Vanden Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 9 minutes ago, William Valence said: Inappropriate context for comment. /jranger is for things that have been suggested/discussed ad nauseam but the person failed to do a cursory search to see their discussion fails to cover any new ground. This -is- the discussion on the topic. Dismissing opinion out of hand seems inappropriate. You're giving JRanger waaay more credit than he deserves for his thought process. 2 A Cheat Sheet for efficient Endurance Recovery slotting Invention Set Designer Tool Spreadsheet with every Ancillary Power Pool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimuji Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, William Valence said: A majority of the claims I've seen haven't said that the crash itself is inappropriate, rather the implementation through a -def debuff is poor. It either does nothing, or is over punitive. Creating a new power so that Rage can stay in a poorly implemented place doesn't satisfy the people who want rage more usable in more situations. And to clarify, making it more usable doesn't mean just removing all the penalties and keep all the benefits. But Might would be precisely that more usable Rage alternative, with some penalties still attached to it. Might is basically an un-stackable Rage, with the 10s -dmg and -end crash and no defence penalty. That's pretty much what the no -def crash crowd wanted. And beside that more usable Rage power there would be the good old Rage for those who don't mind the full crash. I mean that's a real compromise here, I was clearly on "the crash is fine as it is" side. And yet to some (I'm not including you here) I'm the extremist with dumb ideas. Edited August 22, 2019 by Kimuji Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly Rocket Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 (edited) 23 hours ago, Vanden said: This sounds like it would make for a good Equivalent Power for Rage. Call it Might, and players have a choice between consistent performance, or spiking higher with the risk of survivability hits and periods of weakness. /signed Honestly, I 100% back this suggestion. The no-crash version suggested by Captain Powerhouse, where subsequent uses simply extend the buff duration (And I'd even be fine with having a crash hit if you fail to extend the duration) as an equivalent power you can choose INSTEAD OF Rage. This should make everyone happy, and anyone who bitches about it is clearly just a whiner, since they can continue to use Rage as it currently exists if they want to be able to double stack it, and we have an HC Admin on record saying they feel SS is NOT OP with a permanent single stack of Rage with no crash. Edited August 22, 2019 by kelly Rocket 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haijinx Posted August 22, 2019 Share Posted August 22, 2019 As many have suggested, the set seems to have been balanced around a single rage active 120 out of 130 seconds. Course that means footstomp was intended to be the best melee AOE. But that's fine, some power has to be. It pays for it with jab. Which is really really bad. And the level progression. Which is terrible. Considering other sets have been buffed since issue 0, maybe once the Rage issue is settled SS can actually get seriously looked at. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimuji Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, kelly Rocket said: /signed Honestly, I 100% back this suggestion. The no-crash version suggested by Captain Powerhouse, where subsequent uses simply extend the buff duration (And I'd even be fine with having a crash hit if you fail to extend the duration) as an equivalent power you can choose INSTEAD OF Rage. This should make everyone happy, and anyone who bitches about it is clearly just a whiner, since they can continue to use Rage as it currently exists if they want to be able to double stack it, and we have an HC Admin on record saying they feel SS is NOT OP with a permanent single stack of Rage with no crash. It's almost signed for me. I'll just insist on a small crash even for that alternative Rage power. It should at least retain the 10s of negated damage. That would be only fair for those going the old Rage route and dealing with a massive crash (dmg/end/def). Because not only Rage's crash is much bigger but it also happens twice as often: the new refreshable Rage would mean a small crash every 2min, the current double stack Rage means a big crash every minutes. And it would also make sense, I mean if you're going the old Rage route it's because you want more damage, but it kinds of defeat the point of sacrificing all that defense and endurance for damage's sake if the "light" Rage comes with no damage penalty at all. The "light" Rage will be attacking non stop while you'll have to stop for 10s every minutes, I'm not even sure you're really doing that much more damage in the end. lol A 10s dmg debuff every 2 min is a very reasonable price to pay imo and I can't imagine it being a real issue for anyone. Damn that's another compromise... I started with -dmg AND -end, I'm ok with only a -dmg now... but that's