brass_eagle

There is a disparity there. I 100% agree. If I were an Ice/Rad controller, I am much more penalized in terms of my mitigation than less offensive means. Despite that my effects are already reduced by enemy levels, resistances, pretty patches... Simply because it is a toggle that targets enemies. Not a click. Makes it a bit more complicated when sets have varying amounts of reliance on said offensive toggles of varying importance. I hadn't thought of it that way. Thanks. Wrong or right it is food for thought.

It is important to factor in recharge time of some of these toggles, I think you are right on that and something I missed. I like it. A toggle has to be recharged to immediately begin toggle-ing persay. Mez time is the tricky wide-range variable here. More often than not, I'm definitely mezzed for a lot longer than 2 seconds and ran out of BFs. Don't get me started on Malta stun (I wasn't even near the group darnit!) However, I do think both of our notes do somewhat miss the point of: "If I'm mezzed for 4 seconds, Radiation Infection with 150% recharge would be up 2 seconds later. With no recharge, 4 seconds later. With this change, 8 seconds." If I'm struggling on a small team against a mez-heavy group, that suspension is going to get reactivated without an interval of the debuff taking affect. Or a group with a long mez for instance. That just doesn't feel right to me, especially when I tested it on my Nature def. It feels kinda bad, and as a player there isn't anything I can do about it. Some toggles on short recharges are more important than others and it goes set by set. Our numbers do tend to lump them together. Which, anecdotally, is exactly what some members don't like about this change. It seems like a trade-off. I don't need both Hurricane and Snowstorm after being mezzed. Probably just Hurricane, might not be worried about Tornado in that moment of panic (LOL!). Or Just Spore Cloud. I don't have to call them important toggles I suppose, but it's clear to me that some of the shorter recharge, but potent offensive-toggles are penalized here. Unless your mezzed for <1s or so. My stance on this change is I want it to be 80/20 positive-negative if it has to be a trade-off. Right now it feels like 55/45 for some sets and 65/35 for others with the 8-second window. Still positive, but I'm losing in areas greatly too. It's an era where 1.73 seconds is too long because its not 1.67. Sorry Bopper! You didn't comment on all that. Just a rant that went on from your Mez duration assumption related to recharge. Mez duration, quite variable. Heh. I'll try to be better. I do think CD/2-2 is an important way to look at it.

True enough. The options to get energy/neg/tox/psi are limited. Cold/fire isn't too bad with winter IOs, but those can be prohibitively expensive. Though Ice Armor (power) only offers res to cold/fire. I don't think my blaster would ever reach 45% def to exotic types without outside help. I'd rely on my team for the boost. Overall, I think that's fine. Exotic types are... exotic. And defense provided a bit more than resistance without this change. They flip side to that is there isn't much in the way to build a small, healthy amount of resistance. Not incrementally small like combat jumping / hover that provide defense to all and you can stack for a decent cushion.

Nothing really new there. Those two masteries have always been the premier choices IMO with a couple exceptions. Here's to hoping there's a QoL pass on some epics in the future. *shrugs* For now, I'll take the change. Step-wise.

So not bad at all. I'm fine with some more mez. Just wouldn't want it to all of a sudden get egregious! Squishy epic shields are S/L after all. Council could use a little more threat anyhow.

Is there a specific reason the fear in Shivers skimps on the duration? Not familiar with scales but in-game power info reads 18.63s for a controller. All other AoE fears read 27.94s in duration. Including the new Symphonic fear. They also come with side-effects (damage/-tohit). To boot the Shivers fear covers less area than all of them -- Shivers (60 ft & 45 degrees) vs. Terrify (60ft & 90 degrees) vs. Fearsome Stare and Dreadful Discord (70ft & 45 degrees). Is it because of the strength / wider area of the slow? The real valuable aspect of that in my mind is the -rech. And that's not enhanceable. I also consider slow Ice's secondary effect, but I guess it is a little stronger in this power.

I'm curious, did you look at how many of those that prioritize more exotic damage types instead of S/L have Mez attached to them? While I'm on board with this change as it gives the devs a chance to make more threatening enemies within trash mobs, I can't help but wonder if it will have a negative effect on the amount of Mez squishies can avoid now--especially at higher levels. Less avoid -- more mez.

