Martial Combat vs. Ninja Training

[Lockpick]

I thought I would do a comparison between Martial Combat (MC) and Ninja Training (NT) as it may help players who are trying to choose between them.  The comparison is based on my experience and opinion and, of course, your opinion and experience may be different.

 

I have always felt Ninja Training was lacking based on just looking at it in Mids, so never really played it.  Recently I started a DP/NT Blaster and have been leveling it and was surprised to find it was better than I thought.  My experience with MC and NT is with Dual Pistols as a Primary.  I am only level 32 on my DP/NT, but I became curious as to how MC and NT stacked against each other, so decided to do the comparison.  Once I am level 50 and incarnated out I will revisit this thread and provide updates, but at this point some of the analysis is based on experience of the power outside the set and using the numbers in Mids.

 

I tried to be objective by using the numbers, but the reality is this type of comparison is subjective.  Some players may really like the slow in Reaction Time or may really like Burst of Speed and I do not like those powers / effects.  That being said, going in I really thought MC was a much better set and I was surprised to find that I scored Ninja Training higher than Martial Combat.

 

Ninja Training = 5

Martial Combat = 4

 

What does this mean?  Nothing really.  I was bored and thought I would create this post in the hopes of generating a conversation and hearing other perspectives.  At the end of the day I really enjoy playing both my DP/MC and DP/NT, but I feel like these two secondaries could have been combined into one secondary.  It would have really been cool is if they had created one secondary with 2 powers at each tier where you could pick the power of your choice.

 

Example:

• Tier 1: You could choose Ki Push or Immobilizing Dart, but you couldn't take both.
• Tier 2: You could choose Storm Kick or Sting of the Wasp, but you couldn't take both.

 

Feel free to provide feedback as I am certainly interested in hearing any feedback,

 

Martial Combat:

Spoiler

Martial Combat
Power	Description	Specifications	Rating
Ki Push	You smash your foe with a burst of Ki Energy, sending them flying through the air in slow motion.	Melee, Moderate DMG(Smash), Foe Repel, KB End: 5.2 Recharge: 6 Cast: 1.056 Mag: 4 Damage: 44.49 (Smashing)	5
Storm Kick	You can unleash a roundhouse kick that pummels your foe for moderate damage, knocking them back. Storm Kick has an additional chance to cause your target to bleed for Lethal damage over time.	Melee, Moderate DMG(Smash), DoT(Lethal), Foe Knockback End: 6.86 Recharge: 6 Cast: 1.32 KB: .67 Damage:  86.75 (S/L)	4
Reach for the Limit	You are constantly looking for vulnerabilities in your foes' stances and positioning. Whenever you attack, you have a chance to gain a moderate +ToHit and +Damage bonus for a short duration.	All Attacks: Chance for +ToHit, +DMG(All) End: N/A Recharge: N/A Cast: N/A Mag: N/A Damage:  ()	3
Burst of Speed	Channeling physical Ki inwards, you move more quickly than can be seen for an instant, allowing you to move instantly to a targeted location and strike at targets within melee range. You can use this Burst of Speed up to 3 times within 10 seconds of activating it initially. Attacking at such high speed is dangerous to the user, as well - for each enemy you strike, you take minor damage.	Location AoE Moderate DMG (Smash), Self Teleport End: 13.52 Recharge: 90 Cast: 1.188 Mag: N/A Damage:  ()	3
Dragon's Tail	This low spinning kick deals moderate damage, but has a chance to hit all enemies in melee range. Successful hits may trip and knock down your opponents.	PBAoE Melee, Moderate DMG(Smash), Foe Knockdown End: 13.52 Recharge: 14 Cast: 1.716 KB: .67 Damage: 65.62 (Smashing)	4
Reaction Time	You attune yourself to the world around you, moving with preternatural speed. All enemies nearby move slowly and have reduced recharge, and you can absorb small amounts of damage every 2 seconds. When Reaction Time is deactivated, you gain a burst of speed for a short duration, increasing your own recharge and move speed.	Toggle (PBAoE), Self Absorb over Time, +Recovery (50%), Foe –Rech, - Move, Special (Recharge 40%)	2 (or 5)
Inner Will	When pushed to your limit, you can tap into an inner reserve of power, allowing you to overcome impossible odds. When you are below half health, below half endurance, or the victim of any status effect, you may activate Inner Will. Inner Will cancels any status effects currently affecting you, increases your resistance to status effects by 100%, and increases the power of your own status effect-inducing powers. Inner Will also heals you for a moderate amount when activated.	Self Heal, Special End: Recharge: Cast: Mag: Damage:  ()	2
Throw Sand	You grab some nearby debris and fling it towards a nearby foe, obstructing their vision and dazing them.	Ranged (Cone), Foe Stun, -Perception End: 20.18 Recharge: 90 Cast: 1.32 Mag: 3 Damage: N/A	3
Eagle's Claw	You can perform a devastating kick that can severely Disorient most opponents. Eagle's Claw strikes so powerfully that it weakens your target's resolve, reducing their Range and Recharge for several seconds after attacking.	Melee, Superior DMG(Smash), Foe Minor Disorient, +Special End: 11.86 Recharge: 18 Cast: 2.772 Mag: 3 Damage: 180.2 (Smashing)	4

