Build: Crabstermind OR "How to Mastermind better than a Mastermind"

[SomeGuy]

This build might look really familiar to some of you (it's as old as shutdown on live). Regardless, I haven't played a more damaging and tanky character then this one. That includes all the current iterations of THINGS going on now.  Really only posting this cause I noticed the old build wasn't exactly compliant with the current version of Mid's (this build is that old) and I rebuilt it to not give errors like crazy.

 

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[Maelwys]

There're a good few Crabberminds about; it's certainly a fun build.
I like duoing a Crabber with my Bot/Kin MM for maximum carnage - all those pets sitting at Defence and Damage caps result in absolute glorious pet bedlam.

Few things worth noting - firstly you only need ~185% Global recharge plus Hasten to make the pet durations permanent. Also, it's quite possible for VEATs to effectively cap Defence on their Pets (10% from the Globals + 20-21% from double maneuvers = 30-31%. Then +5% from Barrier and/or 8% from Support Radial and/or ~13-14% from Darkest Night and/or +5% from Lore Pets... and Blood Widow also gets another +5%!) whilst keeping the pets permanent and your own Defense, Resistance and Maximum HP sky high.

Finally, there are a few IO sets that are "new" to HC that are worth looking into for Crabbers- "Bombardment" for Targeted AoE Damage being the main one that springs to mind.

Example build below, it can trade Longfang for a different attack (such as Arm Lash, Frenzy, FG etc) by swapping its position with one of the power pool abilities. Personally I hate the redraw from the Soldier attacks, so I'd avoid Burst, but YMMV!
 

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Edited September 2, 2021 by Maelwys

[PainX]

Spoiler

21 hours ago, Maelwys said:

There're a good few Crabberminds about; it's certainly a fun build.
I like duoing a Crabber with my Bot/Kin MM for maximum carnage - all those pets sitting at Defence and Damage caps result in absolute glorious pet bedlam.

Few things worth noting - firstly you only need ~185% Global recharge plus Hasten to make the pet durations permanent. Also, it's quite possible for VEATs to effectively cap Defence on their Pets (10% from the Globals + 20-21% from double maneuvers = 30-31%. Then +5% from Barrier and/or 8% from Support Radial and/or ~13-14% from Darkest Night and/or +5% from Lore Pets... and Blood Widow also gets another +5%!) whilst keeping the pets permanent and your own Defense, Resistance and Maximum HP sky high.

Finally, there are a few IO sets that are "new" to HC that are worth looking into for Crabbers- "Bombardment" for Targeted AoE Damage being the main one that springs to mind.

Example build below, it can trade Longfang for a different attack (such as Arm Lash, Frenzy, FG etc) by swapping its position with one of the power pool abilities. Personally I hate the redraw from the Soldier attacks, so I'd avoid Burst, but YMMV!
 

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what do you think of this build kind of derived it from your build im afraid there is little left though

 

Spoiler

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Edited September 3, 2021 by PainX
correcting a stupid missing pet unique

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, PainX said:

what do you think of this build kind of derived it from your build im afraid there is little left though

Overall it looks grand 👍 

Several of the IOs haven't been boosted up to +5 (when you're placing the IO, just tap the NumPad "+" symbol a few times in Mids) but there's nothing that leaps out at me as too out of place. It's a lot more melee-centric than my example build, but that's just a question of playstyle... 🙂 

You've a little bit of leeway left with your Melee and Ranged Defences - I make those 43.87% and 43.64% respectively whenever everything is boosted to +5 (apart from the LOTG +rechs which you'll likely want to leave attuned). Remember that you'll be getting at least +5% from Barrier constantly, plus another +8% from Support when you need it (~50% uptime) so you'll end up a bit over the regular softcap point. (e.g. you could comfortably drop the Guassian set from Tactics or one of the Unbreakable Guard sets from Tough/Fortification)
I'm actually a big fan of putting the Guassian Proc into Aim: its proc rate remains capped (90%) as long as you have less than 70.85% worth of slotted recharge; which means that you can cram a level 50 +5 Rech/End/ToHit IO plus a level 50 +1 Rech IO into Aim as well without any negative impact on its proc rate.