Yeah, I can imagine it's probably a pita (if it's even possible) to code as Captain Powerhouse alluded to earlier. My fears were more that I would actively avoid using toggles even If they were in my build to avoid a longer suppression time. Being mezzed is a regular occurrence! Scaling suspension makes some sense, but it also means the more toggles you run the longer you are locked out all that was toggled. Seems like a not fun mechanic, but some could argue that it is fair. However, I quickly did some tabulating of cast times and if the above scenario were true, it would not be a big huge deal for most characters. Or at least as I previously thought. It would just instill a negative playstyle with certain set combinations (in my opinion) along with being a pain to code. As I mentioned, I had some extra time so I quickly tabulated cast times from the test server power description forms. I only considered the four categories that do not have access to permanent, broad-spetrum Mez Protection with SOs and did not consider epics (Pool or AT) for now. Google sheets link is below for anyone interested in the full list. It's nothing fancy. What IS interesting is the archetype most affected by this change is a Controller, as they are the only archetype to have offensive toggles in both Primary and Secondary with quite extensive summed cast times as @Burk gave examples of earlier in the thread. Support sets are the only category to have multiple offensive toggles per powerset so they got a special table. Important take-aways: The average cast time per power out of these categories is 1.8s. No other category listed has more than 1 offensive toggle besides support. Nature Affinity has the highest total cast time at 5.13s with 2 toggles (It's not Rad? See undocumented changes to Radiation Infection cast time on Brainstorm??) Edit: someone pointed out to me that it is documented in the miscellaneous changes section. See: "Radiation Infection (All, except Crey): Cast time reduced from 3.1s to 1.5s." TOTALLY missed it -- but I love it. The average total cast time per support set is 3.0s. I think it's fair to say that, unless I've forgotten something major, a suspension window of 8 seconds is a bit long. It would be fair to make some judgements / assumptions for the suspension window like say "assuming 2 toggles at an average 2s cast time (rounding)" -- we assume 4 seconds toggle suspension and if you fall below that it's because of free actions not spent re-toggling... or something like that. Oh also, if I've forgotten powers let me know. Just did this up quickly while making din-din. Linky: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1A2Mbxzb9JJqiw_aCT2RlPFXMMgHCro15-SaVBZfZgqo/edit?usp=sharing

I think this is a fantastic step forward for squishy ATs. Let’s be honest, this change is for them. Non-squishies won't be mezzed in an overwhelming majority of scenarios. Regardless of what is decided for this specific change, I’m going to love it right up there with the “Anchors will remain active on defeated targets.” However, I would like to throw my name into the “8-seconds is too long / punishing” hat for a few reasons: The player is locked out of potentially important survival tools for 8-seconds in addition to the time spent mezzed (while the time spent mezzed may be even shorter than that). The length of the suspension window assumes I will re-toggle all offensive toggles with activation times adding up to around 8-seconds despite the re-toggling time will often be much lower on a large portion of squishy builds (@Burk did some examples). The suspension window is long enough that it will hinder player agency from choosing which toggled effects may be immediately important after being freed from mez. Let me give you an example from one of my mains, a Nature defender: My character only has two offensive toggles: Entangling Aura and Spore Cloud (2.03 and 3.10 activation times respectively. I play them at a wide range of levels, solo and team. This is what happens when I am freed from mez, whether I wait it out or use a break free. If I am mezzed while at range of enemies, I’ll want to immediately toggle Spore Cloud if there is still a decent amount of danger. If I am mezzed while near melee taking advantage of Entangling Aura’s hold, two different things will happen. If there is a boss or a dangerous LT, I will hit Spore Cloud and decide best course of action from there. If it’s just a handful of minions and LTs, I’ll hit Entangling Aura. The above scenario is my usual play on live and was my experience running +1 x4 against some mobs on test. In either scenario, I am locked out of these toggles for an additional 5-6 seconds. That’s another 5-6 seconds to get hit with another mez without my -ToHit barrier. Spore Cloud is one of my most important survival tools as a Nature defender that often tips the balance between having to heal and having time to do some damage. I didn’t test extensively, but that was just my experience. The re-toggling was a boon and I had time for other actions, but I lost out on a few important moments of debuffing and got remezzed a couple of times / had to heal. It’s strange to think we can be talking about a few seconds here sometimes! While all points still technically stand if the window was shortened, the importance of the discrepancies / problems become less of a negative aspect and more of a positive one. CoH has always been binary about mez, and it can be frustrating on squishy builds that rely on toggles (rather than long duration clicks). Personal opinion here – I’d rather more positive be gained from this specific change to an archaic design than it turn into “trade-offs”. Powersets like Radiation, Nature, Storm, etc… may already have to re-toggle multiple times a fight and that can end up hindering the fun / value playing those sets. They already have to cast some of their offensive anchors (non-player-based) every fight anyway, and most of these anchors range between 2 and-a-whopping 3.17 seconds (that being said, not to having to re-toggle them is great). That’s one of the reasons that makes Trick Arrow so great and less frustrating. Long duration, click, wide-area, for a similar if not better effect. Time as well even though it has Time’s Juncture. That cast is only .67 of a second though. The set that will benefit the most here would probably be Radiation Emission. And I’m okay with that. It’s been famously strong since the game’s inception, but it is kind-of a clunky set compared to modern standards. And it can be not-so-fun to play having to constantly re-toggle. On my rad’s I even have to re-toggle when the darn anchor runs away from the group! Suspension Window Scaling Someone mentioned the idea of making the suspension window the sum of the cast times of all offensive toggles. I am not on board with this idea. I do not want a reason to skip or not use a slightly-underperforming offensive toggle in fear of being mezzed and extending the suspension window of something else. As a Storm, I would not want to hesitate to use Snow Storm just because I’m afraid Hurricane will be suppressed that much longer. And I would never, ever take World of Confusion on a controller again (even though it looks neat)! I don’t know if this is possible code-wise, but if so I humbly ask that devs don’t go this route. Toggle suspension window scaling seems to be a silly thing that would instill negative experience for struggling sets/powers. I don’t have a suggestion on the length of the suspension window, these are just my thoughts! I'll probably be happy with any improvement really.

