New Armor set: Protective Armor

[Puma]

Protective Armor:
You use a mixture of gadgets and specialty body armor to survive even the most dangerous situations.  This armor is light weight, allowing you to move more freely and exert less energy, though it offers less protection than other armor sets.  As you grow in power, however, you will be able to upgrade many of your powers, making them more effective. 

 

Tier 1:  Treated Leather: [auto] You wear a specially treated leather, giving you resistance to smashing, lethal, and cold damage.  This power is always on and its lightweight nature costs no endurance. +9% res  s/l/c 

Tier 2:  Thermal coating:  [auto] You wear a thermal layer that makes you resistant to fire and cold attacks. This power is always on and costs no endurance.  + 9% res F/C

Tier 3:  metal beads: [Targeted AoE] You scatter small, round beads on the ground around you which have a high chance of knocking down nearby foes. 

Tier 3:  Adrenal shot:  [click] You carry a specialty blend of adrenaline that you can use to boost your regeneration and give you strong resistance to status effect powers.  self heal (25%), +regen (100%) /Status protection.  The status protection of this power does not stack. 

Tier 4:  Enhance body armor:  [Toggle] You upgrade your layers of protective armor.  This power increases the effectiveness of your treated leather and thermal coating, drastically increasing their effectiveness. It also lightens the weight of your conductive fibers and bracers, reducing their endurance cost and slightly increasing their effectiveness.  You line some of your metal beads with razors, giving them a chance for lethal damage to foes who are knocked down. Likewise your Adrenal shot now grants you resistance to psionic damage.  Self +Res for both Treated Leather and thermal coating to 22.5% Res each, +7.5% Def to bracers.+special

Tier 5:  Conductive Fibers:  [toggle] You line the outside of your armor with a special conductive fiber, which absorbs energy and negative energy attacks. +22.5% Res Energy/Neg

Tier 6: Bracers:  [toggle] You wear durable bracers on both your arms and legs giving you defense to smashing and lethal attacks.   +5% Def S/L 

Tier 7: Charged fibers: [click 1 min duration, 2 min recharge] You release the energy your conductive fibers have absorbed, making lining of your armor become charged for a brief period.  Any enemies in melee range may be briefly stunned when trying to attack you and suffer minor energy damage. Mag 2 stun, minor dmg nrg. 

Tier 8: Smoke flash: [click, 20 second duration, 45 second recharge] You throw a smoke bomb at your foes. This smoke bomb blinds even the most perceptive foes, making you difficult to spot.  Even if spotted, you will gain some defense to all attacks until the smoke wears off. -7.5 tohit foe.  Self +3.5% Def all. The effect s of this power do not stack with multiple applications.   

Tier 9: Gangbuster:  [click, 120 second duration, 480s recharge] For two minutes you push yourself to the limit, without concern for the damage done to you or your armor.  While going gangbuster you become highly resistant to all damage.  Your recharge and recovery are both increased, and your damage is increased slightly.  After 2 minutes your armor will give way and you will lose some hit points and endurance.   Self +Resistance, +rech, +recovery, +dmg.  -25% Hp, End after 120 seconds.  



The uniqueness of the set is it is an incredibly low -end cost armor set, but that comes at the expense of effectiveness at early levels.  Instead your survivability will depend on utilizing the sets three crowd control powers and the ability to upgrade your equipment later on.  The upgrades move you closer to other sets, while also decreasing your endurance costs and adding a small damage aura effect to your metal beads. This would be a fun pairing with thematic sets like Street Justice or Martial Arts, but also a nice pairing with sets that are endurance heavy like stone melee or Titan Weapons.  

Edited October 21, 2019 by Puma

[Steampunkette]

So... For a Scrapper/Brute/Stalker those Auto Resistance powers are going to offer up 7.5% Damage Resistance. 11.25% slotted with SOs. Defense autos are at 3.75%.

 

Toggles typically provide 22.5% Resistance or 12.75% defense (Typed. Positional is 13.88%)

 

So we're looking at a baseline of:

 

7.5% S/L/F Resistance

14.5% Cold Resistance

22.5% E/N Resistance

 

12.75% S/L Defense

 

This character would get -destroyed- in basically any normal content. They'd be marginally more durable than your average low level blaster. Barring a near 800% benefit increase from the Treated Leather power (Boosting it from 7.5% to 60%) you're going to be having simply the -worst- time. And if the power was increasing the 7.5% resistance power up to 60% it would be -way- too powerful to also have a ton of other effects tied to it. It's just an unreasonable expectation of power increase.

 

Also there's no way for CoH to do Retributive Damage based on the player taking damage. The game doesn't track the required information to make it work.

[srmalloy]

Also, just as a niggling detail, if Metal Beads are scattered "around you", it's a PBAoE, not a Targeted AoE.

[Haijinx]

Think it was supposed to be like Caltrops.

[Haijinx]

The set described is sort of like a resisty version of ninjitsu without stealth.

[Puma]

16 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

So... For a Scrapper/Brute/Stalker those Auto Resistance powers are going to offer up 7.5% Damage Resistance. 11.25% slotted with SOs. Defense autos are at 3.75%.