The only real gap I can see is Knockback Protection. At present you're only sitting on Mag 4 which is "OK"... but might cause some issues if you're going to be in melee taking most of the hits instead of your pets. I mentioned the most useful breakpoints for KB protection in another thread fairly recently - I'd aim for Mag 7 or Mag 8 if at all possible.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Maelwys

[KaizenSoze]

1 hour ago, Maelwys said:

The only real gap I can see is Knockback Protection. At present you're only sitting on Mag 4 which is "OK"... but might cause some issues if you're going to be in melee taking most of the hits instead of your pets. I mentioned the most useful breakpoints for KB protection in another thread fairly recently - I'd aim for Mag 7 or Mag 8 if at all possible.

Or take Hover. I have heard of Crabberminds using hover to keep the AOE off their pets.

[Maelwys]

20 minutes ago, KaizenSoze said:

Or take Hover. I have heard of Crabberminds using hover to keep the AOE off their pets.

Quite right.

Unfortunately that might not work quite as well in this particular case with such a melee-centric build - their attack chain is essentially Slice/ArmLash/Frenzy/Kick with the occasional usage of Gloom and Venom Grenade. However if they were rocking Channelgun/Longfang/Supression/FG/VG then 100% Hovercrabbermind of Doom all the way!

A quick fix would be to swap one of the Unbreakable Guard 4-piece sets for a Gladiator Armor 3-piece; the unique could be moved out of CrabArmor to free up another IO slot... or just swap the extra LOTG Def in Combat Jumping to a Karma -KB.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Maelwys

[PainX]

revised it allready went down to 41% for both and yeah i know about the -KB have to decide on that later when i run into some KB mobs as for the slot thats pretty easy tbh and no not hover never hover dont like it oh and changed the AOE again still not sure on that one 2.5s and 3s is a long time but knockback built in also sucks not really the best AoE available to crab imo it is wet noodle hit or long animation any of you happen to know which pet would be most effective with the chance for build up?

 

Spoiler

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Edited September 3, 2021 by PainX

[Maelwys]

3 hours ago, PainX said:

 any of you happen to know which pet would be most effective with the chance for build up?

If you're talking about the SoulBound Allegiance Proc rather than the Gaussian's; the way it functions is a 5.25s buff that kicks in 0.5 seconds into a power animation.
(see https://cod.uberguy.net./html/power.html?power=set_bonus.set_bonus.boost_up )

Consider the Spiderlings. They have two attacks - "Chain Gun" which animates in 1.848s and recharges in 3.8s; and "Claw" which animates in 0.924s and recharges in 2s.
If the Build Up proc kicked in during "Chain Gun" then it wouldn't affect the damage of that first Chain Gun; but the effect would persist for 3.902s after it finished animating (5.75-1.848) so in theory the NEXT "Chain Gun" attack could benefit from it; even though there'd only be a window of overlap of 0.102s. However in practice that time window is usually a bit too narrow for the combat AI, so the buff ends up wasted unless the Spiderlings are in melee...
If the Build Up proc kicked in during "Claw then it wouldn't affect the damage of that first Claw; but the effect would persist for 4.826s after it finished animating (5.75-0.924) and the next "Claw" attack could comfortably benefit from it; with a window of overlap of 2.826s. 
https://cod.uberguy.net./html/entity.html?entity=pets_patron_powers_arachnobot_spiderling

The Disruptors have more powers to chain - Disruptor Bolt, Disruptor Blast and Disruptor Tesla (at range) and Claw (in melee). They're still limited by animation time, but they cycle faster. In theory they could get three of those powers into the buff time window ("Claw" plus any two of the ranged powers) but in practice it's much more likely to only affect two of them. https://cod.uberguy.net./html/entity.html?entity=pets_patron_powers_arachnobot_disrupter

Finally, the Epic Pool Pet. The Blood Widow has by far the most attacks of all of the Patron pets. Best case the Proc could activate in Spin or Poison Dart and then affect three other powers (Swipe, Strike and one other) during the buff time window. However it could also activate in Slash or Eviscerate and only affect two other powers.
https://cod.uberguy.net./html/entity.html?entity=pets_patron_powers_blood_widow


So the Proc will be "useful" in all of the pets... but which is optimal to slot it in?