 

Ninja Training

Spoiler

Ninja Training
Power	Description	Specifications	Rating
Immobilizing Dart	Immobilizing Darts do minor toxic damage over time and weakens your foe's legs.  They will either be entirely unable to move, or severely slowed down. Damagae: Minor (DoT), Recharge Fast.	Ranged, Minor (DoT), Foe Immob End: 5.2 Recharge: 4 Cast: 1.716 Mag: 3 Damage: 25.02 (Toxic)	2
Sting of the Wasp	You perform a standard attack with your Ninja Blade. SotW can reduce a target's Defense, making them easier to hit. Damage: Moderate, Recharge: Fast	Melee, Moderate DMG(Lethal), Foe -Def End: 6.03 Recharge: 5 Cast: 1.32 Defense: -7% Damage:  64.51 (Lethal)	3
Choking Powder	Toss a fistful of toxic powder at an enemy.	Ranged, Moderate DoT (Toxic), Foe Hold End: 11.39 Recharge: 16 Cast: 1.32 Mag: 3 (Held) Damage:  68.82 (Toxic)	3
Shinobi	A Shinobi is a master of stealth and assassination.  While this power is active you will be very hard to detect, and your first strike out of the shadows will deal extra famage.  Even if you manage to regain cover, you can only inflict this surprise attack once every 30 seconds. Even while detected, a Shinobi is a deadly for and able to deal slightly higher damage.  This pwer can't be used at the same time as other stealth powers.	Toggle: Self + Def (Melee, Ranged, AoE), + Run Speed, + Jump End: .26/s Recharge: 4 Cast: .0132 Defense: 3.5% while stealthed and 1.75% in combat Damage Buff:  43.75%	4
The Lotus Drops	You perform The Lotus Drops maneuver, attacking all foes in melee range.  The attack wounds you opponents, causing them to take moderate damage over time and reduce their defense. Damage: Moderate, Recharge: Slow.	Damage: Moderate, Recharge: Slow. End: 13 Recharge: 28 Cast: 1.98 Defense: -7% Defense Damage Buff:  75.63 (Lethal)	4
Kuji-In Toh	Kuji-In Toh invokes the power of Toh, or harmony with the universe.  Focusing your inner power, you can make your body regenerate and recover endurance for a while.  You also gain resistance to psionic attacks and fear protection. Recharge: Long	Self +Regen, + Recovery, Res (Psionic, Fear) End: 5.2 Recharge: 200s Duration: 210s Cast: 1.188s Res: 7% (Self) Regen: 113.6% (Self) Recovery: 50%	5
Smoke Flash	You throw a smoke bomb at your feet.  The resulting flash of light and smoke can briefly distract your foes and Placate them so they can no longer find or target you.  Enemies will be distracted and confused, making them more vulnerable to attack for a short time. Recharge: Very Long	End: 2.6 Recharge: 90s Cast: 1.98s Mag: 3	3
Blinding Powder	You throw a handful of Blinding Power in a wide arc at your foes.  Most foes will be blinded and unable to see.  Some affected targets may be overcome by the powder that the may start attacking their own allies.  If you attack the blinded foes, they will be alerted to your presence, but will continue to suffer a penalty to their chance to hit. Recharge: Very Long	Ranged (Cone), Foe - ToHit, Sleep, Confuse, -Perception End: 7.8 Recharge: Range: 25 Cast: 1.32 Effect: Sleep Mag: 2	4
Golden Dragonfly	You perform a devasting Golden Dragonfly attack that deals a massive amount of damage and can even knock a foe down to the ground and reduces its defense.  The power of this attack can actually extend a short distance through multiple foes. Damage: Extreme, Recharge: Slow	Melee, Extreme Dmg (Lethal), Foe Knockback, - Def End: 11.86 Recharge: 12 Cast: 1.98 Defense: -7 % Damage: 126.8 (Lethal)	5