 

Toggles typically provide 22.5% Resistance or 12.75% defense (Typed. Positional is 13.88%)

 

So we're looking at a baseline of:

 

7.5% S/L/F Resistance

14.5% Cold Resistance

22.5% E/N Resistance

 

12.75% S/L Defense

 

This character would get -destroyed- in basically any normal content. They'd be marginally more durable than your average low level blaster. Barring a near 800% benefit increase from the Treated Leather power (Boosting it from 7.5% to 60%) you're going to be having simply the -worst- time. And if the power was increasing the 7.5% resistance power up to 60% it would be -way- too powerful to also have a ton of other effects tied to it. It's just an unreasonable expectation of power increase.

 

Also there's no way for CoH to do Retributive Damage based on the player taking damage. The game doesn't track the required information to make it work.


Actually, the autos are 7.5% damage on other sets. Nothing says that they must be for this set.  But as stated, this set requires you to utilize crowd control methods, not just stand there and take it like other sets. You'd basically have "ice patch" in the metal beads, which is excellent mitigation, have a strong -tohit/stealth feature with the smoke bomb that also grants self defense, and have enemies attacking you get stunned, functioning like a slightly weaker version of dark's stun aura without the HP penalty.  And I dont know where on earth you're coming  up with a need to get to 60% resistance without enhancements.  Most resistance based sets don't come near that.  Coupled with a strong heal/regeneration power, and I think it actually could work.  It's similar in concept to fire, not being as outright sturdy but relying on a strong regen boost and mitigation (fire uses damage, this uses status effects).  

The numbers might need to be adjusted.  But if they started with a base of 10% resistance, upping to 15% after your armor upgrade, before enhancements. You'd have 15% S/:L/F resistance unenhanced, 22.5% E/N unenhanced, 30% cold unenhanced, 12.5% s/l defense unenhanced, plus the +10% defense to all from smoke bomb unenhanced (stacked with enemy tohit), plus two forms of mitigation, and a clickable heal/regen boost.  

It's not going to able to tank Recluse...but not all armor sets should.  

 

Edited October 18, 2019 by Puma

[Puma]

3 hours ago, Haijinx said:

The set described is sort of like a resisty version of ninjitsu without stealth.

IT technically has a stealth, only it's not a stealth toggle, but a smoke grenade that also grants a +temporary defense buff alongside the foe tohit.  

[Steampunkette]

13 minutes ago, Puma said:

Actually, the autos are 7.5% damage on other sets. Nothing says that they must be for this set.  But as stated, this set requires you to utilize crowd control methods, not just stand there and take it like other sets. You'd basically have "ice patch" in the metal beads, which is excellent mitigation, have a strong -tohit/stealth feature with the smoke bomb that also grants self defense, and have enemies attacking you get stunned, functioning like a slightly weaker version of dark's stun aura without the HP penalty.  And I dont know where on earth you're coming  up with a need to get to 60% resistance without enhancements.  Most resistance based sets don't come near that.  Coupled with a strong heal/regeneration power, and I think it actually could work.  It's similar in concept to fire, not being as outright sturdy but relying on a strong regen boost and mitigation (fire uses damage, this uses status effects).  

The numbers might need to be adjusted.  But if they started with a base of 10% resistance, upping to 15% after your armor upgrade, before enhancements. You'd have 15% S/:L/F resistance unenhanced, 22.5% E/N unenhanced, 30% cold unenhanced, 12.5% s/l defense unenhanced, plus the +10% defense to all from smoke bomb unenhanced (stacked with enemy tohit), plus two forms of mitigation, and a clickable heal/regen boost.  

It's not going to able to tank Recluse...but not all armor sets should.  

Autos are 7.5% because it's Standardized. Because you're not spending any endurance on it, 7.5% is what you get based on the balancing metrics the Devs put into the game in the first place. Yeah, we could break the rules for your specific set to spend almost no endurance whatsoever... but why -should- we? So you can have a set whose gimmick is "Low End Cost"? We've got Regen and we've got Bio Armor and we've got Willpower. We're covered on that gimmick. All of them, by the way, also have good defensive values.

 

And nah, I'm not saying "Without Enhancements". I'm saying 60% for a Scrapper/Brute as an SO Baseline would be cool. Strong enough to over halfway resist the most common damage type in the game.

 

And Controls are all 'Fun' but there's a variety of enemies that Stealth and Debuffs have minimal effect on. Also Bosses and EBs.

 

Unless you're intending this armor set to be used -exclusively- by Scrappers and Stalkers who just feel like being basically defenseless, it's got to be able to tank Recluse as a Defense Set for Brutes and Tanks. Yes, all of them should be able to tank AVs. Every Tanker should reasonably be able to fill that role in a group. Solo him? Heck no! But stand toe to toe with him (Or 15 basic Council Mobs or whatever) with nothing but SOs? Yeah.

 

The concept (Armor set that is just normal armor in concept rather than superdodging or setting yourself on fire or something) is cool beans, to me. But your implementation is /Jranger.

[Haijinx]

Most of the armors aren't specific to the extent of materials used, etc.  

 

So you could conceivably have 

Invul

WP

Energy Aura 

etc

That are all Tech Body Suits ala batman/iron man.