One thing to consider here is the number of pets affected - you have three Spiderlings and two Disruptors but only one Blood Widow.
The Spiderling's attacks aren't as frequent or damaging as the Blood Widow due to the level difference... but the proc will be firing off twice or three times as often. In my experience this is actually weighted towards the Widow; since on average the proc will affect 3 Spiderling Claw attacks in the same period of time as it'll affect 2-3 Widow melee attacks... but the Widow attacks are much more powerful.
For the Disruptors, on average the proc will affect 4 Disruptor attacks in the same period of time as it'll affect 2-3 Widow attacks. The Widow attacks are still considerably more powerful, but the Disruptors do have two advantages. First, their damage is mainly *RANGED* - so they'll be merrilly shooting at everything whilst the Widow is still running from mob to mob. Secondly, they deal mainly energy damage to the Widow's lethal damage (which tends to be much more heavily resisted)
So in terms of "raw damage output" it's very close between the Disruptors and the Widow.

But there are two other things to consider:
(i) Disruptors are less suicidal than the Blood Widow.
(ii) Venom Grenade debuffs the damage resistance of Toxic damage twice as much as other types. And a good chunk of the Widow's damage is Toxic.

So my advice is that if you find you're able to keep the Widow alive for its entire duration; then slot the Soulbound Allegiance proc into it. Otherwise, go with the Disruptors.

Now personally, I lean towards the Blood Widow - but that's because my Crabber doesn't lack for ranged damage, and by using either Darkest Night or the Support Incarnate alongside its regular auras it can push the Widow to the defence softcap.

Edited September 3, 2021 by Maelwys

[PainX]

thanks very in depth think ill keep it where it is then kinda makes sense to me dont imagine i will be trying to keep her alive that much got a game to play was also considering MU for that reason it's just Gloom hits really really hard infact so does dark obliteration and both have what i consider "acceptable" animation times guess ill have to see late game how the pet works out only ever had the MU pet he is okay dont die much not to brainless in his decisions IE better then the Phantasm you get on illusion lol

[Maelwys]

1 minute ago, PainX said:

thanks very in depth think ill keep it where it is then kinda makes sense to me dont imagine i will be trying to keep her alive that much got a game to play was also considering MU for that reason it's just Gloom hits really really hard infact so does dark obliteration and both have what i consider "acceptable" animation times guess ill have to see late game how the pet works out only ever had the MU pet he is okay dont die much not to brainless in his decisions IE better then the Phantasm you get on illusion lol

The Mu Striker's damage is pants. Their only advantage is that they stay at range.
https://cod.uberguy.net./html/entity.html?entity=pets_patron_powers_mu_striker

I ballparked the DPS of each of the Patron Pool's Pets a while back (see attached) - the exercise was carried out for my VEAT Widow; but the same powersets hold true on a Crab.

Widow_PatronPets.txt

[PainX]

guess that leaves only soul mastery then as the other pools well look at the power damages kinda speak for them selves honestly quite imbalanced the epic pools

Edited September 4, 2021 by PainX

[THEDarkTyger]

On 9/2/2021 at 12:04 PM, Maelwys said:

There're a good few Crabberminds about; it's certainly a fun build.
I like duoing a Crabber with my Bot/Kin MM for maximum carnage - all those pets sitting at Defence and Damage caps result in absolute glorious pet bedlam.

Few things worth noting - firstly you only need ~185% Global recharge plus Hasten to make the pet durations permanent. Also, it's quite possible for VEATs to effectively cap Defence on their Pets (10% from the Globals + 20-21% from double maneuvers = 30-31%. Then +5% from Barrier and/or 8% from Support Radial and/or ~13-14% from Darkest Night and/or +5% from Lore Pets... and Blood Widow also gets another +5%!) whilst keeping the pets permanent and your own Defense, Resistance and Maximum HP sky high.

Finally, there are a few IO sets that are "new" to HC that are worth looking into for Crabbers- "Bombardment" for Targeted AoE Damage being the main one that springs to mind.

Example build below, it can trade Longfang for a different attack (such as Arm Lash, Frenzy, FG etc) by swapping its position with one of the power pool abilities. Personally I hate the redraw from the Soldier attacks, so I'd avoid Burst, but YMMV!
 