 

MC vs. NT Comparison

Spoiler

MC Power	NT Power	Winner	Comments
Ki Push	Immobilizing Dart	Ki Push	Ki Push is much better.  The opponent is slowly pushed away and is vulnerable to attacks during this period.  This may be the best tier 1 secondary power for all Blasters. Cast time is better
Storm Kick	Sting of the Wasp	Storm Kick	This is probably a toss up depending on whether you prefer - Def or KB.  I am giving the nod to Storm Kick because I think the KB mitigation is better on a Blaster and the damage is higher.
Reach for the Limit	Choking Powder	Reach for the Limit	Overall I think the Chance for +ToHit, +DMG(All) is probably better, although I would prefer to be able to control it like Build Up. I do like the synergy in the hold mitigation in Choking Power when combined with Suppressive Fire as it will stack to hold a boss.
Burst of Speed	Shinobi	Shinobi	Shinobi is bugged and does not provide the + Run Speed, + Jump, but I really enjoy the stealth and defense of the power. I am not a fan of Burst of Speed.  I had it for quite a while while leveling my DP/MC and just never really used it.  It didn't fit into a logical attack chain for me and the amount of slots needed to make it an okay power were better used elsewhere in my build.
Dragon's Tail	The Lotus Drops	Dragon's Tail	Another toss up, but I like the knockdown on DT.
Reaction Time	Kuji-In Toh	Kuji-In Toh	I think Kuji-Toh is the winner here.  The power is permanent as the duration is 210s and the recharge is 200s and I like the regeneration component. I am not a fan of the slow aura in Reaction Time as it aggros enemies, which is a pain when trying to stealth missions.  I do like the Absorb and the Recovery of this power, which is why I have the power rated 2 (or 5).  I love it in combat, but don't like it when traveling or try to stealth.    I also am not a fan of the effects when turning the power off.  Why would you get effects when you turn it off?  Very hokey IMO.  I expect there must be some way to leverage the 40% Recharge in Reaction Time, but I haven't found it as yet.  If someone has some experience or thoughts in leveraging Reaction Time to boost things like Hasten, I would definitely be interested in the feedback. All this being said, I think these powers are fairly comparable.
Inner Will	Smoke Flash	Smoke Flash	This is another toss up.  I had Inner Will for some time and never really used it.  I felt that inspirations can easily replace Inner Will. Smoke flash is okay, but there is also a temporary power you can buy from the P2W vendor that does basically the same thing.   Both powers are skippable IMO.
Throw Sand	Blinding Powder	Blinding Powder	I like Blinding Powder here because it hits multiple foes and may have your enemies fight each other.  I like that you can slot Coercive Persuasion in this power.
Eagle's Claw	Golden Dragonfly	Golden Dragonfly	I really like Eagle's Claw due the animation, stun, and damage, but I am going with Golden Dragonfly here due to the ability to hit multiple targets.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Lockpick
Edits

[Haijinx]

The problem with both of these sets is their melee attacks are underpowered sad excuses for Blaster Melee attacks.  Its like they were direct ports from melee ATs 

 

Compare the with the attacks in /Energy and /Electric 

 

They need recharge and base damage doubled.   Also the AOE radius is normally supposed to be larger for blasters.  

 

Compare Scrapper Thunderstrike to Blaster Thunderstrike. 

 

 

[Lockpick]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

The problem with both of these sets is their melee attacks are underpowered sad excuses for Blaster Melee attacks.  Its like they were direct ports from melee ATs 

 

Compare the with the attacks in /Energy and /Electric 

 

They need recharge and base damage doubled.   Also the AOE radius is normally supposed to be larger for blasters.  