 

I think things are left roughly vague to accommodate multiple concepts   

[Puma]

7 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Autos are 7.5% because it's Standardized. Because you're not spending any endurance on it, 7.5% is what you get based on the balancing metrics the Devs put into the game in the first place. Yeah, we could break the rules for your specific set to spend almost no endurance whatsoever... but why -should- we? So you can have a set whose gimmick is "Low End Cost"? We've got Regen and we've got Bio Armor and we've got Willpower. We're covered on that gimmick. All of them, by the way, also have good defensive values.

 

And nah, I'm not saying "Without Enhancements". I'm saying 60% for a Scrapper/Brute as an SO Baseline would be cool. Strong enough to over halfway resist the most common damage type in the game.

 

And Controls are all 'Fun' but there's a variety of enemies that Stealth and Debuffs have minimal effect on. Also Bosses and EBs.

 

Unless you're intending this armor set to be used -exclusively- by Scrappers and Stalkers who just feel like being basically defenseless, it's got to be able to tank Recluse as a Defense Set for Brutes and Tanks. Yes, all of them should be able to tank AVs. Every Tanker should reasonably be able to fill that role in a group. Solo him? Heck no! But stand toe to toe with him (Or 15 basic Council Mobs or whatever) with nothing but SOs? Yeah.

 

The concept (Armor set that is just normal armor in concept rather than superdodging or setting yourself on fire or something) is cool beans, to me. But your implementation is /Jranger.

This is false.   Armor sets all have varying degrees to their armors and unique gimmicks.   Hardened Carapace gives 18.75% res to S/L, while Dark Embrace gives 22.5%.  Charged armor gives 26.5% S/L resists.  Dampening Field in Energy Aura gives 9.38% resistance to S/L and 7.5% Energy...and it's an auto power.  Proton Armor gives a 30% res to Energy/Fire etc.  Toggles hover anywhere from 18.5%-30%, in other words, and auto powers also have variation already.  Auto powers right now vary from 5.63% resistance to 9.38% resistance.  The degrees armor powers give is different depending on their respective sets, and each set also has unique aspects to it to work in combo with those differences.  Bio makes up for that smaller amount in its toggle by a "gimmick" toggle that adds res per enemy nearby, an entirely unique concept (though +def per enemy exists in other sets). Did they "break the rules"for their specific gimmick there? And Dark relies on two status effect powers and a heal as well, and is a fine set, even though it's not top tier.  Not every set can be Rad or Bio indestructible, nor should they.  You stated Def autos were only 3.75% but according to Mids, SR's autos are 5.63%, and are positional, not typed, making that even more powerful.  Even Def autos vary in degree depending on the set. 

As for overall survivability, compare the numbers on this set to Willpower.  You'd actually have more overall res on this set, more def, less regen though you get a click heal component, and in exchange for the -tohit being in a taunt aura you get it in smoke grenade.  


Here is a side by side comparison between Willpower and Protective Armor:

Willpower:  
High Pain Tolerance   Auto: Self +Res(All), +Max Health    5.63% Res
Mind Over Body   Toggle: Self +Res(Smash, Lethal, Psionic)   16.88 Res
Fast Healing   Auto: Self +Regen   75% Regen
Indomitable Will    Toggle: Self +DEF(Psionic), +Res(Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Fear, Confusion, Knockback)
Rise to the Challenge   Toggle: PBAoE, Foe -To Hit, Self +Regen    +26% Regen (stacking to 250%)  Foe -3.75% tohit
Quick Recovery    Auto: Self +Recovery
Heightened Senses   Toggle: Self +DEF(All DMG but Psionics), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Perception  (2.48% Def)
Resurgence   Self Rez, +Recovery, +DMG, +To Hit, +Recharge
Strength of Will   Self +Res(All, Disorient, Sleep, Hold, Immobilize, Knockback), +Recovery

 

Protective Armor: 

Tier 1:  Treated Leather: [auto]  +res  s/l/c  10% Res  increasing to 15% with EBA

Tier 2:  Thermal coating:  [auto] +res F/C   10% Res increasing to 15% with EBA

Tier 3:  metal beads: [Targeted AoE] Foe Knockdown 

Tier 3:  Adrenal shot:  [click] self heal, +regen/Status protection  25% heal, +75% Regen,  +15% Res Psy with EBA

Tier 4:  Metal Fibers:  [toggle]+Res Energy/Neg  Res 20%  increasting to 22.5% with EBA

Tier 5:  Bracers:  [toggle]+Def S/L Def  5% Defense increasing to 7.5% with EBA.  

Tier 6:  Enhance body armor:  [auto] You upgrade your layers of protective armor.  This power increases the effectiveness of your treated leather and thermal coating, drastically increasing their effectiveness. It also lightens the weight of your conductive fibers and bracers, reducing their endurance cost and slightly increasing their effectiveness.  You line some of your metal beads with razors, giving them a chance for lethal damage to foes who are knocked down. Likewise your Adrenal shot now grants you resistance to psionic damage.  +special

Tier 7: Charged fibers: [click- PBAoE stun.]

Tier 8: Smoke flash: [click, 15 second duration, 45 second recharge] .  Foe -7.5% tohit, self +3.5% Def all.  

Tier 9: Gangbuster:  [click, 120 second duration, 480s recharge]   Self +Resistance, +rech, +recovery, +dmg.  -25% Hp, End after 120 seconds.  

