Fixing /Dark Manipulation

[WindDemon21]

If instead of that, what they could do, is merge both dark regeneration from melee dark armor, and dark sustenance I think it's called from sentinels. Then be similar between dark regen and drain psyche. Where you cast it as an aoe, you'll get some heal/end off targets, but also have a lasting sustain buff. So like, drain psyche with an upfront heal/endurance pop, and then a weaker regen/recovery over the duration (shorter recharge like 1 minute versus 2)

[WindDemon21]

10 hours ago, capricorpse said:

personally i do not like having my sustain power baked into an AoE DoT power.  i usually skip those, or use them in certain situations but not others, but now I can't on the sets that have everything stacked on it.  so i think the touch of beyond is refreshing in that it's not part of death shroud.

I can sew this too which is why I more-so suggest a wider radius cloak of fear instead but it would have to be mag 3 or would be kinda pointless since blasters should be decimating minions easily anyway.

 

But I'll go to the most obvious choice is just having cloak of darkness stealth toggle with sustain like the /dev sustain.

[capricorpse]

On 4/28/2023 at 10:16 PM, WindDemon21 said:

I can sew this too which is why I more-so suggest a wider radius cloak of fear instead but it would have to be mag 3 or would be kinda pointless since blasters should be decimating minions easily anyway.

 

But I'll go to the most obvious choice is just having cloak of darkness stealth toggle with sustain like the /dev sustain.

haha ok i'm sorry but tbh this would annoy me even more.  for a lot of people, a big part of the game is making costumes and seeing your character do cool stuff.  i appreciate stealth powers, and i use them when i want to be stealthy, but i really don't like the ones that make you a little amorphous cloud.  if the necessary sustain power was merged with one like that i would probably never play my /dark blaster again.

 

i kind of get what you're going for but i also don't totally understand what the original issue is with it.  i'm pretty sure the regen and recovery is auto hit, the recharge allows you to have it up all the time, and there's tons of dark powers that require enemies to use so it's on theme.   

 

[WindDemon21]

On 5/1/2023 at 12:16 PM, capricorpse said:

haha ok i'm sorry but tbh this would annoy me even more.  for a lot of people, a big part of the game is making costumes and seeing your character do cool stuff.  i appreciate stealth powers, and i use them when i want to be stealthy, but i really don't like the ones that make you a little amorphous cloud.  if the necessary sustain power was merged with one like that i would probably never play my /dark blaster again.

 

i kind of get what you're going for but i also don't totally understand what the original issue is with it.  i'm pretty sure the regen and recovery is auto hit, the recharge allows you to have it up all the time, and there's tons of dark powers that require enemies to use so it's on theme.   

 

The problem is needing a target to cast on which means you can't cast before/out of battle and it eats up cast time at the beginning of fights that should be used to alpha strike and such.

 

Regarding  your issue with it, they can simply have a min-fx option and that problem is easily solved.

[Nyghtmaire]

On 5/23/2023 at 1:12 PM, WindDemon21 said:

The problem is needing a target to cast on which means you can't cast before/out of battle and it eats up cast time at the beginning of fights that should be used to alpha strike and such.

Don’t know how I missed this thread before, but so it goes. TotB is better used during the mop-up phase before you proceed to the next spawn. If it is the first spawn of the map, my standard practice is open with Umbral Torrent, fly in to fire Soul Drain, hit Black Star, Dark Consumption to even out endurance while I’m flying back to range, then hit TotB, cone city mop up while single targeting bosses. TotB on last 1 or 2 mobs then onto next group. 
 

Overall (and I’ve read through the thread and appreciate everyone’s perspective), I’m on the “it’s okay” side of things (ranged dark/dark/soul on Everlasting). I like that its range. I like the fear and -ToHit component and use it for this purpose when I’m soloing. It’s just one more layer of soft control that happens to be awesome at recovery. (Currently slotted with 6 Cloud Senses mainly for exemping and run Musculature Radial for Alpha to boost endurance modification and ToHit debuff).

 

Dark Shroud - since I play primarily at range except when I duck in to set up Black Star, I’ve skipped it. I think damage toggles tend to be a trap on blasters generally and wouldn’t take unless to mule a set or if the power did something else (like stealth, fear or more -ToHit). Since already slot starved, very unlikely in current iteration.
 

Soul Drain is fine as-is. I like the jousting (thanks @Nemu!) and have it perma with lucky FFB procs in Umbral Torrent. It is still a 50%+ damage boost for 30 seconds (compared to Aim, which is 62.5 for 10, or equivalent to 20.833 over same time period). This power rocks.

 

Not a fan of blaster Shadow Maul and specced out of a more melee-focused build because of this. Any change is fine. Although I would prefer if blasters got Touch of Fear from Dark Melee to stack with TotB. Better fit to theme.