 

Minor quibble: What's with the lack of Performance Shifter +end proc in Stamina. 😉

[Maelwys]

9 hours ago, THEDarkTyger said:

 

Minor quibble: What's with the lack of Performance Shifter +end proc in Stamina. 😉

 

Lack of slots, mainly. Crab builds are quite tight, especially if you're trying to fit in permapets and softcapped defence/decent resists and HP and still proc-out and ED-cap the damage on your main attacks...


(i) The Performance Shifter Unique grants +10% End at 1.5 PPM
Slotted into Stamina, it has a 25% chance of activating every 10 seconds.
That's an average of 2.5 Endurance every 10 seconds, or 0.25 End/Sec.
 

(ii) The Miracle Unique grants Recovery, which works based off your maximum Endurance (buffable by set bonuses and accolades etc)
In the build above, it's an average of 0.29 End/Sec
 

(iii) The Numina Unique grants Regen and Recovery, which works based off your Maximum HP and Endurance pools.
In the build above, it's an average of 0.19 End/Sec and 2.22 HP/Sec.
 

(iv) The Panacea Unique grants +7.5% End and a set amount of HP (53.8126) at 3 PPM
Slotted into Health, it has a 50% chance of activating every 10 seconds.
That's an average of 3.75 Endurance every 10 seconds, or 0.375 End/Sec and 2.69063 HP/Sec
 

(v) The Second +5 Endurance IO in Stamina grants 0.21 End/Sec.

So for raw Endurance recovery, the priority is technically Panacea > Miracle > Performance Shifter > 2nd Stamina Slot > Numina.
However Numina grants a bit of Regen, which I tend to weight a bit higher on builds without any regular self-healing... and for the sake of only 0.04 End/Sec difference I'd rather have the guaranteed recovery from the 2nd Stamina slot than the "chance of" Endurance from the PS Proc.
If you really wanted to fit the PS Proc in that example build too, then you could drop the Rech/ToHit IO from Aim or the Defence IO from Combat Training:Defensive; but each of those would come with a tradeoff (you'd end up going well over the Proc cap on Guassian in Aim, and you'd drop under the softcap for Ranged Defence)
 

I know Crabs tend to be very Endurance hungry, but you don't need to run all the toggles all the time; and there are plenty of Temp Powers or Accolades (Geas of the Kind Ones springs to mind) that can help in a pinch. Worst case you can just swap to Ageless instead of Barrier if you find yourself having real difficulties. Although admittedly my own Crabber tends to run with a Bot/Kin MM, so I'm used to on-demand Speed Boost and Transference... 🙂

Edited September 4, 2021 by Maelwys

[SomeGuy]

15 hours ago, Maelwys said:

 

fit in permapets and softcapped defence

This is a reason why I went just a tap over 40%. I let perma barrier carry that last 5%. Even at it's weakest buff duration, it's 5%. I didn't have to sacrifice a ton to get that last 5%. Allowed a LOT of wiggle room.

 

The incarnates for that build are: Muscle, Reactive, Barrier, and Support. No clue what I get for judge/lore. They aren't always there so I don't really care.

Edited September 5, 2021 by SomeGuy

[Maelwys]

4 hours ago, SomeGuy said:

This is a reason why I went just a tap over 40%. I let perma barrier carry that last 5%. Even at it's weakest buff duration, it's 5%. I didn't have to sacrifice a ton to get that last 5%. Allowed a LOT of wiggle room.

 

The incarnates for that build are: Muscle, Reactive, Barrier, and Support. No clue what I get for judge/lore. They aren't always there so I don't really care.

 

Yep, you'll notice my example build does the same thing for Ranged defence. It's not bulletproof but it lets you maintain a decent balance across the rest of the build. Similar deal for the S/L resistances and the extra 10% you'll gain as you take damage via the reactive defences unique.

 

Void is great for Judgement. The damage debuff is guaranteed and lasts for ages, very useful in hard fights.

 

Lore is a matter of personal preference (there's a Google document floating around with a full numbers breakdown) - the Arachnos ones are thematic but for pure Damage it's hard to ignore Banished Pantheon. And plenty of the supportive ones have a "+5% defence to everything" AoE toggle.

[THEDarkTyger]

On 9/4/2021 at 6:55 AM, Maelwys said:

 

Lack of slots, mainly. Crab builds are quite tight, especially if you're trying to fit in permapets and softcapped defence/decent resists and HP and still proc-out and ED-cap the damage on your main attacks...