as far as I'll go. (And I'm still not really convinced that we should dump the -end lol) Edited August 23, 2019 by Kimuji Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Valence Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 14 minutes ago, Vindicator said: No. Not just no, HELL no. The damage crash IS a problem. Reference? Reread the damn thread! The primary complaint of the thread is the defense crash, and how it is inconsistent in it's severity, not the damage crash. OP for reference On 5/30/2019 at 2:50 PM, MalphiteMeIRL said: To be very clear I think the damage drop and endurance loss should remain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vindicator Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Kimuji said: I'll just insist on a small crash even for that alternative Rage power. Expressing your opinion is fine, but "insist"? You don't get to make demands here. 1 hour ago, Kimuji said: I can't imagine it being a real issue for anyone. Way to disregard the several posters in this thread that have stated it's an issue. No. Not just no, HELL no. The damage crash IS a problem. Reference? Reread the damn thread! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vindicator Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 8 minutes ago, William Valence said: The primary complaint of the thread is the defense crash, and how it is inconsistent in it's severity, not the damage crash. The primary complaint of the thread WAS the defense crash. This thread has obviously evolved. Go play lawyer somewhere else, Benny 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSorrow Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 2 hours ago, William Valence said: The primary complaint of the thread is the defense crash, and how it is inconsistent in it's severity, not the damage crash That is the primary complaint because the Defense crash is a clear balance concern. The damage crash part is anti-fun. Rethinking mechanics that aren't fun should be almost as important as fixing unbalanced mechanics, this game is supposed to be entertainment, after all. Considering that SS appears to be quite balanced with one stack of Rage at all times, I'm no longer convinced it needs to have a crash. If we allow it to stack then yes, obviously. That said, I can live with a 10s damage crash every 2 minutes, but I'm pretty sure the devs and community could come up with a better mechanic. 3 Torchbearer: Sunsinger - Fire/Time Corruptor Cursebreaker - TW/Elec Brute Coldheart - Ill/Cold Controller Mythoclast - Rad/SD Scrapper Give a man a build export and you feed him for a day, teach him to build and he's fed for a lifetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimuji Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Vindicator said: Expressing your opinion is fine, but "insist"? You don't get to make demands here. Way to disregard the several posters in this thread that have stated it's an issue. No. Not just no, HELL no. The damage crash IS a problem. Reference? Reread the damn thread! The thread is called "Please revert the the Rage change", the Rage change in question is the fix to the defense crash not applying when Rage is stacked twice. So I'm 100% on topic. If the def crash hadn't been fixed this topic wouldn't exist and no one would be asking for a crash less Rage, so yes derailing the topic into a demand for a crash less Rage is a hijack. Now mind you it's partially working because even people like me who were against reverting the fix are ok with the idea of an alternative power that would work like Rage with a very small penalty. No Def crash, no End crash, just a 10s damage debuff at the end of a 2 minutes +80% damage and +20 accuracy buff. So, well done I guess. I strongly disagree with the fact that Super Strength is perfectly balanced for a permanent stack of Rage without a crash. We can argue whether Super Strength's damage with a permanent Rage is or isn't too much compared to the other sets, Captain Powerhouse thinks it is not, it is debatable but at the end of the day even if I'm not entirely convinced I don't think it is an unreasonable opinion. But he did forget to take into account an important aspect: the accuracy bonus. A permanent +20% to hit bonus is huge. SS doesn't only get to hit harder it also hits more reliably. There are other powers that give you a permanent accuracy bonuses, these are toggles and they are absolute endurance hogs: Focused Accuracy and Tactics. So no I don't think it is neither fair or balanced to get that kind of damage boost + that high accuracy bonus for absolutely free. Nothing in the Super Strength set was balanced around this to work without any sort of counterpart. The only power in the set with an accuracy penalty is Hand Clap, all other powers behave exactly like any other powers from any other set. Knockout Blow even gets the usual accuracy bonus the high damage single target powers get. And on another (not so) smaller note Rage doesn't only affect your Super Strength powers, it will also improve all your damaging powers: your auras, your auxiliary/ancillary,everything. So you can't just limit your balance assertions to