Please revert the Rage change.

[DeformedBrit]

43 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

Energy Melee which is in a MUCH worse state than SS is only 7 pages long. Pages don't mean anything. If this topic is 16 pages long it is because there's a debate, while truly broken sets aren't generating much discussion because everyone agree.

I am making the point that all sets have their prefered combos. Why should SS be any different?

Because it goes beyond that. It works against it completely. Not just a small amount, nearly half of your defence drops, frequently. It's broken and works against the point of being a tank in the first place.

[Kimuji]

If 10 seconds with a debuffed defense is enough make you want to stop playing a tank...

[Heraclea]

1 hour ago, Kimuji said:

Energy Melee is bad whatever the Defense set you choose.

Actually, while I agree that EM is bad generally, it is less bad with a set-and-forget defense set like Willpower than it is with something like Bio,  Regen, or Fire, things that rely on click powers for survival.  Click heals should not have to wait on animations to play generally, nor should inspirations.

 

Right now I don't have a SS character over level 8, and in the current environment I doubt I ever will.  My investment in the set is purely historical, because I ran an Inv/SS from 2004 to 2012.  But 'Super Strength' is perhaps the most iconic superhero power, and people will be drawn to the set for the concept.  I know that I was back in 2004.  Warning players against the 'obvious choice' is something of a necessity now. 

 

I just don't want people to invest time and effort into a gimped character that won't get the job done. 

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, Kimuji said:

I am making the point that all sets have their prefered combos. Why should SS be any different? 

You mean other than limiting choice?  "Just don't do that combo" is not a valid argument as far as I'm concerned.

[DeformedBrit]

22 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

If 10 seconds with a debuffed defense is enough make you want to stop playing a tank...

 

10 seconds every 60 seconds, yeah.

[Kimuji]

22 minutes ago, Heraclea said:

I just don't want people to invest time and effort into a gimped character that won't get the job done. 

SS gets the job done, all those claiming that the crash makes it unplayable are completely blowing it out of proportion. What are the sets that will really struggle with SS? I only see two: Super Reflexes, which was never meant to be a Tanker set to begin with and Ice Armor, which sadly has become a bit obsolete but it has nothing to do with SS.

Even Willpower can work with SS you just have to be careful and know when not to use Rage. Hell, I participate a lot on the build channel on the Homecomig discord and we frequently warn people about SS and Willpower not being optimal, and most of the time there's someone to jump in just to say that they have a SS/WP toon and don't have any issues with the crash.

And regarding EM, the main problem with the long animations is not the potential delay on clickable heals. The real issue with the long animations is their terrible effect on DPS.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Kimuji

[Kimuji]

5 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

You mean other than limiting choice?  "Just don't do that combo" is not a valid argument as far as I'm concerned.

Some powers work well together and some others don't, it has always been like this. I don't see the problem.

[ShardWarrior]

1 minute ago, Kimuji said:

Some powers work well together and some others don't, it has always been like this. I don't see the problem.

"I have a sandwich, so you can't be hungry."

[Kimuji]

That's way off the mark...

Edited August 6, 2019 by Kimuji

[ShardWarrior]

4 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

SS gets the job done, all those claiming that the crash makes it unplayable are completely blowing it out of proportion. What are the sets that will really struggle with SS? I only see two: Super Reflexes, which was never meant to be a Tanker set to begin with and Ice Armor, which sadly has become a bit obsolete but it has nothing to do with SS.

Shield Defense, Invulnerability (yes, it is a Defense set) - any set relying on Defense is impacted.

[DeformedBrit]

13 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

SS gets the job done, all those claiming that the crash makes it unplayable are completely blowing it out of proportion. What are the sets that will really struggle with SS? I only see two: Super Reflexes, which was never meant to be a Tanker set to begin with and Ice Armor, which sadly has become a bit obsolete but it has nothing to do with SS.

Even Willpower can work with SS you just have to be careful and know when not to use Rage. Hell, I participate a lot on the build channel on the Homecomig discord and we frequently warn people about SS and Willpower not being optimal, and most of the time there's someone to jump in just to say that they have a SS/WP toon and don't have any issues with the crash.

And regarding EM, the main problem with the long animations is not the potential delay on clickable heals. The real issue with the long animations is their terrible effect on DPS.

Shield??? 3 sets which are for sure ruined by the effect, 4 if you include WP. Thats 35% of all the defensive sets gimped by the debuff. I don't know enough about the new sets (bio, rad) to know how it affects them..

^ Yes also Invuln so that's more like 45% of tanks sets severely effected by the drop in defence.

Edited August 6, 2019 by DeformedBrit

[Kimuji]

Yes their defense is impacted, but saying that it makes them weak or unplayable is a GROSS exaggeration. Shield, Willpower and Invuln especially can work with it. Honestly if you feel that your Invuln/SS Tanker is broken look at your build before blaming the rage crash.

And that's why this topic is 17 pages long now, because it's based the a false assumption that the crash makes SS unusable. If SS was truly broken the thread be long dead because everyone would agree.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Kimuji

[ShardWarrior]

But that's the thing - the builds are not broken - Rage is.

[ShardWarrior]

10 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

Yes their defense is impacted, but saying that it makes them weak or unplayable is a GROSS exaggeration. Shield, Willpower and Invuln especially can work with it. Honestly if you feel that your Invuln/SS Tanker is broken look at your build before blaming the rage crash.