 

 

Those do not look insanely out of line to me at all.  As a matter of fact, I wanted to make the "gimmick" (I prefer the term flavor) of this set to be both a lower end cost and a +recharge boost since you can move more easily and freely, but thought the +recharge would be overpowered.  Having such small end costs coupled with much of your protection coming from auto powers that don't require click management like Regen and can't toggle drop is benefit enough, I think.  

Now, the numbers above could be adjusted, and if you thought it would be "better" we could make either treated leather or thermal coating a toggle, but then I'd want to add back in the +recharge concept.  

Edited October 18, 2019 by Puma

[Steampunkette]

1 hour ago, Puma said:

This is false.   Armor sets all have varying degrees to their armors and unique gimmicks.   Hardened Carapace gives 18.75% res to S/L, while Dark Embrace gives 22.5%.  Charged armor gives 26.5% S/L resists.  Dampening Field in Energy Aura gives 9.38% resistance to S/L and 7.5% Energy...and it's an auto power.  Proton Armor gives a 30% res to Energy/Fire etc.  Toggles hover anywhere from 18.5%-30%, in other words, and auto powers also have variation already.  Auto powers right now vary from 5.63% resistance to 9.38% resistance.  The degrees armor powers give is different depending on their respective sets, and each set also has unique aspects to it to work in combo with those differences.  Bio makes up for that smaller amount in its toggle by a "gimmick" toggle that adds res per enemy nearby, an entirely unique concept (though +def per enemy exists in other sets). Did they "break the rules"for their specific gimmick there? And Dark relies on two status effect powers and a heal as well, and is a fine set, even though it's not top tier.  Not every set can be Rad or Bio indestructible, nor should they.  You stated Def autos were only 3.75% but according to Mids, SR's autos are 5.63%, and are positional, not typed, making that even more powerful.  Even Def autos vary in degree depending on the set. 

As for overall survivability, compare the numbers on this set to Willpower.  You'd actually have more overall res on this set, more def, less regen though you get a click heal component, and in exchange for the -tohit being in a taunt aura you get it in smoke grenade.  


Here is a side by side comparison between Willpower and Protective Armor:

Willpower:  
High Pain Tolerance   Auto: Self +Res(All), +Max Health    5.63% Res
Mind Over Body   Toggle: Self +Res(Smash, Lethal, Psionic)   16.88 Res
Fast Healing   Auto: Self +Regen   75% Regen
Indomitable Will    Toggle: Self +DEF(Psionic), +Res(Disorient, Hold, Sleep, Fear, Confusion, Knockback)
Rise to the Challenge   Toggle: PBAoE, Foe -To Hit, Self +Regen    +26% Regen (stacking to 250%)  Foe -3.75% tohit
Quick Recovery    Auto: Self +Recovery
Heightened Senses   Toggle: Self +DEF(All DMG but Psionics), +Res(DEF Debuff), +Perception  (2.48% Def)
Resurgence   Self Rez, +Recovery, +DMG, +To Hit, +Recharge
Strength of Will   Self +Res(All, Disorient, Sleep, Hold, Immobilize, Knockback), +Recovery

 

Protective Armor: 

Tier 1:  Treated Leather: [auto]  +res  s/l/c  10% Res  increasing to 15% with EBA

Tier 2:  Thermal coating:  [auto] +res F/C   10% Res increasing to 15% with EBA

Tier 3:  metal beads: [Targeted AoE] Foe Knockdown 

Tier 3:  Adrenal shot:  [click] self heal, +regen/Status protection  25% heal, +75% Regen,  +15% Res Psy with EBA

Tier 4:  Metal Fibers:  [toggle]+Res Energy/Neg  Res 20%  increasting to 22.5% with EBA

Tier 5:  Bracers:  [toggle]+Def S/L Def  5% Defense increasing to 7.5% with EBA.  

Tier 6:  Enhance body armor:  [auto] You upgrade your layers of protective armor.  This power increases the effectiveness of your treated leather and thermal coating, drastically increasing their effectiveness. It also lightens the weight of your conductive fibers and bracers, reducing their endurance cost and slightly increasing their effectiveness.  You line some of your metal beads with razors, giving them a chance for lethal damage to foes who are knocked down. Likewise your Adrenal shot now grants you resistance to psionic damage.  +special

Tier 7: Charged fibers: [click- PBAoE stun.]

Tier 8: Smoke flash: [click, 15 second duration, 45 second recharge] .  Foe -7.5% tohit, self +3.5% Def all.  

Tier 9: Gangbuster:  [click, 120 second duration, 480s recharge]   Self +Resistance, +rech, +recovery, +dmg.  -25% Hp, End after 120 seconds.  

 

 

Those do not look insanely out of line to me at all.  As a matter of fact, I wanted to make the "gimmick" (I prefer the term flavor) of this set to be both a lower end cost and a +recharge boost since you can move more easily and freely, but thought the +recharge would be overpowered.  Having such small end costs coupled with much of your protection coming from auto powers that don't require click management like Regen and can't toggle drop is benefit enough, I think.  

Now, the numbers above could be adjusted, and if you thought it would be "better" we could make either treated leather or thermal coating a toggle, but then I'd want to add back in the +recharge concept.  

Level 50 Scrapper with SOs:

22.5% Resistance to S/L/F.