(i) The Performance Shifter Unique grants +10% End at 1.5 PPM
Slotted into Stamina, it has a 25% chance of activating every 10 seconds.
That's an average of 2.5 Endurance every 10 seconds, or 0.25 End/Sec.
 

(ii) The Miracle Unique grants Recovery, which works based off your maximum Endurance (buffable by set bonuses and accolades etc)
In the build above, it's an average of 0.29 End/Sec
 

(iii) The Numina Unique grants Regen and Recovery, which works based off your Maximum HP and Endurance pools.
In the build above, it's an average of 0.19 End/Sec and 2.22 HP/Sec.
 

(iv) The Panacea Unique grants +7.5% End and a set amount of HP (53.8126) at 3 PPM
Slotted into Health, it has a 50% chance of activating every 10 seconds.
That's an average of 3.75 Endurance every 10 seconds, or 0.375 End/Sec and 2.69063 HP/Sec
 

(v) The Second +5 Endurance IO in Stamina grants 0.21 End/Sec.

So for raw Endurance recovery, the priority is technically Panacea > Miracle > Performance Shifter > 2nd Stamina Slot > Numina.
However Numina grants a bit of Regen, which I tend to weight a bit higher on builds without any regular self-healing... and for the sake of only 0.04 End/Sec difference I'd rather have the guaranteed recovery from the 2nd Stamina slot than the "chance of" Endurance from the PS Proc.
If you really wanted to fit the PS Proc in that example build too, then you could drop the Rech/ToHit IO from Aim or the Defence IO from Combat Training:Defensive; but each of those would come with a tradeoff (you'd end up going well over the Proc cap on Guassian in Aim, and you'd drop under the softcap for Ranged Defence)
 

I know Crabs tend to be very Endurance hungry, but you don't need to run all the toggles all the time; and there are plenty of Temp Powers or Accolades (Geas of the Kind Ones springs to mind) that can help in a pinch. Worst case you can just swap to Ageless instead of Barrier if you find yourself having real difficulties. Although admittedly my own Crabber tends to run with a Bot/Kin MM, so I'm used to on-demand Speed Boost and Transference... 🙂

Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but it sounds like the PS proc + PS End Mod would still come out marginally better than just 2 EndMod IO's, plus have the benefit of the movement speed set bonus ( which is minor, but still ).

[Maelwys]

4 hours ago, THEDarkTyger said:

Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but it sounds like the PS proc + PS End Mod would still come out marginally better than just 2 EndMod IO's, plus have the benefit of the movement speed set bonus ( which is minor, but still ).

 

It does in terms of average recovery over time... but since it's coded as a chance to kick in every 10s, in practice it's a lot more 'spikey'. The proc rate is a lot lower than panacea - and I've found that often I won't see any endurance spikes from PS for ages, or it'll kick in whenever I'm already full and get "wasted".

 

That's why I noted "and for the sake of only 0.04 End/Sec difference I'd rather have the guaranteed recovery from the 2nd Stamina slot than the "chance of" Endurance from the PS Proc." - although admittedly that's probably getting into the territory of personal preferences.

 

By all means, work it into your build if you feel like doing so!

[THEDarkTyger]

I am a little confused why you keep bringing up end recovery pieces from Panacea and such. Those have no bearing on slotting PS into Stamina. You don't have to choose between Panacea or PS...

[Maelwys]

16 hours ago, THEDarkTyger said:

I am a little confused why you keep bringing up end recovery pieces from Panacea and such. Those have no bearing on slotting PS into Stamina. You don't have to choose between Panacea or PS...

 

Because whenever your build has exceedingly few "spare slots", including all of the potentially useful supportive IOs (such as the +Health and +Stamina uniques) becomes impossible. So you need to choose which ones to include based upon the performance boost each brings to the character.

 

That's why I included the comparison between the various endurance slotting options above: If a build only has one spare slot to use for boosting recovery, then it will only be able to choose ONE of those five options (likely panacea) and with two spare slots it can choose TWO (panacea and miracle?) etc. The build I posted has enough spare slots for four of them, which means that it needs to drop one. The PS proc was the one that didn't make the cut.