 

Compare Scrapper Thunderstrike to Blaster Thunderstrike. 

 

 

 

I usually just play sets I think will be fun and don't normally check the numbers for comparison to min/max, so wasn't looking at these sets in comparison against the AT.  However, I just looked at all the tier 1 and 9 powers in Mids and put them in a couple of tables.

 

Tier 1:

Ki Push and Power Thrust look equivalent, and Ki Push has lower End and Cast and Higher Mag, so is definitely better than Power Thrust.

Immobilizing Dart is clearly lacking and looks to be the worst tier 1.

 

Secondary	Tier 1	End	Recharge	Range	Cast	Effect	Mag	Damage
Atomic	Electron Shackles	5.2	4	50	1.32	Immobilized	3	71.95
Dark	Penumbral Grasp	7.8	4	80	1.848	Immobilized	3	62.56
Devices	Toxic Web Grenade	7.8	4	50	1.584	Immobilized	3	62.56
Electricity	Electric Fence	7.8	4	50	1.32	Immobilized	3	62.56
Energy	Power Thrust	6.85	6	7	1.188	KB	KB: 16.62	44.49
Fire	Ring of Fire	7.8	6	50	1.32	Immobilized	3	96.34
Ice	Chillblain	7.8	4	50	1.32	Immobilized	3	62.56
Martial	Ki Push	5.2	6	7	1.056	Repel	4	44.49
Mental	Subdual	8.53	4	80	1.848	Immobilized	3	62.56
Ninja	Immobilizing Dart	5.2	4	50	1.716	Immobilized	3	25.02
Plant	Entangle	5.2	4	50	1.452	Immobilized	4	62.56
TA	Electrified Net Arrow	5.2	4	80	1.188	Immobilized	3	62.56
Temporal	Time Wall	5.2	4	50	1.848	Special: -Spd, - Rech, -Regen	Regen: -25%	N/A

 

Tier 9:

I'm not sure the tier 9 powers are that out of whack.  Golden Dragonfly damage looks low, but it can also hit multiple targets and has lower recharge.

 

Secondary	Tier 9	End	Recharge	Range	Cast	Effect	Mag	Damage
Atomic	Positronic Fist	18.51	20	7	2.904	Foe -Def, Disorient	Def: - 14%	198
Dark	Midnight Grasp	11.95	18	7	2.244	Immobilized	3	180.2
Electricity	Shocking Grasp	18.2	15	7	1.188	Held	3	100.1
Energy	Total Focus	18.51	20	7	3.432	Stunned	3	198
Martial	Eagles Claw	11.85	18	7	2.772	Stunned	3	180.2
Ninja	Golden Dragonfly	11.85	12	10	1.98	KB	Def: -7%	126.8

 

I might look at the other tiers and add later.

 

[Haijinx]

The other tiers are the ones with the dramatic differences

 

Storm kick compared to Bonesmasher is embarassing.  

 

Blaster Dragon's Tail compared to Blaster Thunderstrike is just pitiful. 

[Lockpick]

On 1/8/2020 at 8:01 PM, Haijinx said:

The other tiers are the ones with the dramatic differences

 

Storm kick compared to Bonesmasher is embarassing.  

 

Blaster Dragon's Tail compared to Blaster Thunderstrike is just pitiful. 

 

I'm not sure these comparison align.

 

Storm Kick is a tier 2 power, so would align with Charged Brawl (Electricity) and Energy Punch (Energy).  SK and SotW are lower recharge than CB and EP, so the damage should be lower.  I do think it looks like the damage for SotW should be boosted at least up to SK.

 

Secondary	Tier 2	End	Recharge	Range	Cast	Effect	Mag	Damage
Atomic	Negatron Slam	10.19	10	7	1.716	KD, -Def	Def: -10.5%	109
Dark	Smite	10.19	10	7	1.188	For -ToHit	ToHit: -5.25%	109
Devices	Taser	10.19	10	20	1.188	Stun	3	109
Electricity	Charged Brawl	10.19	10	7	1.056	Sleep	3	109
Energy	Energy Punch	10.19	10	7	1.056	Stun	2	109
Fire	Fire Sword	10.19	10	7	1.584	DoT		124
Ice	Frozen Fists	8.53	8	7	1.584	Foe -Rech, -SPD	Rech: -10%	91.2
Martial	Storm Kick	6.86	6	7	1.32	KB	0.67	86.76
Mental
Ninja	Sting of the Wasp	6.03	5	7	1.32	Foe -Def	Def: -7.5%	64.51
Plant	Skewer	10.19	10	7	1.848	Foe -Def	Def: -14%	122.1
TA
Temporal