45% Resistance to Cold.

33.75% Resistance to Nrg/Neg.

22.5% Resistance to Psionic.

11.25% Defense to S/L.

 

16hp/sec regen (Including Unslotted Health)

 

This is the durability of your average cobweb at 50. And they'll be setting aside their damage dealing for 3-7 seconds near the start of every fight on Flashbangs, Caltrops, Self Healing, and Stuns to try and survive the Alpha Strike of any group.

 

Yeah, Puma, there are cases where the Standardization is put aside to fit Concept. Hardened Carapace has part of it's bonus deferred so that the Defensive Toggle can boost it up, the Efficient Toggle can shift Healing up, and the Offensive Toggle can be good for dishing out the DPS. And yeah, some powers have lower values from their Autopowers... Those powers tend to cover 3-5 different things (Or in the case of the 5.63% example: EVERYTHING plus some extra HP).

 

Wanna know why Radiation Armor gets the 30% Fire/Cold/Nrg/Neg toggle? Look at the entire set. Instead of having a series of toggles and autopowers that provide comprehensive defenses the set relies on 2 Toggles (Okay, 3 if you count the Mez Protection providing a token amount of Psi/Toxic) to provide all the defense boost it's going to get. Everything else is a Click Gimmick, Self Heal, or a Damage Toggle. It relies more on damage deferral (Absorb) and damage recovery (Regen/Healing) than it's defensive values. Those things work in fights with AVs. Caltrops won't. Stuns won't. Smokebombs won't.

 

I'm saying it's not going to have enough defensive ability. A Tanker with this set needs to be able to stand to to toe with an AV because all the other Tankers can. As it stands? 

 

Someone using this powerset would become very familiar with the different textures and patterns of Paragon Office Carpets.

 

Edited October 18, 2019 by Steampunkette

[Puma]

8 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

Level 50 Scrapper with SOs:

22.5% Resistance to S/L/F.

45% Resistance to Cold.

33.75% Resistance to Nrg/Neg.

22.5% Resistance to Psionic.

11.25% Defense to S/L.

 

16hp/sec regen (Including Unslotted Health)

 

This is the durability of your average cobweb at 50. And they'll be setting aside their damage dealing for 3-7 seconds near the start of every fight on Flashbangs, Caltrops, Self Healing, and Stuns to try and survive the Alpha Strike of any group.

 

Yeah, Puma, there are cases where the Standardization is put aside to fit Concept. Hardened Carapace has part of it's bonus deferred so that the Defensive Toggle can boost it up, the Efficient Toggle can shift Healing up, and the Offensive Toggle can be good for dishing out the DPS. And yeah, some powers have lower values from their Autopowers... Those powers tend to cover 3-5 different things (Or in the case of the 5.63% example: EVERYTHING plus some extra HP).

 

Wanna know why Radiation Armor gets the 30% Fire/Cold/Nrg/Neg toggle? Look at the entire set. Instead of having a series of toggles and autopowers that provide comprehensive defenses the set relies on 2 Toggles (Okay, 3 if you count the Mez Protection providing a token amount of Psi/Toxic) to provide all the defense boost it's going to get. Everything else is a Click Gimmick, Self Heal, or a Damage Toggle. It relies more on damage deferral (Absorb) and damage recovery (Regen/Healing) than it's defensive values. Those things work in fights with AVs. Caltrops won't. Stuns won't. Smokebombs won't.

 

I'm saying it's not going to have enough defensive ability. A Tanker with this set needs to be able to stand to to toe with an AV because all the other Tankers can. As it stands? 

 

Someone using this powerset would become very familiar with the different textures and patterns of Paragon Office Carpets.

 

Here are Willpower's numbers on SOs for Scrappers according to Mids

35.1%  Resistance S/L

32.2% Resistance Psi

15.2% Def E/N/F/C

11.7% Def Psy

 

48/regen per sec 

 

vs

 

Level 50 Scrapper with SOs:

22.5% Resistance to S/L/F.

45% Resistance to Cold.

33.75% Resistance to Nrg/Neg.

22.5% Resistance to Psionic.

11.25% Defense to S/L.

16hp/sec regen (Including Unslotted Health)

But WP gets no self heal, a weaker -tohit, and no crowd control.  

So the defense this set gets with S/L is equal to the defense WP gets to all elemental attacks, but it also gets 22% resistance on top of that.  Would you want to see the defense from Bracers increased? What do you think would make this somehow more "sturdy".  

I could see an argument for upping the regeneration rate given by Adrenal Shot, but don't want to entirely replace the heal effect. 

 

Perhaps you could add an "absorb" element to "metal fibers" or replace metal beads with "Impact Resistant Coating" that gives a +absorb affect/chance for knockdown, where foes are knocked back by the impacts of their attacks. I really don't think this would need it though, and think you're really underestimating how it might perform.  Willpower is considered an excellent set, and its numbers really aren't that out of whack with what we're seeing here, only trading a chunk of its regen and resistance of S/L for debuff/crowd control, S/L defense, and a self heal.  Its less set and forget than Willpower, with more variety in what you can do for survival, similar to Dark Armor. 