 

In my last post I was pointing out that the reason I personally treat PS as the "least desirable" option is because it has only has a Proc rate of 25%. This means that it is unreliable. Over the course of a minute it has a 18.00% chance of not kicking in (see cumulative binomial probability) compared to the "always active" additional recovery from a second IO in Stamina... and the theoretical performance difference between them is so slight (0.04 End/Sec) that PS becomes less attractive.

Panacea technically suffers from the same issue, but its higher proc rate of 50% means that it is much more reliable in practice than PS - over the course of a minute it has only a 1.56% chance of not kicking in, and its theoretical performance is also considerably higher.

 

Unfortunately due to the slotting constraints it's not simply a case of "slotting a PS proc into stamina", it's a case of "deciding what to give up in order to free up an enhancement slot in order to slot a PS proc into stamina". And as it stands each of the "loose" IOs in that particular build are already performing functions which grant more benefit (to my mind anyway) than a PS proc would give.

 

A similar notion applies for +perception (for example). Taking the Rectified Reticle unique and/or Power Pool Tactics would be potentially useful- they'd bring the character to the perception cap. But in order to include them you'd need to drop other IOs and power picks, and that trade-off simply wouldn't be worth it outside of very specific situations e.g. Stalker hunting in PVP.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Maelwys

[tidge]

I held off on posting in this thread simply because of the title (TL;DR "there is a difference between henchmen and pets") but on the sub-subject of Health/Regeneration and Endurance/Recovery slotting I think @Maelwys is making valid points.

 

Writing only for myself: I almost always find that characters while leveling up are much more Endurance hungry than end-game builds (even without considering Incarnates). Lack of slots (for Endurance reduction, for set bonuses) is the obvious reason. I almost always over-slot Recovery until I get to the first level 50 respec. I used to have a bias about "giving up" certain important (for leveling) enhancement pieces, but it's become second nature to take a good look at what those pieces are contributing to a level 50 build (including during exemplar content).

 

Some advice: Enhancement unslotters are a cheap mechanism for testing the impact of certain pieces in a build. You can't move power slots with them, but if you want to try going without a certain piece (or alternate slotting) they are fine for this.

 

Because I can't keep myself from writing this: I feel that a majority of builds (across all ATs) overvalue Regeneration. In game play, Health doesn't get 'spent' the same way Endurance does. It is much easier to mitigate Health 'expenses' (via Defense, Resistance) and frankly it is very hard to predict what level of Regeneration is optimal for any given build... especially for AT with relatively low Health caps. I'm not claiming it is impossible to establish a relatively precise level of regeneration for some specific content, but I feel that many builds simply go "Softcap Defense, Maximize S/L Resists, MOAR Regeneration".

[Maelwys]

3 hours ago, tidge said:

 I feel that many builds simply go "Softcap Defense, Maximize S/L Resists, MOAR Regeneration".

 

That's probably fairly accurate.

 

Personally I'd usually go "sufficient recharge" --> "damage output" --> "survivability". And for survivability I'd prefer softcapped defences first, then a mixture of resistances and maximum HP before looking too much into regeneration.

 

I'm not sure if people tend to drastically overvalue regeneration set bonuses due to the reputation that regen scrappers enjoyed back in the day...?

[tidge]

5 minutes ago, Maelwys said:

I'm not sure if people tend to drastically overvalue regeneration set bonuses due to the reputation that regen scrappers enjoyed back in the day...?

 

I dunno. I certainly value regeneration on Tankers; I don't play Brutes and (in my personal opinion) other ATs with smaller HP caps make extra Regeneration a secondary effect (at best).

 

I take the point about MOAR (Global) RECHARGE. I will take MOAR if it is in easy reach (LotG) or comes from otherwise synergistic (bonuses from enhancement sets that scale well, e.g. Purple, PVP and ATO), but if I can have a smooth (enough) chain of "clicky things to do" I often find myself not caring about something like Hasten... even if it is in my build! Less recharge is a perfectly acceptable Endurance management strategy (even for button mashers)!

 

I tell a different story if there is a specific power that I want available as often as possible: My Crabbermind has more than enough recharge to be able to resummon all of the pets (including Epic) by the time the natural period of pet duration expires.

 

I have personal opinions (which vary per build) but I'm not critical of other players' attitudes to Recharge, including prioritization.