Bopper, you are probably right, and I am mis-remembering seeing the +100% recharge in combat attributes. Either way, it does look like one or the other is bugged (likely the display). Though +10% ToHit per target is pretty juicy. I don't remember that.

Cross Punch in the fighting power pool appears to no longer be granting the intended +100% recharge bonus when owning both Kick and Punch. Instead, it grants +10% per target hit (for a max of +50% if you manage to hit all of the targets). See below (1 & 3 targets hit): I know before it worked as advertised in the power detailed info: I have been able to reproduce it on my one other character that has Cross Punch and owns both Kick and Punch. EDIT: Upon further testing it appears the ToHit bonus also has become target dependent:

Yeah. I've compiled a list of things that are my concerns. They are based off of yours and others listed here. It's a useless thing. Without a "global balancing" of endurance usage and endurance pools of enemies... yeah. Hmm. I do feel like disruption arrow needs something else. Even if it's just a 50%chance for mag 2 disorient. Something. And I would have used an expletive synonymous with crap. xD

Also following @summersexample, I'm interested to know what people think about the Disruption Arrow's -5 MaxEnd. It seems like a tack-on to me to make it IO viable. This is if it were working (btw). I think it should either be stronger or replaced. Some enemies have 200 or over endurance standard. I just do not see the value in it other than IOs. If that's what it is. It is what it is.

Thanks, @Summers for steering a different way! Lost myself a bit in frustration. But I think you are right. The DeBuffs just aren't up to par for late game. I'm hoping that we can bring attention to this while the set is in the spotlight. During the normal game, those fast cast times are amazing. And should all stay below 1.5s xD

I do think it is strange that a blaster nuke that can wipe a close to a whole spawn should have close to or less than the recharge of a gimmick power. It's not Burn. No one is farming.

-strength in Def is the ability to provide a Defense buff. -res in Def is the ability to take more or less from Defense debuffs as I understand it. But I was also asking, my original question, if -Def Debuff Res should be in Acid Arrow. Thank you for actually reading.

I don't think so. How do I add an image....

I am referring to Defense debuff resistance. Like what is in SR, EA, etc.. toggles. But a negative effect. Something to make defense debuffs stronger. Or CC's last longer... e.g. Stun resistance but not protection.

No that is -strength, not -res.

Thank you much, Bopper, for clarifying. It's a "new" idea to me this -debuff resistance. But I like it. I think it is a step in the right direction to bring support back to glory. 🙂 Testing now and gathering thoughts. The only one I have to share now: Should this power have -defense debuff resistance? That is missing. Or CC -res.

So I did see that it has -40% resistance to regeneration, so this mean that -regen debuffs are more effective? Or is there an actual -regen debuff. Can someone clarify for me?

Poison's is not only a debuff set. It does have a ST heal, and a rez. Whether or not they are worth taking is... debatable. At any rate this is about TA buffs. Poison may get looked at at a later date. It needs it. (Edit: spelling)

I guess that's true, but that's also pretty hard to do in most applications I think. However, that won't be the case with Ice Arrow. Again that's a Poison Problem.

The aoe for Weaken is quite small and only half the value for other targets. But Poison needs a looking at anyway.

I really like this idea. The buff still centers around the target but also affects the caster at any distance. Let's this very ranged set stay at ranged if it wants benefit.