 

Dragon's Tail is a tier 3 power, so would align with Havoc Punch (Electricity) and Bone Smasher (Energy).  Those 2 powers are single target, so a true comparison would be against other AoEs like FSC and Thorn Burst.  DT and TLD are lower damage, but their recharge is lower.

 

Secondary	Tier 3	End	Recharge	Range	Cast	Effect	Mag	Damage
Atomic
Dark	Soul Drain	15.6	120	10	2.508	Self + Dmg, +ToHit	Dmg 10%, ToHit 2%	55.61
Devices
Electricity	Havoc Punch	13.82	14	7	1.716	Sleep	3	144.6
Energy	Bone Smasher	13.82	14	7	1.716	Stun	3	144.6
Fire	Fire Sword Circle	18.51	20	10	2.904	PBAoE		97.05
Ice	Ice Sword	10.19	10	7	1.584	Foe -Rech, -SPD	Rech: -10%	109
Martial	Dragon's Tail	13.52	14	8	1.716	KB	0.67	65.62
Mental	Psychic Scream	11.86	12	60	2.804	Foe -Rech	Rech: -50%	65.06
Ninja	The Lotus Drops	10.19	20	15	2.112	Foe -Rech, Disorient	Rech: -50%	68.82
Plant	Thorn Burst	16.02	17	15	3.168	Foe -Def	Def: -21%	65.96
TA
Temporal

 

Thunder Strike is a level 26 power and the powers for NT and MC are utility powers, so not really equivalent IMO.

 

[Haijinx]

The lower recharge is the problem.  Blaster melee attacks are traditionally long recharge high damage.

 

Thunderstrike is the melee pbaoe of tge set.  As is DT and LD. Don't get too hung up on Tier.

 

Explosive blast is a level 26 power, Fireball is level 8? Something like that.  But they are very similar outside of sec effect.

 

Eng gets Energy punch AND Bone Crusher, both hit harder than Storm Kick. 

 

Edited January 10, 2020 by Haijinx

[Haijinx]

You dont want fast recharging melee on a blaster.  You already have blasts.

[StratoNexus]

I have played both of these blaster secondaries to fifty. My DP/Nin/Mun concept is a character I love, and the flow between the pistols and Katana works well for me (I even wish I could force redraw of the Katana after a pistol attack, that first Sting of the Wasp not animating bothers me, even though it increases my DPS by not animating the redraw). My Rad/Mar/Mace Halloween baby quickly became not just a favorite character, but also a fun and effective toy for smashing content. It is true that Storm Kick and Dragon's Tail are slightly low damage for blaster melee, but the control they provide causes me to prefer the faster recharge/lower damage.

 

I had posted on the first set of forums about the problems with Ninja Training, but since that post is gone, I will repost my thoughts.

 

Overall, the concept for the Ninja Training secondary works very well. The power choices include a good mix of melee, control, utility, and the blaster sustain is thematically appropriate. There are just a few implementation issues that hold the set back with some truly subpar powers (not unplayable, just noticeably weaker than they should be).

 

First the Good:

Choking Powder is good. Standard single target mez, reasonable damage, good animation, bonus base to-hit is nice and fits the standard Katana theme..

Kuji-In Toh is fine. Perma out of the box (with a bit of overlap so you do not need to mash it immediately), good animation. On top of the Fear protection I think protection and/or resistance to Confuse would make sense thematically and would be pretty unique, but not really needed.

 

Second the Meh:

Shinobi is OK. The benefits are not truly high enough compared to TD or Build Up. Even if they get the +movement fixed, still not good enough. If they made it a zero (or near zero) end cost toggle, maybe, but I think it should have a stronger effect (or a better way to leverage the +damage from stealth more often) and keep the higher end cost. I personally like the idea of this power opening up a secondary power (like Mystic Flight opening Translocation) that either puts you back in stealth or maybe grants a minor Build Up (with a ~30ish second recharge that is unaffected by buffs).