[THEDarkTyger]

On 9/7/2021 at 4:08 AM, Maelwys said:

 

Because whenever your build has exceedingly few "spare slots", including all of the potentially useful supportive IOs (such as the +Health and +Stamina uniques) becomes impossible. So you need to choose which ones to include based upon the performance boost each brings to the character.

 

What's confusing me here is the build ALREADY HAS THE SLOTS in Stamina to slot a PS +end and PS EndMod. The difference in end recovery would be better, but only slightly, plus have the benefit of the move speed set bonus without needing any extra slots. I'm not talking about adding them to what's already there, but replacing the plain EndMod IO's already in Stamina. The figures you gave indicate that it'd be slightly better, so why not go with that?

 

I'm sorry if I sound argumentative, I'm just trying to understand the decision. So far the explanations you've given don't apply because you're talking about not enough slots but it doesn't require moving a single slot.

Edited September 11, 2021 by THEDarkTyger

[Maelwys]

8 hours ago, THEDarkTyger said:

What's confusing me here is the build ALREADY HAS THE SLOTS in Stamina to slot a PS +end and PS EndMod. The difference in end recovery would be better, but only slightly, plus have the benefit of the move speed set bonus without needing any extra slots. I'm not talking about adding them to what's already there, but replacing the plain EndMod IO's already in Stamina. The figures you gave indicate that it'd be slightly better, so why not go with that?

 

I've covered that already, no less than three times:

 

Quote

and for the sake of only 0.04 End/Sec difference I'd rather have the guaranteed recovery from the 2nd Stamina slot than the "chance of" Endurance from the PS Proc

 

Quote

'It does in terms of average recovery over time... but since it's coded as a chance to kick in every 10s, in practice it's a lot more 'spikey'. The proc rate is a lot lower than panacea - and I've found that often I won't see any endurance spikes from PS for ages, or it'll kick in whenever I'm already full and get "wasted".

 

Quote

In my last post I was pointing out that the reason I personally treat PS as the "least desirable" option is because it has only has a Proc rate of 25%. This means that it is unreliable. Over the course of a minute it has a 18.00% chance of not kicking in (see cumulative binomial probability) compared to the "always active" additional recovery from a second IO in Stamina... and the theoretical performance difference between them is so slight (0.04 End/Sec) that PS becomes less attractive.

 

I'm really not sure how many more ways I can put this. It's beginning to feel a bit like a certain scene from Red Dwarf...

 

I'll try one last time: Because it would only grant an extremely minor theoretical average benefit over time, but in practice the build's endurance recovery would be become much less consistent/reliable.

 

"PS Proc + PS EndMod" vs "Two regular +5 EndMod IOs" ---> In order for the PS proc to become the better option you'd need to always be sitting at under 90% Endurance, but never bottoming out. Therefore you'd have to continually carefully juggle the use of your powers in such a manner that you remain under 90% and above 0% endurance regardless of how often the PS proc actually kicks in. And that is highly impractical.

 

Quote

I'm sorry if I sound argumentative, I'm just trying to understand the decision. So far the explanations you've given don't apply because you're talking about not enough slots but it doesn't require moving a single slot.

 

No worries, likewise I'm not trying to argue, merely trying to explain the reasoning for my decision.

 

The explanations I've given have all related to my earlier post where I listed five recovery slotting options. One of those options was slotting a second EndMod IO into Stamina.

 

The build I posted currently has a second EndMod IO in Stamina. If you took that IO out and replaced it with a PS proc then you'd still be at least one enhancement slot short of the "ideal" (which is to have all the Healing uniques plus both a second EndMod IO AND a PS proc in Stamina). And therein lies the problem.

 

Ordinarily I'd figure out a build's optimal attack chain and calculate its Endurance consumption, then build the character so that they meet that consumption plus a little extra for leeway. However it's very difficult to do this for a Crabbermind because the powers they use will vary wildly depending on the situation (buffs, AOE, ST). The most foolproof method would be to drop all the slots in Health and Stamina and just use Ageless instead of Barrier... but doing that negatively impacts your pets' survivability... so we're brought back to the original point that Crabbermind builds are ridiculously tight on enhancement slots and getting everything you could possibly want on them simultaneously is impossible. 