Super Strength alone in order to quantify Rage's benefits. The damage crash has been there since day one, it's been more than 10 years that people have been enjoying Super Strength the way it is. SS is by far one of the most popular set for Tankers and you are going to tell me that SS has got a huge problem be cause every 2 minutes you can't punch things for 10s? So those people who have been enjoying SS all that time were either masochists or complete idiots I guess? SS doesn't work, it's unfun but the set has never tanked in popularity. The facts speak much louder than a few people here claiming that Super Strength is unfun because of the crash. "Unfun" is the most subjective argument someone can come up with. And when I say "I insist" it does not mean "I demand", do not twist my words in order to make me sound like I'm the unreasonable person here when you are the one defending an extreme position. "I insist" means that I strongly believe that removing all form of penalty from Rage is a significant mistake. Both from a gameplay balance and a theme perspective. A crash limited to a 10s dmg debuff every 2 minutes isn't an awful, unfun, unreasonable price for an otherwise permanent massive damage and accuracy boost. On the contrary it's an amazing deal. Hell, the crash has never been as painless as this. Edited August 23, 2019 by Kimuji 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniktch Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 After some thought, I have to maintain my stance that this IS a breaking of the cottage rule. Mechanically, yes, it's still a click - but gameplay wise? To players, it's the same as a toggle. Get it, set it, forget it, same as Practiced Brawler and Kuji-in-Rin. While the cottage rule might technically be kept by leaving it a click, such technicalities are sophistry. Further, it's a 'toggle' with a ridiculously low END cost - at exact-perma, .04 EPS. Half of Combat Jumping. For 20% ToHit and 80% Damage. As a comparison point, Offensive Adaptation gives a ~32% Damage buff and a ~8% ToHit buff, costs 0 EPS, but requires you take multiple other powers from the set and reduces your resistances by ~8% across the board while it's active. It also prevents Efficient and Defensive from being active, but that's a minor cost overall. Now, this proposed change won't alter how I play my SS characters in the slightest, so I could just let it slide - but it's a bad precedent to set, a bad way to balance, and I'm invested in the longevity of Homecoming, not my own personal immediate benefit. If Super Strength is 'balanced' with an effectively no-cost boost of that size being permanently available, then I'm sure it'd be a fine way to give Energy Melee its single-target throne back, right? Obvious sarcasm, I hope - but a good illustration of where these cats are going to stampede when the bag is opened. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimuji Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) Or give Titans Weapons perma momentum, remove Hasten's end crash... oh and make Build Up/Aim permanent because it's not fair that SS gets a permanent Acc/Dmg bonus! 😏 Edited August 23, 2019 by Kimuji Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShardWarrior Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 At this point I would be happy if Rage could be converted to a Build-Up click so it can get the crashes removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PirateCrew Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 I would support any adjustment of Rage (or equivalent power - even better) that removes or greatly reduces the two features of current Rage that make it a poor fit for the game as it is today. Please make any crash armor-agnostic, so that freedom of powerset choice is improved. Several techniques could work here and I'd support any of them, from making the Def crash smaller and resistable by sets with DDR, to simply removing it in exchange for a single stacking limit. Please make any crash not involve as severe of a damage debuff, and its timing less binary-bad/good (just jumped into a spawn group or ambush spawned, vs. clicking elevator to next floor). Again, I see many valid options such as a reduced %, shorter debuff, or elimination, so that a greater feeling of contribution and super strength is maintained during any crash. Again, it's completely fair to limit the stacking to make this happen. The Captain's proposed version addresses both of my concerns and maintains a mechanical uniqueness, especially as an equivalent power. I would even be ok with "Might" having slightly lesser buffs if its endurance costs require that for balance. At this point I'd rather have build-up than Rage in it current form, and that's disappointing to me - I want the set to have unique features, but current Rage sits unclicked on my power bar way too much due to its downsides especially when exemplared. Dropping it wasn't the choice I thought I'd be considering when I came home to CoH, yet here I am... Sources: experience playing 3 SS tanks [WP|Invuln|Shield]/SS and 3 SS brutes SS/[WP|Fire|Energy]. All of these except SS/Energy were also played on live in incarnate content. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimuji Posted August 23, 2019 Share Posted August 23, 2019 (edited) You know what, I Iike the choice between Build Up or Rage suggestion even better than the choice between Might (aka Rage with a light crash) and Rage. 😛 Edited August 23, 2019 by Kimuji Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peerless Girl Posted August 26, 2019 Share Posted August 26, 2019 Powerhouse has it exactly right, IMO, test it crashless, and I would also convert it's end cost to a toggle, and turn it into one, thus freeing up my auto-power for say, Jab or something else useful. I'd do the same with Practiced Brawler and Kuji-In Rin, FWIW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megajoule Posted August 26, 2019 Share Posted August 26, 2019 Honestly, at this point, I'd almost rather just get rid of the power/mechanic entirely and rebalance the set to work (and be in the range of the other melee sets) without needing/relying on it. I understand both the Cottage Rule and the value of "flavor", but I also note the value of simplicity and (especially these days) a set that "just works" with a minimum of faffing-about-for-its-own-sake. Especially for a set that boils down to "I hit things, real hard." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly Rocket Posted August 26, 2019 Share Posted August 26, 2019 9 minutes ago, Megajoule said: Honestly, at this point, I'd almost rather just get rid of the power/mechanic entirely and rebalance the set to work (and be in the range of the other melee sets) without needing/relying on it. I understand both the Cottage Rule and the value of "flavor", but I also note the value of simplicity and (especially these days) a set that "just works" with a minimum of faffing-about-for-its-own-sake. Especially for a set that boils down to "I hit things, real hard." I'd rather have anything except this, just about. I hate the normal Build-Up and skip it on almost every character I build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galaxy Brain Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 3 hours ago, kelly Rocket said: I'd rather have anything except this, just about. I hate the normal Build-Up and skip it on almost every character I build. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly Rocket Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 I don't like powers that are so bursty. Even when I take Build-Up I forget to use it. If it were more like 30-60 seconds duration I'd be fine with it, even if it had the same 50% maximum uptime. But I can't be bothered with anything that only lasts 10 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freedom Frank Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 (edited) Clearly, we need change to Rage into a toggle, so we can always have it on. Change the name to Angry or something. It'll be our secret. Edited August 27, 2019 by Freedom Frank 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megajoule Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 (edited) Again, at that (hypothetical) point I'd rather see the bonus folded back into the set itself / have the set rebalanced. No crash, no click, no toggle, no-thing to keep track of. It Just Works - not some of the time, all of the time, every time, at whatever numbers the devs decide are fair. Nice and simple. Edited August 27, 2019 by Megajoule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MunkiLord Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 On 8/21/2019 at 8:35 AM, Captain Powerhouse said: Tossing this here for consideration, this MIGHT go to test in a future time, but wanted to hear some feedback before even going there: Super Strength > Rage: Activating Rage while the buff is still up will no longer add a second stack, instead it will increase the duration of the current buff by an additional 120 seconds. Example: Use rage when there are 30 seconds left, rage it will now last for 150 seconds. No longer has a crash of any kind. No endurance crash, no defense crash, no -dmg crash, nothing. Letting rage expire and continue to attack without using it again would be it's own penalty. Would such a change have any impact on Scrappers potentially getting this powerset at some point? Because that's what I really want. 1 1 The Trevor Project Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LateNights Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 On 8/23/2019 at 11:10 PM, Kimuji said: Or give Titans Weapons perma momentum, remove Hasten's end crash... oh and make Build Up/Aim permanent because it's not fair that SS gets a permanent Acc/Dmg bonus! 😏 Hey I know - let's remove trolls from threads while we're at it - everyone wins, yay! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reconfigureyourface Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 On 8/22/2019 at 12:38 AM, Vanden said: You're giving JRanger waaay more credit than he deserves for his thought process. Correct indeed... it just means no to a dumb idea My Twitch Channel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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