 

 

[Steampunkette]

21 minutes ago, Puma said:

Here are Willpower's numbers on SOs for Scrappers according to Mids

35.1%  Resistance S/L

32.2% Resistance Psi

15.2% Def E/N/F/C

11.7% Def Psy

 

48/regen per sec 

 

vs

 

Level 50 Scrapper with SOs:

22.5% Resistance to S/L/F.

45% Resistance to Cold.

33.75% Resistance to Nrg/Neg.

22.5% Resistance to Psionic.

11.25% Defense to S/L.

16hp/sec regen (Including Unslotted Health)

But WP gets no self heal, a weaker -tohit, and no crowd control.  

So the defense this set gets with S/L is equal to the defense WP gets to all elemental attacks, but it also gets 22% resistance on top of that.  Would you want to see the defense from Bracers increased? What do you think would make this somehow more "sturdy".  

I could see an argument for upping the regeneration rate given by Adrenal Shot, but don't want to entirely replace the heal effect. 

 

Perhaps you could add an "absorb" element to "metal fibers" or replace metal beads with "Impact Resistant Coating" that gives a +absorb affect/chance for knockdown, where foes are knocked back by the impacts of their attacks. I really don't think this would need it though, and think you're really underestimating how it might perform.  Willpower is considered an excellent set, and its numbers really aren't that out of whack with what we're seeing here, only trading a chunk of its regen and resistance of S/L for debuff/crowd control, S/L defense, and a self heal.  Its less set and forget than Willpower, with more variety in what you can do for survival, similar to Dark Armor. 

 

 

Yeah... my numbers are a little different. Assuming full saturation, and unslotted health, the Willpower character has 968% Regen which is 69.96 HP/Second and a max HP of 1733. They also have an end recovery of 3.06/second and a self-rez to play into their survivability. They also get a ToHIt debuffs baked into their Taunt aura which is useless against AVs but provides a 5.85 ToHit debuff giving them more "Defense" after a fashion that you don't seem to be accounting for.

 

They also have a Tier 9 that jumps them up to 64.4% S/L Resistance, 46.8% Psionic, and 23.4% everything else.

 

The powerset on it's face takes about 1/3rd of the damage anyone without a defensive powerset would typically take, recovers vastly more quickly than most sets with a bit of running, and it's T9, while on a long cooldown, has the lightest slap on the wrist crash in the game since it also provides a further 30% Recovery while it's up (3.56 end/sec)

 

 

And I can't stress this enough: This is the weakest defensive powerset in the game. Without IOs and Sets it's tissue thin and swift to drop if you're not playing defensively. With Tough, Weave, Combat Jumping, and Set Bonuses? It shines like a crazy diamond 'cause it just does not run out of endurance...

 

You're aiming -below- that, and shifting toward Debuffs and Controls. I get the impetus... I just think you've gone about it the wrong way. Aiming for Autopowers as a basis isn't the way to go.

 

[Megajoule]

There are plenty of "armor" sets already in the game.  Pick one, and a costume for your character that fits your concept.

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Megajoule said:

There are plenty of "armor" sets already in the game.  Pick one, and a costume for your character that fits your concept.

Ninjitsu might be the closest to this concept.  Its defense instead of resist, but it has a lot of these utility powers in some form. 

 

A more layered more resisty Nijitsu style set with regen instead of self heal and some different flavor util powers might be fun though.  Since i can only think of the one utility style armor set. 

 

It would need to be carefully balanced as Steampunkette is suggesting. 

 

Protective armor won't work as a name though.  It would need to be more stylistic to match within the current framework.  Some tech analog to Ninjitsu.  

 

There are powers out there you could leverage into this as well from devices or munitions mastery.  

 

 

[FDR's Think Tank]

Pair the set down to a power pool set. Think of it as 5 to 6 powers... maybe a specific power like Force of Will Jump that has a secondary power while active. It could even be one of the Prestige Power Pools, incompatible with the other planned sets.

 

Then the numbers aren't such a crunch and anyone can use it to toughen up.

 

Honestly, since they gave everyone the Basic Fitness Power Pool for free, there has been less ways to differentiate between builds. I wouldn't mind an advanced Fitness set... but this sounds like fun too!

 

It could be like of the opposite of Boxing.... defensive powers that increase your melee abilities.

 

Since many classes with defense take extra defensive powers anyway, this would simply give them different ways of reaching defensive softcaps and caps.

[Steampunkette]

47 minutes ago, FDR's Think Tank said:

Pair the set down to a power pool set. Think of it as 5 to 6 powers... maybe a specific power like Force of Will Jump that has a secondary power while active. It could even be one of the Prestige Power Pools, incompatible with the other planned sets.

 

Then the numbers aren't such a crunch and anyone can use it to toughen up.

 

Honestly, since they gave everyone the Basic Fitness Power Pool for free, there has been less ways to differentiate between builds. I wouldn't mind an advanced Fitness set... but this sounds like fun too!

 

It could be like of the opposite of Boxing.... defensive powers that increase your melee abilities.

 

Since many classes with defense take extra defensive powers anyway, this would simply give them different ways of reaching defensive softcaps and caps.

Ohhhhh that's -brilliant-!

 

Tanker getting 6% Resistance from a Body Armor autopower, Scrappers getting 4.5% Resistance on an Autopower... It's not a TON but it could mean the difference between Capping S/L or not.