 

So the best solution I can come up with is to produce a build that ticks all the boxes for sufficient recharge, damage output and survivability... then try to get as much reliable endurance recovery as possible using the remaining enhancement slots.

Edited September 11, 2021 by Maelwys

[Nemu]

I started a crab yesterday on a whim, I remember some discussions around the guassian proc doing well in tactics/leadership based on the number of teammates you have and if that applies to the pets, it might be a good place to stick it.

 

Thanks for the analysis on the soulbound build up proc, very insightful. I incorporated that into my build.

 

My experiences playing melee blasters has shown me that S/L and Ranged defense covers 99% of all attacks out there, the SOA have the benefit of upping their Psi def as well so I did that as well. Here's the end result:

 

This Villain build was built using Mids Reborn 3.0.4.7
https://github.com/Reborn-Team/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Crabby Panda: Level 50 Natural Arachnos Soldier
Primary Power Set: Crab Spider Soldier
Secondary Power Set: Crab Spider Training
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Slice -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(A), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(3), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(3), SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(5), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(5), SprSpdBit-Rchg/Global Toxic(7)
Level 1: Crab Spider Armor Upgrade -- GldArm-3defTpProc(A)
Level 2: Longfang -- Dvs-Acc/Dmg(A), Dvs-Dmg/EndRdx(7), Dvs-Dmg/Rchg(9), Dvs-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(9), Dvs-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), Dvs-Hold%(15)
Level 4: Combat Training: Defensive -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 6: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), WntGif-ResSlow(34), Ksm-ToHit+(34)
Level 8: Suppression -- AchHee-ResDeb%(A), Rgn-Dmg(37), Rgn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), Rgn-Acc/Rchg(43), Rgn-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Rgn-Knock%(45)
Level 10: Tactical Training: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(11), ShlWal-Def(11), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(13)
Level 12: Venom Grenade -- SprDmnofA-Acc/Dmg(A), SprDmnofA-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(17), SprDmnofA-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(17), SprDmnofA-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23), SprDmnofA-Rchg/DmgFear%(34)
Level 14: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), HO:Cyto(15)
Level 16: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 18: Frag Grenade -- Ann-ResDeb%(A), FrcFdb-Rechg%(19), OvrFrc-Dam/KB(19), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg(21), SprFrzBls-Dmg/EndRdx(21), SprFrzBls-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(23)
Level 20: Tactical Training: Leadership -- GssSynFr--Build%(A), RctRtc-ToHit(27), RctRtc-Pcptn(46)
Level 22: Mental Training -- Run-I(A)
Level 24: Fortification -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), UnbGrd-ResDam(25), StdPrt-ResKB(25), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(46)
Level 26: Frenzy -- FuroftheG-ResDeb%(A), Arm-Dmg(27), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), Arm-Acc/Rchg(29), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(33), Arm-Dam%(33)
Level 28: Tough -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(45), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(46), UnbGrd-Max HP%(48)
Level 30: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-Def(31), Rct-Def/EndRdx(31), Rct-ResDam%(31)
Level 32: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(33)
Level 35: Summon Spiderlings -- CaltoArm-Acc/Dmg(A), CaltoArm-Dmg/EndRdx(36), CaltoArm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), CaltoArm-+Def(Pets)(36), HO:Nucle(37), EdcoftheM-PetDef(37)
Level 38: Call Reinforcements -- ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(39), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg(39), SlbAll-Dmg/Rchg(40), SlbAll-Build%(40)
Level 41: Gloom -- Apc-Dmg(A), Apc-Dmg/Rchg(42), Apc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Apc-Acc/Rchg(42), Apc-Dmg/EndRdx(43), Apc-Dam%(43)
Level 44: Darkest Night -- HO:Enzym(A)
Level 47: Summon Widow -- ExpRnf-Acc/Rchg(A), ExpRnf-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(47), ExpRnf-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg(47), ExpRnf-+Res(Pets)(48), SlbAll-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), SlbAll-Dmg(49)
Level 49: Serum -- DctWnd-Heal/Rchg(A)
Level 1: Conditioning | Hidden 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- UnbLea-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 50: Born In Battle 
Level 50: High Pain Threshold 
Level 50: Invader 
Level 50: Marshal 
Level 50: Cardiac Radial Paragon 
------------
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