So, toggles...

[Parabola]

1 hour ago, Seigmoraig said:

possibly but I've never seen the need to 3 slot stamina on any of my characters that are using the procs, If you are using only SOs then yeah 3 slot it but not if you are using procs. I even have it at 1 slot with only p.shifter on many of my lower consumption characters.

But the point is that if you don't need to three slot stamina (perf shifter +end, perf shifter endmod, endmod) then you don't need to three slot health (panacea, miracle, numina). If you really need the end though and you are looking to spend three slots on health and stamina slot a pure endmod in stamina rather than adding a third slot to health for the numina proc. Also technically if you are only running stamina with the base slot you can save a bit of inf and slot an endmod rather that the shifter proc, it works out much the same (and better if you 50+5 it).

[Meknomancer]

12 toggles (sometimes 13 if I forget to turn of superspeed) and I don't run the form that gives end red. I have a few like this they have 0 end probs at 50 but they do need to pop the occasional blue if I exempt donw:

 

http://www.cohplanner.com/mids/download.php?uc=1543&c=724&a=1448&f=HEX&dc=78DA6593594F135114C7EF74A64237DA52A0806CC3524A0B43ABC6183782961A8426448CAF4D0397D288A599D6441EFD068A2626CAEAF2EA77F00318D7A889BEAB0F8A7189FA540FF33FAD4D3A49FBBB73CEF99FE5CEBDA96B09F7E373D72784E23ABB922916D367CCAB25694F65B2B9055508E19CBF38994CF625262FCC34D06BA7E54EA7E48A94C67C29B3B4944EE6B2CBA55C3EDB0E57422EC97C511A898C79393D695E5935FDD3F96569CA7CC9A82C9C73ABAB2BC67C41CA45B7B59C959902A5F0582F9584DE8A6B519AC5E55CA163AA905B30A6F2D2CCAEA5539962499A6B68B79D3A1BA5DF535DF053B68B273621029A38705B13224EBC0136DE64AE83EE5BE0DD7D99626955F147B56CCE9FCCDFA0FB17F84CE750AAA3EC40DFB4CDDC027D9BCC0DB0B955B1788F542AEAD8D547C8D7FC106C79C0BC0FB6ED3277C0E754D7CE75ED7EE46DF7329BC04E0FD30D76F9C017A46D40DDF206FD3B785607CFDAC5B3F6F08C3D3CF32645B938D6759AA0A9A287A907C9D1AD09FD106207E88878D09FE2796FB36C831FC02DB27AAD5D2B6BDE66D5D20D3431FDCC20F20CB6806FA8673FF269FE38E78B81C3E34C83390A6E537400FDDA02BCE7233E301200FBA9CF56C428AD51011FB38D7C41F84490F56FA98F0EDEF78E53A81339098E1E639E601E07C72630C30EA90EF20C071B601B6B643AC071271877810AF5D00D8DE82ED323DE5107BD9CA5378A0A7D11E608330CEA217097A2FB7992FEA3F8622A651EE2AF39F417D5427C02427C02427C02348A0D736CB8B29333F08D24B9E369D0419F29CAB5A27750DF4F7A83F506EBC77FF0C47BACFF0E062836C6FA988E2FD1A5556FF3FEA1A55D88D459627596789DE5709DE5489D25A9556F7F79B6CE3BA755EFBB502C8BC347B71896F2172779B977650CBDEFFDB7D9149DF7F33C19868997B0175F6B7561E8BED5EA781F6DEBCC3EC47C6CABF657FE54B3FE5CB37EB97FDB79FDAAE6E6BFAEB14F04281DDBFF01B776FA3D

[Seigmoraig]

3 minutes ago, parabola said:

But the point is that if you don't need to three slot stamina (perf shifter +end, perf shifter endmod, endmod) then you don't need to three slot health (panacea, miracle, numina). If you really need the end though and you are looking to spend three slots on health and stamina slot a pure endmod in stamina rather than adding a third slot to health for the numina proc. Also technically if you are only running stamina with the base slot you can save a bit of inf and slot an endmod rather that the shifter proc, it works out much the same (and better if you 50+5 it).

The procs in health don't only give stamina, they also heal you, that's pretty significant if you are a melee character. Secondly, you can have perf shifter slotted at level 21 and that makes a major difference on your end recovery if you slot it early when you can't really +5 enhancements.

Slotting a Numina's increases you end recovery by 0.17 end/sec while a +5end mod gives you diminishing returns after the first one. 0.22, 0.18 the second one. At 0.18e/s VS 0.17e/s with healing benefits
What I'm trying to say is that unless you are counting the change in your couch to buy enhancements, it's really pointless to skimp out on getting P.Shifters and Numina's see how relatively cheap they are and how you can equip them at low level

[Parabola]

9 minutes ago, Seigmoraig said:

The procs in health don't only give stamina, they also heal you, that's pretty significant if you are a melee character. Secondly, you can have perf shifter slotted at level 21 and that makes a major difference on your end recovery if you slot it early when you can't really +5 enhancements.

Slotting a Numina's increases you end recovery by 0.17 end/sec while a +5end mod gives you diminishing returns after the first one. 0.22, 0.18 the second one. At 0.18e/s VS 0.17e/s with healing benefits
What I'm trying to say is that unless you are counting the change in your couch to buy enhancements, it's really pointless to skimp out on getting P.Shifters and Numina's see how relatively cheap they are and how you can equip them at low level

Oh sure there are trade offs. Mind you the regen that the numina proc gives you seems functionally irrelevant to me. Regen in general needs to be huge in order to make a real difference. I guess what I'm saying is that I have a priority order for adding things to health and stamina that looks like: panacea > perf shifter proc > miracle > perf shifter end mod > end mod > numina proc.

 

Don't get me started on my real pet peeve which is blaster builds that mule the sustain and then slot health and stamina out...

[Seigmoraig]

23 minutes ago, parabola said:

panacea > perf shifter proc > miracle > perf shifter end mod > end mod > numina proc.

Of the 3 slots in health, I actually value Panacea as the lowest since it is the only one that's actually a proc. Miracle and Numina's are always on and doing work when slotted in an auto power. Also since p.shifter, numina's and Miracle combined cost as much as Panacea I will usually let it slide for a while on my builds until I see if it's a build I want to pursue

[tidge]

42 minutes ago, parabola said:

Oh sure there are trade offs. Mind you the regen that the numina proc gives you seems functionally irrelevant to me. Regen in general needs to be huge in order to make a real difference.

/agree. This is where I end (no pun intended) up in almost all my builds. The 'functional relevance' of more regen is diminished by the ability to increase Defenses (and Resistances)...not to mention 'speed of defeating enemies', as opposed to Recovery which is (for the most part) completely determined by the player's style of play. (e.g. toggle choices, rapid button mashing)

 

  IIRC, the way Regen and Health interact:

 

12 seconds / Regen Rate = time between 'healing tics'

(HP Total) / 20 = HP regained per 'healing tic'

 

I believe that (unslotted) Health is already providing a 1.4 regen rate, so in the absence of any other regeneration bonuses the time between ticks provided by the Numina proc is reduced by about 0.6 seconds.

 

Regeneration bonuses from non-heal sets are not uncommon LotG, Shield Wall both give 10% after only 2 pieces.

 

Full disclosure: With IO sets, procs, accolades and power slotting I typically (end-game) plan to only have 2 extra slots planned to be used in Health and Stamina combined. If there is a power pick that provides Health/Regeneration or Endurance/Recovery I'm usually able to run with just 1 extra slot (almost always in Stamina).