 

This is my favorite character with the most badges, vet levels, multiple incarnate abilities, and most trashy temp powers. Won’t turn down a pass-through of Dark Manipulation, but it’s very comfortable and makes sense to me.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Nyghtmaire

[WindDemon21]

1 hour ago, Nyghtmaire said:

Soul Drain is fine as-is. I like the jousting (thanks @Nemu!) and have it perma with lucky FFB procs in Umbral Torrent. It is still a 50%+ damage boost for 30 seconds (compared to Aim, which is 62.5 for 10, or equivalent to 20.833 over same time period). This power rocks.

Just pointing out, it's in the secondary, so you compare it to build up, not aim. But It is pretty much fine, I'd always say for a 90s rech vs 120s one though just for ease of use, can be flagged to not stack.

 

Knowing how to use the sustain isn't the issue, as much as the requirement of needing to cast it on the enemy to benefit from it. At the very least it's a huge annoyance, and using the control part of it, can just as easily be served but that control aspects being it's own power, and merging the sustain with death shroud.

 

Also, stating how you think it's fine yet are skipping a lot of the powers, doesn't really coincide that the set is ok lol. You may not mind it, but the set does clearly have these issues for most people.

[Nyghtmaire]

17 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Just pointing out, it's in the secondary, so you compare it to build up, not aim. But It is pretty much fine, I'd always say for a 90s rech vs 120s one though just for ease of use, can be flagged to not stack.

Very fair point. Buildup is 100% for 10 seconds, or equivalent to 33.3%  over 30 seconds. This is ignoring that Soul Drain *can* be made perma; Build up cannot under any circumstances. 
 

I hear what you’re saying. And I’ll reiterate, no objection to changing shadow maul and shroud. But most of the complaints in this thread re TotB seem to involve scenarios that speak to inefficient usage or not appreciating the design. If the latter, player may as well recolor a different secondary with a toggle sustain and headcannon it emo.

[WindDemon21]

55 minutes ago, Nyghtmaire said:

Very fair point. Buildup is 100% for 10 seconds, or equivalent to 33.3%  over 30 seconds. This is ignoring that Soul Drain *can* be made perma; Build up cannot under any circumstances. 
 

I hear what you’re saying. And I’ll reiterate, no objection to changing shadow maul and shroud. But most of the complaints in this thread re TotB seem to involve scenarios that speak to inefficient usage or not appreciating the design. If the latter, player may as well recolor a different secondary with a toggle sustain and headcannon it emo.

Right, not needing to compare it for much was just stating.

 

But regarding the sustain, it definitely should do it's job on it's own and not be tied to a single target control power. If the power were aoe at least then it'd be something comparable to its usage type, similar to how drain psyche is ok because it's aoe and does so much more, but for this power, on a single target mez that is often not used/needed it goes against the nature of the sustains, and like i said, might as well just have its own separate single target control power in the set, and leave the sustain to do it's job on its own.

 

Since there is already a precedence for the aoe damage aura to also be the sustain like in dynamo and cauterizing aura, there's really no reason they couldn't at least just merge the two and then have this single target mez power work on it's own, which also allows for actual mez slotting compared to this power which you need to slot for the regen/recovery factor so can't really resolve the power to itself anyway. Point being, that it can't be used when starting a mob without interrupting your chain and leaving you open versus using another power to kill/aoe/etc, but then using it after also means you're not getting the benefit of the sustain regen/recovery during the fight as well. It's just a bad design even if you don't have an issue with it, MANY others do. Just look at the current statistics on how few actually take /dark on blasters, this is the main reason why.

[Zect]

/dark is fine, none of these changes are necessary. The sustain power being a mez has its own pros and cons (costs dpa but doesn't suppress when mezzed, mules 4x cloud senses).

Edited May 24, 2023 by Zect

[atletikus]

I wanted to like Dark Manipulation, but it's got some issues. There are some real stinkers in the set that should have been given the new Blaster treatment. 

1. Tier 1 immobilize given some front-loaded damage. Should be universal for all similar *Blaster* powers including Tenebrous Tentacles imo. Lower duration to half.
2. Instead of turning Death Shroud into a dark version of Dynamo as suggested, perhaps looking at power interactions a bit like /Temporal would be a way to have more variety. For instance, Touch of the Beyond could be made to temporarily boost the Shroud to double in radius, damage and extend the -ToHit to all within for a few seconds. This would potentially make the long rooting animation of Shadow Maul less detrimental as well and open up for more tactical use of the powers in general. 
3. Slower recharge of Touch of the Beyond as needed. 
4. Extend all pbAoE radius to 10 feet base to match Soul Drain (Death Shroud + Dark Consumption). Faster recharge of Dark Consumption to match Soul Drain (120s).

Set "fixed" 🙂

Edited May 25, 2023 by atletikus

[WindDemon21]

19 hours ago, Zect said:

/dark is fine, none of these changes are necessary. The sustain power being a mez has its own pros and cons (costs dpa but doesn't suppress when mezzed, mules 4x cloud senses).

