What sort of resources would it take to revert just the issue 13 PvP changes for one server?

[Killawar]

Just a simple question. I miss the days of SC fight club corners w/ no DR's/resistance bandaids for squishy ATs/PvP 'effects', etc. and am wondering what it'd take to, say, revert one of the server's issue 13 PvP changes so that PvP = PvE as far as mechanics goes. 

[Rathulfr]

https://ourodev.com/

 

[barrier]

On 3/13/2020 at 11:41 PM, Killawar said:

Just a simple question. I miss the days of SC fight club corners w/ no DR's/resistance bandaids for squishy ATs/PvP 'effects', etc. and am wondering what it'd take to, say, revert one of the server's issue 13 PvP changes so that PvP = PvE as far as mechanics goes. 

It would be all kinds of broken. Between PPM and proliferation, any class with a mez would be extremely overpowered under the prior system. Imagine a blaster hitting your tank with mag 12 hold protection with freeze ray + +2 mag hold proc + devastation hold proc and strangler with the same slotting. You'd be held through your hold protection in 1 cast cycle most of the time - for the full pve duration x resists. Now imagine 3 blasters on top of you.

 

All kinds of broken.

[Killawar]

On 3/16/2020 at 7:50 AM, barrier said:

It would be all kinds of broken. Between PPM and proliferation, any class with a mez would be extremely overpowered under the prior system. Imagine a blaster hitting your tank with mag 12 hold protection with freeze ray + +2 mag hold proc + devastation hold proc and strangler with the same slotting. You'd be held through your hold protection in 1 cast cycle most of the time - for the full pve duration x resists. Now imagine 3 blasters on top of you.

 

All kinds of broken.

Sure, but this problem could be solved if there was some sort of proc nerf implemented. For instance, you could have the proc enhancements' effects reduced/increased depending on how many other enhancements of the same set were equipped in the same power. 

 

For instance, if you have 5/6 Heca's equipped in a KO-blow, it would tone down the damage by some 16-20% of the proc. You could do the same for mez; the mag 2 holds would be reduced to about 1/6 if you were one-point-wondering them into a power. It'd certainly make going for sets more appealing as well as making powers feel more useful again instead of what they proc being more useful. 

 

Edit: Procs are already pretty bland and tasteless. Some RNG is nice, but when you've got some gross amount of PPM enhancies and two hamis just to roll the 1-shot rng machine, you might as well say you're playing slots with an avatar instead of saying you're playing CoX.

Edited March 18, 2020 by Killawar

[MJB]

1 hour ago, Killawar said:

Sure, but this problem could be solved if there was some sort of proc nerf implemented. For instance, you could have the proc enhancements' effects reduced/increased depending on how many other enhancements of the same set were equipped in the same power. 

 

For instance, if you have 5/6 Heca's equipped in a KO-blow, it would tone down the damage by some 16-20% of the proc. You could do the same for mez; the mag 2 holds would be reduced to about 1/6 if you were one-point-wondering them into a power. It'd certainly make going for sets more appealing as well as making powers feel more useful again instead of what they proc being more useful. 

 

Edit: Procs are already pretty bland and tasteless. Some RNG is nice, but when you've got some gross amount of PPM enhancies and two hamis just to roll the 1-shot rng machine, you might as well say you're playing slots with an avatar instead of saying you're playing CoX.

as i understand it, changing the ruleset to match i13 isnt too difficult (there are already flags for most of the things available in arena), however balancing things like procs is infinitely more complicated, partly for political reasons (afaik there is no way to nerf procs just for pvp, and any change that effects pve is bound to cause drama)

[macskull]

You can reduce their damage in PvP but the root of the problem isn't procs necessarily, it's that the game is a very different one than it was in 2008 when I13 went live, and going back to the old system might leave you in an even bigger mess than before.

[Killawar]

21 hours ago, MJB said:

as i understand it, changing the ruleset to match i13 isnt too difficult (there are already flags for most of the things available in arena), however balancing things like procs is infinitely more complicated, partly for political reasons (afaik there is no way to nerf procs just for pvp, and any change that effects pve is bound to cause drama)

Well, there's a way to 'nerf' or alter powers for PvP, why couldn't proc enhancements be given the same treatment? It sounds like a coding thing really, but I don't know what kind of resources that would take, hence the question. 

[Killawar]

11 hours ago, macskull said:

You can reduce their damage in PvP but the root of the problem isn't procs necessarily, it's that the game is a very different one than it was in 2008 when I13 went live, and going back to the old system might leave you in an even bigger mess than before.

Well yeah it's different, the main thing being incarnates. But, from what I understand, most people only play with Alpha slots (or at the very least rule out Destiny usage). The only thing really 'different' then would be a few new IO sets and some power proliferation - which would be neat to see anyway (who knows what would be good? I'm all for a huge 'meta' shift (where, back in the day, there really wasn't one)). 

 

Besides, I'd rather it be a mess where everyone got to play what they wanted instead of a mess where a PvP zone is ruled by ranged.

 

I'm all for proc nerfs if it means going back to pre-i13 "DR" "hidden stat salads". 

[CR Banana Man]

There are some things that would be really broken, and fixing one of those things would open the door to other things being really broken. It would be a pretty big balancing effort.

 

-You can build an absurd amount of slow resists into characters via set bonuses.