And that's why this topic is 17 pages long now, because it's based the a false assumption that the crash makes SS unusable. If SS was truly broken the thread be long dead because everyone would agree.

Just so we're clear, near halving the total DEF value on sets relying on DEF doesn't make them weaker in any way? 

Edited August 6, 2019 by ShardWarrior

[DeformedBrit]

Just now, Kimuji said:

Yes their defense is impacted, but saying that it makes them weak or unplayable is a GROSS exaggeration. Shield and especially Invuln can work with it. Honestly if you feel that your Invuln/SS Tanker is broken look at your build before blaming the rage crash.

And that's why this topic is 17 pages long now, because it's based the a false assumption that the crash makes SS unusable. If SS was truly broken the thread be long dead because everyone would agree.

It's 17 pages because you go in a circular argument. Your whole conclusion so far is basically "some sets work better than others". Yet you go on to say Energy Melee is unplayable and doesn't work with any set. A "GROSS" exaggeration on your behalf one could say because EM doesn't have any debuffs like SS. I can't tell if you are being serious anymore because you just contradict yourself.

[Kimuji]

No, that is highly inaccurate. Invuln/SS is one of the best combo for Tankers. It definitely works. If someone stuggles with it it's because there's a flaw in the build.

[Kimuji]

8 minutes ago, DeformedBrit said:

It's 17 pages because you go in a circular argument. Your whole conclusion so far is basically "some sets work better than others". Yet you go on to say Energy Melee is unplayable and doesn't work with any set. A "GROSS" exaggeration on your behalf one could say because EM doesn't have any debuffs like SS. I can't tell if you are being serious anymore because you just contradict yourself.

Well stop by the builds channel on the Discord and ask which is worse between SS and EM and witness the 99.99% votes in favor of EM as the worst melee set.

Seriously, saying that SS is more broken than EM just shows how little you know what you're talking about.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Kimuji

[DeformedBrit]

2 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

Well stop by the builds channel on the Discord and ask which is worse between SS and EM and witness the 99.99% votes in favor of EM.

Ok then let's have a vote what's worse EM or Trick Arrow, or let's not because it's bloody irrelevant to the issue we are trying to address in this thread.

[ShardWarrior]

3 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

No, that is highly inaccurate. Invuln/SS is one of the best combo for Tankers. It definitely works. If someone stuggles with it it's because there's a flaw in the build. 

INV relies on DEF via Tough Hide and Invincibility (and many rely on Weave or CJ to supplement them) - all of which play a role in INVs mitigation.   The -DEF crash cuts this near in half.

[Kimuji]

9 minutes ago, DeformedBrit said:

Ok then let's have a vote what's worse EM or Trick Arrow, or let's not because it's bloody irrelevant to the issue we are trying to address in this thread.

I mentioned EM as an example of a broken set... SS is not one of them.

7 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

INV relies on DEF via Tough Hide and Invincibility (and many rely on Weave or CJ to supplement them) - all of which play a role in INVs mitigation.   The -DEF crash cuts this near in half.

Yes invuln will get its defense lowered by 20% at the end of Rage. Does it make the Invuln/SS combo weak? No.
How do I know it? Because I've seen loads of nigh immortal Invuln/SS Tankers in game, because everyday I see demands for Invuln/SS builds on the Discord and absolutely no complains about them. Like I said, it is regarded as one of the strongest combo for Tankers.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Kimuji

[DeformedBrit]

6 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

Seriously, saying that SS is more broken than EM just shows how little you know what you're talking about.

 

2 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

I mentioned EM as an example of a broken set... SS is not one of them.

I'm not saying EM isn't in need of looking into, what I'm saying is, that belongs in its own thread. I could just say what you've been saying for the past so many posts in regards to EM "pick something else not all sets are good" but that's not a solution is it?

[ShardWarrior]

5 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

I mentioned EM as an example of a broken set... SS is not one of them.

Yes invuln will get its defense lowered by 20% at the end of Rage. Does it make the Invuln/SS combo weak? No.
How do I know it? Because I've seen loads of nigh immortal Invuln/SS Tankers in game, because everyday I see demands for Invuln/SS builds on the Discord and absolutely no complains about them. Like I said, it is one of the strongest combo for Tankers.

The opinions of the people on Discord are no more or no less correct, incorrect or valid than those expressed here, despite your assertions otherwise.  

[Kimuji]

They are more accurate because they are based on real ingame experience from people who spend a lot of time trying all sorts of builds and optimize them. No one in their right mind there will tell you to avoid SS on an Invuln Tanker/Brute. Actually there might be some objections against SS for Brutes because the benefit of the double Rage is more noticeable on Tankers, but not because the crash will destroy your character...

Edited August 6, 2019 by Kimuji

[ShardWarrior]

2 minutes ago, Kimuji said:

They are more accurate because they are based on real ingame experience from people who spend a lot of time trying all sorts of builds and optimize them.

Right, so absolutely no one - not a single person who is NOT on Discord doesn't have any "real in-game experience" or have tried all sorts of builds and such.  Got it.

 

You just lost any shred of credibility you may have had.

[Kimuji]

Don't talk about credibility when your argument relies twisting words.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Kimuji