Except then you're not slotting heal/end into it which is supposed to be it's main use. Bad. Again, IE make sustain it's own, separate the TOF type power. Truth be told I don't even like the damage auras being part of the sustain in dynamo/CA, but it definitely makes more sense and at least doesn't have an end cost though. But this type of power is just bad, as I'm pretty sure any current numbers would still show /dark at the absolute bottom of the blaster secondaries list. It was in 2020 besides /nin, I'm sure it still is, which again, this is the MAIN reason it is so.

[High_Beam]

I have a Dark/Dark Blaster on Excelsior called Auntie Umbra and I have great fun playing her.  I like others did not take the melee powers and built her to be more of a ranger and her set allows that.  Oh sure I will in close for some Dark Consumption and Blackstar action but mostly, at range doing my darkity dark dark thing.

 

I am not super detail numbers guy, I generaly comment based on how my character feels when I play and I have very little to complain about as it stands with the powers available as they are now.  I find her more robust than other Blasters.

Edited May 30, 2023 by High_Beam
fixed my spelling. I am a blaster after all.

[WindDemon21]

23 hours ago, High_Beam said:

I have a Dark/Dark Blaster on Excelsior called Auntie Umbra and I have great fun playing her.  I like others did not take the melee powers and built her to be more of a ranger and her set allows that.  Oh sure I will in close for some Dark Consumption and Blackstar action but mostly, at range doing my darkity dark dark thing.

 

I am not super detail numbers guy, I generaly comment based on how my character feels when I play and I have very little to complain about as it stands with the powers available as they are now.  I find her more robust than other Blasters.

That's all being chocked up to dark blast though really, not /dark. Again, if you're saying you skip most of the powers, that really means that the set isn't up to par lol.

[High_Beam]

1 hour ago, WindDemon21 said:

That's all being chocked up to dark blast though really, not /dark. Again, if you're saying you skip most of the powers, that really means that the set isn't up to par lol.

No I mean Dark/Dark.  I totally use everything there except Smite, Shadow Maul and Midnight Grasp (as I said no melee).  Soul Drain goes off just before I Blackstar their asses.  Touch of Beyond is fundamentally spammed.  In team furballs I am wading in and firing Dark Consumption.  But from Range in addition to all of the Dark Blast goodness there is Penumbral Grasp with its -Tohit and Dark Pit for disorient.  So many wonderful tools to work with.  Now I don't fire off the Shroud that often due to it being an aggro magnet, but when the team has the enemy busy, sure its on doing a little (though I am tempted to dump it for something, I just havent looked hard at it)

[WindDemon21]

20 hours ago, High_Beam said:

No I mean Dark/Dark.  I totally use everything there except Smite, Shadow Maul and Midnight Grasp (as I said no melee).  Soul Drain goes off just before I Blackstar their asses.  Touch of Beyond is fundamentally spammed.  In team furballs I am wading in and firing Dark Consumption.  But from Range in addition to all of the Dark Blast goodness there is Penumbral Grasp with its -Tohit and Dark Pit for disorient.  So many wonderful tools to work with.  Now I don't fire off the Shroud that often due to it being an aggro magnet, but when the team has the enemy busy, sure its on doing a little (though I am tempted to dump it for something, I just havent looked hard at it)

Penumbral: Sucks, but most all secondaries have this standard tier 1 immobilize, Penumbral is actually one of the worst because it has one of the longest cast times at 1.67s. Also 5.25% - to hit, which scales down to 4.2% or 3.41% to only a single target at that huge cast time, is really not worth the tradeoff and certainly not worth fitting in your attack chain.

 

ToB: as stated is one of the biggest issues with the set. The fact that you HAVE to cast it just to get the sustain is a big point of contention when it's only doing the same sustain that almost every other set has as a toggle on and forget - doesn't impact blasting time power. And the other click ones, are able to be done out of battle and not hinder anything. What you say is good, is actually just the same thing other sets get, but better.

 

Soul Drain: This is arguably pretty much the only reason to go /dark. Even for what it does, it also still has its drawbacks versus just a standard aim or power like shinobi/targetting drone/reach for the limit. But at that, even in a perfect scenario where you're perma-ing it on full mobs, it still has the melee-risk, and means you can't use it prior to nuking/alpha volleying from safety. It's fairly balanced around all regards, though QoL wise I'd still call for a 90s rech versus a 120s one.

 

But again in all regards that this is about the sole reason to go /dark, it doesn't make up for all the drawbacks of the set. /dark needs fixed, that's the end of the contention there. All things the same, for the VERY few who think it's fine, there are MANY who think it needs fixed, and regardless, fixing the set, would not hinder those few who think it's "ok" as is.

 

 

[High_Beam]

2 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

But again in all regards that this is about the sole reason to go /dark, it doesn't make up for all the drawbacks of the set. /dark needs fixed, that's the end of the contention there. All things the same, for the VERY few who think it's fine, there are MANY who think it needs fixed, and regardless, fixing the set, would not hinder those few who think it's "ok" as is.

That's cool, if they do something to it, that's cool too.  All I am saying is that many of the powers are useful and players do take them and the set is not totally broken.  I am not trying to convert anyone in either direction.