-Instant sniping blasters

-Controllers with multiple single target holds, change for +mag procs, and things like weaken and benumb

-Scrappers forcing crits (lol, tw)

 

Some of the stuff, like the ones I mentioned, are pretty obvious, others might not be, or are things that we can really only guess at. Is an 1847 hp blaster with a ticking absorb shield, an instant snipe, and 100% slow resist OP? Probably? Maybe not given that certain scrapper builds can do 4000 damage in about a second, almost half of which would be unresisted. We can really only guess at how some of this stuff interacts with each other. It'd be a learning process - one that I'd be down for - but I don't think it'd be a simple switch flip.

 

[Killawar]

On 3/21/2020 at 6:26 PM, CR Banana Man said:

There are some things that would be really broken, and fixing one of those things would open the door to other things being really broken. It would be a pretty big balancing effort.

 

-You can build an absurd amount of slow resists into characters via set bonuses.

-Instant sniping blasters

-Controllers with multiple single target holds, change for +mag procs, and things like weaken and benumb

-Scrappers forcing crits (lol, tw)

 

Some of the stuff, like the ones I mentioned, are pretty obvious, others might not be, or are things that we can really only guess at. Is an 1847 hp blaster with a ticking absorb shield, an instant snipe, and 100% slow resist OP? Probably? Maybe not given that certain scrapper builds can do 4000 damage in about a second, almost half of which would be unresisted. We can really only guess at how some of this stuff interacts with each other. It'd be a learning process - one that I'd be down for - but I don't think it'd be a simple switch flip.

 

Probably not a simple anything, but I'd think it'd be a lot more enjoyable than the current system of hidden stats and proc salads.

 

-Slow resists would be useful against certain builds, sure, but not every character need rely on slows. Also, that'd be resources spent in a generally niche spot (slows when, what, you could supplement it with resistances/damage/utility elsewhere).

-Back in the day they still had multiple ST holds - even toggles dropped completely when CC'd which made CC even better, but it was managed by carrying around a few BF inspis and whatnot. The proc chance thing could be balanced out in general with the (pretty) nonsense PPM system. Like how sets get activated depending on how many enhancements of that set you have slotted, you could have the strength/proc chance of a proc enhancement depend on how many of the same enhancement you have equipped in the respective power. For instance, the Heca proc's damage or consistency could go down depending on how many of the other enhancements you have/don't have equipped. It might even be a good idea to do that in PvE too or at least make the proc enhancements less powerful and the sets themselves more appealing.

-Crits would be a much bigger issue if they weren't resistable like they are now.

 

I'd venture to say if we reverted back to an issue-8 style of PvP a blaster with that wouldn't be that big of an issue. It states on the CoH Wiki that Blaster HP cap is 1606(.4), an absorb shield that ticked wouldn't be that big of an issue given that the HP pool is still relatively small compared to the other ATs (since they can either pour out a ton of damage or have more HP to duke it out). The instant-snipe thing should be okay as it is given that its damage is nerfed when used mid-combat.

 

I'm not aware of any Scrapper damage being unresistable; crits were made resistable a while back. As far as 4k damage goes, even a 75% resistance to that damage would end up dealing 1k - which every AT could outlive (even a MM given that they split damage with their pets).

 

It'd definitely be cool to go back in time as far as balance goes. RV wasn't even the big deal back then, it was SC - which I imagine would be a lot easier to deal with from a balance perspective anyway.

 

Side note: Why do PvP zones follow the exemp-level system (where you get access to powers above the level bracket) and not the hard-cap level exemp system (like it used to be)? SC was hard-locked at level 30, the same went with the other zones. Why were things like that changed (Travel Suppression, Heal Decay, etc.) but not the glaring balance/hidden stat salad/DR issues? 

Edited April 11, 2020 by Killawar

[Killawar]

On 3/21/2020 at 6:26 PM, CR Banana Man said:

There are some things that would be really broken, and fixing one of those things would open the door to other things being really broken. It would be a pretty big balancing effort.

 

-You can build an absurd amount of slow resists into characters via set bonuses.

-Instant sniping blasters

-Controllers with multiple single target holds, change for +mag procs, and things like weaken and benumb

-Scrappers forcing crits (lol, tw)

 

Some of the stuff, like the ones I mentioned, are pretty obvious, others might not be, or are things that we can really only guess at. Is an 1847 hp blaster with a ticking absorb shield, an instant snipe, and 100% slow resist OP? Probably? Maybe not given that certain scrapper builds can do 4000 damage in about a second, almost half of which would be unresisted. We can really only guess at how some of this stuff interacts with each other. It'd be a learning process - one that I'd be down for - but I don't think it'd be a simple switch flip.

 

So if changing the current system is too much for PvP, what about a flashback system for it? Such as, have a Siren's Call flashback that worked on the pre-issue 13 style of PvP? It'd keep the current stuff for the people who like their '3 blaster limit 8v8 kickballs' and let the people who liked the older PvP play the game how they want. 

[barrier]

What part of "the game has new features from pve that would make it impossible to get your precious pre-i13 pvp system back" do you not understand?

 

As to your less-than-well-thought-out-responses:

- Stop obfuscating. You can literally hit exorbitant slow resists without even trying right now. I have a couple of builds with huge slow resists that are just incidental to other targets. That was not the case pre-i13 and even on live when you had to shell out a bunch of cash to make that happen. Did you ever play a cold pre-i13? You aren't getting that back if you just revert to i8 with the current io sets and market.

- Can you name a controller set with multiple single target holds with a spammable recharge?

- How is that a response? That is exactly what teh banana dude is saying. Unresistable on-demand crits from scrappers were not something that you had pre-i13. Keeping those crits resistable in the current system actually provides better balance than otherwise.

 

Do you understand this stuff?

Edited April 21, 2020 by barrier