 

Could also play with Permanent Damage buffs? Things like "Reinforced Stikes" autopower that add +5% damage. Or even typed damage, so Reinforced Strikes only adds the +5% to attacks with an S/L Component, like the IO Set Bonuses?

 

Give the set a later power that boosts the lower level powers, like the original suggestion, so that it plays into the Boxing/Kick/Crosspunch setup.

 

Then you could combine this kind of set with something like Ninjitsu to get a more well rounded Gadget and Armor style concept going!

[Puma]

On 10/18/2019 at 4:49 PM, Megajoule said:

There are plenty of "armor" sets already in the game.  Pick one, and a costume for your character that fits your concept.

No offense, but under this logic all new powerset development would be halted. 

 

There are far more melee and blast powersets, for example, than there are armor sets. 

Edited October 20, 2019 by Puma

[Puma]

On 10/19/2019 at 10:20 AM, Steampunkette said:

Ohhhhh that's -brilliant-!

 

Tanker getting 6% Resistance from a Body Armor autopower, Scrappers getting 4.5% Resistance on an Autopower... It's not a TON but it could mean the difference between Capping S/L or not.

 

Could also play with Permanent Damage buffs? Things like "Reinforced Stikes" autopower that add +5% damage. Or even typed damage, so Reinforced Strikes only adds the +5% to attacks with an S/L Component, like the IO Set Bonuses?

 

Give the set a later power that boosts the lower level powers, like the original suggestion, so that it plays into the Boxing/Kick/Crosspunch setup.

 

Then you could combine this kind of set with something like Ninjitsu to get a more well rounded Gadget and Armor style concept going!

I can handle this as a possibility. 

 

 

So out of curiosity, Steampunkette, since your intial problem was with the levels of this set, what would you suggest to make it more balanced assuming it were staying a full armor set. What levels and with what powers? 

 

What about something like the  tiers 1 and 2 remaining auto powers with 9% Res level similar to the auto power in Energy Armor, but moving Enhance Body Armor and to tier 4 (available at level 10, so very early on) and making it a toggle power that raises the res to those two powers to toggle levels, but only costing the endurance run of 1 toggle (EBA) as opposed to both.  Then you'd have numbers closer to this: 

  

Level 50 Scrapper with SOs:

40% Resistance to S/L/F.

45% Resistance to Cold.

51% Resistance to Nrg/Neg.

22.5% Resistance to Psionic.

11.25% Defense to S/L.

16hp/sec regen (Including Unslotted Health), but also a fast recharging +48% heal. 
-7.5% Tohit PBAoE

Edited October 20, 2019 by Puma

[Steampunkette]

13 minutes ago, Puma said:

I can handle this as a possibility. 

 

 

So out of curiosity, Steampunkette, since your intial problem was with the levels of this set, what would you suggest to make it more balanced assuming it were staying a full armor set. What levels and with what powers? 

 

What about something like the  tiers 1 and 2 remaining auto powers with 9% Res level similar to the auto power in Energy Armor, but moving Enhance Body Armor and to tier 4 (available at level 10, so very early on) and making it a toggle power that raises the res to those two powers to toggle levels, but only costing the endurance run of 1 toggle (EBA) as opposed to both.  Then you'd have numbers closer to this: 

  

Level 50 Scrapper with SOs:

40% Resistance to S/L/F.

45% Resistance to Cold.

51% Resistance to Nrg/Neg.

22.5% Resistance to Psionic.

11.25% Defense to S/L.

16hp/sec regen (Including Unslotted Health), but also a fast recharging +48% heal. 
-7.5% Tohit PBAoE

I actually waded into the idea and came up with this: 

 

 

Shifting the focus off "Always On Autopowers" and onto "Long Duration Clicks"

 

You still get the benefit of not constantly spending endurance throughout your fights on 2-3 toggles and the odd click. But you wind up with 2 toggles (3 if you count the Pet but it's set up like the Vanity Pets so there's no actual cost to it at all), 2 long time clicks, and some nifty secondary options. But it's -absolutely- going to cost you your Auto-Fire button on one of your two clicks (I'd recommend the Tier 1 armor power) and make it really hard to fit Hasten into the build because of the amount of clicking you'd spend trying to keep it, your armor stacks, and your mez protection active (Which is why the Mez has a 1 minute overlap!)

 

Opportunity and Focus cost rather than Survivability.

[Megajoule]

1 hour ago, Puma said:

No offense, but under this logic all new powerset development would be halted. 

False.  Some powersets bring new and interesting gameplay to the table, or fill gaps and provide utility that is not covered by the existing ones.  This one, IMO, does not.

 

1 hour ago, Puma said:

There are far more melee and blast powersets, for example, than there are armor sets. 

This is true.  Is it your intent to argue that we can, or should, increase the number of armor sets until those numbers match?

 

This is one of several new powersets I've seen suggested here whose proponents seem to have given little consideration to the possibility that an existing one, combined with appropriate costuming and/or customization, can serve just as well to represent them on a mechanical level.  Rather than adapt to the game, they wish the game to adapt to them.