 

Finally the Bad: (these are all bad to varying degrees, some are almost meh and some are outright bleh)

Immobilizing Dart clearly does not deal as much damage as it should (or it should have some additional secondary effect(s)). Animation looks good to me, although it is on the longer side compared to the other tier 1s, which compounds the lack of damage.

Blinding Powder is a fine AoE control/debuff and pretty unique. It's recharge was shortened from the armor set version, which is good, but compared to other blaster AoE soft controls, not shortened enough (45 or 60 second recharge would be proper, 90 makes sense for the hard controls in Temporal and Plant, which this is not). Also a bit small sized for the AoE when compared to other blaster options. Not one of my favorite powers personally, but very appropriate for the AT and the Ninja theme.

Smoke Flash is a great idea, but really mixes much better with Stalker armor than it does with blaster powers, including the rest of this secondary. I really thought I would like this, but I found it to be much less effective than I thought it would be. The animation is a bit long for an unarmored AT and a blaster's best defense is making dead things so blowing 2 seconds on this activation ends up more dangerous than using a primary attack to make dead things. I am not sure how I would fix this power.

Katana features quick recharging, fast animating attacks that can be chained for great DPS. Blasters are not really made to do that with melee, so melee attacks generally deal more damage per click, but have longer recharges. All three of the Katana attacks in Ninja Training are problematic, but we will start with the most blatant error.

The Lotus Drops was treated as if it was being moved into an Epic pool, rather than a blaster secondary and had its recharge doubled while it's damage scale remained the same as the Katana version. I'd love to see this power have an 18 second recharge, 10' radius, and deal scale 1.2 lethal damage with 3 ticks of scale 0.12 lethal damage (66.73 + 3 ticks 6.67). That is only slightly higher than the current  damage, but with a larger radius (and a shorter recharge that appropriately almost follows the damage formula (some of the DoT is bonus "free" damage, just like the Katana version)).

Sting of the Wasp and Golden Dragonfly were straight ported from the scrapper to the blaster, which is problematic since chaining fast, but lower base damage melee attacks works fine for an armored AT with criticals, but not as well for a blaster with defiance. I do not think these powers need to be /Nrg or /Elec melee attack clones, they can keep a slightly lower damage per click with a faster recharge, just not quite as low/fast as the scrapper versions. I'd go with 8 seconds, scale 1.64 damage (91.2 dam) for Sting and 17 seconds, scale 3.08 damage (171.28 dam) for Golden.

 

Alternatively, you could do a bit lower damage per click, maybe 6 or 7 seconds for Sting and 14 or 15 for Golden, but add Flashing Steel with an 8 or 10 second recharge (replacing either Smoke Flash or Blinding Powder). I would like that, but have no real justification other than I would like that.

[Lockpick]

 

12 hours ago, Haijinx said:

The lower recharge is the problem.  Blaster melee attacks are traditionally low recharge high damage.

 

12 hours ago, Haijinx said:

You dont want fast recharging melee on a blaster.  You already have blasts.

 

Ah, now I understand where you are coming from and I agree with you.

 

8 hours ago, StratoNexus said:

Overall, the concept for the Ninja Training secondary works very well. The power choices include a good mix of melee, control, utility, and the blaster sustain is thematically appropriate. There are just a few implementation issues that hold the set back with some truly subpar powers (not unplayable, just noticeably weaker than they should be).

 

Very nice write-up and I like your suggestions.

 

I would really like changing the dart to a shuriken, what ninja doesn't throw shurikens...

[StratoNexus]

6 minutes ago, Lockpick said:

I would really like changing the dart to a shuriken, what ninja doesn't throw shurikens...

That would be a great alternate animation, although it is faster than the current (1.32 vs 1.716). If they could trim the dart animation to 1.32 (would also be good for fixing the Widow Poison Dart) and allow the Throw Shuriken animation as an alternate, that would be cool. Not sure the Dart animation could be trimmed that much, 0.4 seconds is a lot of animation to trim without making it look clunky and I don't remember a lot of pauses in the animation.

[Outrider_01]

Martial Combat

 

Ki push, sends targets flying back and slowly...skeet shooting anyone? Worth 6 slots ☺