 

If I may turn to (tabletop) Champions for a moment: when you buy armor in that system, for example, you are simply buying physical or energy defense (what we would call damage resistance). Everything else, such as whether this defense is provided by a suit of power armor, a knight's suit of plate and mail, modern body armor, an organic carapace, a magical amulet or a force-field belt, is defined by the player's imagination and any modifiers they put on the base power.  The appearance, source (technological, magical, etc) and so forth is irrelevant; only the effect matters.

 

It is neither practical nor, IMO, desirable to try to model all of the above armor types individually in this game - and that's only a few possibilities, for a single power!  But that doesn't seem to stop people in this subforum from trying. 🙄

 

tl;dr not every concept needs its own unique powerset.

[Haijinx]

New powersets should be rare and carefully considered. 

 

That said  there are some ideas here worth exploring.

[Puma]

3 hours ago, Steampunkette said:

I actually waded into the idea and came up with this: 

 

 

Shifting the focus off "Always On Autopowers" and onto "Long Duration Clicks"

 

You still get the benefit of not constantly spending endurance throughout your fights on 2-3 toggles and the odd click. But you wind up with 2 toggles (3 if you count the Pet but it's set up like the Vanity Pets so there's no actual cost to it at all), 2 long time clicks, and some nifty secondary options. But it's -absolutely- going to cost you your Auto-Fire button on one of your two clicks (I'd recommend the Tier 1 armor power) and make it really hard to fit Hasten into the build because of the amount of clicking you'd spend trying to keep it, your armor stacks, and your mez protection active (Which is why the Mez has a 1 minute overlap!)

 

Opportunity and Focus cost rather than Survivability.

Im sorry but in my opinion you went from "too weak" to crazy overpowered. It's tier 1 is practically as strong as many tier 9s.  Performance serum provides +200% regen, mez protection, and recharge boost and stacks before even IOing? And that's on top of another power that adds regen, recovery, and recharge?  Plus you'd be the only armor set to get pets.  And damaging pets.   But you thought making an auto power have a higher res number would be tweaking the formula too much?  It looks like you just took the best concepts from Bio and Rad and Ninja and upped them and then combined them. 


You have some interesting mechanics but this is insanely OP.  I definitely see a disconnect in what we see as balance in a powerset. 

 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Puma

[Puma]

3 hours ago, Megajoule said:

This is true.  Is it your intent to argue that we can, or should, increase the number of armor sets until those numbers match?

 

tl;dr not every concept needs its own unique powerset.

Not at all. The point is, if you argue that "there are enough armor sets already" then you're ALSO discounting any new blast sets, buff sets, melee sets, etc.

Like it or not, for many people, trying out new sets is part of the fun.  I've rolled over 200 characters, gotten most of them to 50.  So yes, I've had an Energy Aura brute whose concept was explained as using a suit of high tech armor.  I would put money down that I've been AT LEAST as creative as you in explaining away how powers work on my toons, and in finding creative new explanations to get the concept I want.  

That doesn't mean I wouldn't love to see an ACTUAL body armor set that has a different set of powers to try and survive.  It's fun to see how different combinations of different power options (heals, buffs, debuffs, etc.) play out.  


Just like all those energy blasters who also wanted to try Beam Rifle, even though they could explain their energy blasts as energy beams emitted from hand blasters.

 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Puma

[Steampunkette]

1 hour ago, Puma said:

Im sorry but in my opinion you went from "too weak" to crazy overpowered. It's tier 1 is practically as strong as many tier 9s.  Performance serum provides +200% regen, mez protection, and recharge boost and stacks before even IOing? And that's on top of another power that adds regen, recovery, and recharge?  Plus you'd be the only armor set to get pets.  And damaging pets.   But you thought making an auto power have a higher res number would be tweaking the formula too much?  It looks like you just took the best concepts from Bio and Rad and Ninja and upped them and then combined them. 


You have some interesting mechanics but this is insanely OP.  I definitely see a disconnect in what we see as balance in a powerset. 

 

Normally a click based power has a lot higher bonus than 22.5% Resistance (Or the 15% to Energy), so I shaved some off, there. And set a high animation time so if it popped in a fight you'd wind up standing stock still for over 2 seconds.

 

But since the game is Balanced around SOs what you'd be looking at is a fairly high end cost click with a long animation time leaving you with a 33.75% Damage resistance for the first 5 minutes before it recharges, again, and brings you up to 67%. And if you die, you better hope it's close to recharged when you drop, otherwise... And if you didn't slot 3 recharges, you're only going to have short duration good defenses.

 

So while it's strong... it has drawbacks to help balance it. An Autopower that is just flatly stronger than other autopowers doesn't -have- drawbacks.

 

Also... Tier 9s tend to do either big bonuses to a few things (like in the 60-80% range) or 30% to almost everything (Generally they leave a psi hole). This is less than that and applies to 3.

 

Performance Serum ignores Recharge Rate Changes. You can get all the IO Sets you want, it won't make it stack more than 1/3rd of the time. And 200% Regen at 50 on a Brute is only 19hp/sec. It -sounds- a lot bigger than it is, but baseline is 6.5hp/sec. Until you get up to about 500-800% it's really not a lot.

 

And yup! Pets. One that deals no damage but throws controls, one that deals no damage but throws heals, and one that deals a little damage and does nothing else. I figured it'd be interesting to see which ones get played in which situation since they're mutually exclusive. I should probably put a recharge rate one those that's fairly high...