Change Confront and Assassin's Strike into a distance-closing attack

[Solvernia]

Just now, Arbegla said:

 

Again, I'm about 95% sure that Taunt/Confront gives a -range debuff, which forces mobs to come to you, as they can't use their ranged attacks (due to the -range debuff) so the powers aren't actually useless at all. There is also corner pulling, and other tactics you can use to get the mobs to come to you.

Also, you're playing a melee character, why aren't you running to the next group before the ranged characters get to them? Ranged characters are also limited by movement suppression, and very few powers are greater then 80ft range, so movement is definitely involved in City of Heroes combat.

It forces... five mobs to come to you. That's it. In fact, it only makes things worse since it breaks up the pack, reducing AoE effectiveness and making the game harder to play.

 

The only reasonable use for Taunt right now is to take aggro from your allies. Which is a great use, but not when it's limited to only one, or only five, enemies. A gap closer would be better as it would allow you to immediately follow up with an AoE attack to take all the attention off your allies, not just the attention of a single enemy.

 

Why do Scrappers have taunt in the first place? They are not tanks. They literally can't tank because they can't hold aggro. Confront does not help with this. Nobody takes Confront. Replace it with something better.

[Solvernia]

8 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

What you see as a core feature of an AT, most of us don't. And I think that is the overall problem here. I can't check mids to conform that Sprint/Swift/Hurdle give you 40mph max combat speed, but I'm pretty sure you can get higher numbers that that. Also, there are outside buffs, like Speed Boost, and Accelerated Metabolism that increase movement speed without suppressing it in combat.

And combat suppression only lasts a few seconds one way or the other, so if you want to run between groups with Super Speed or Super Jump you can easily do that, and its not hard to adjust to the speed differences with the right mouse control.

The point I'm trying to make is that you're solving a problem that doesn't seem to exist to the majority of the players of the game, and we're trying to tell you options to take that would solve this problem without the typical code rant of fundamentally changing the game.

 

40-50 mph is the best you can get, which is painfully slow. Speed boosts from allies are more of a hindrance than a help -- why do you think Null the Gull has an option to remove them in the first place?

 

Combat suppression is still incredibly, horribly obnoxious. Constantly going between 40mph run speed and 120mph run speed makes the game very frustrating to play. I would advocate for its removal entirely, but it still wouldn't solve the issue of people playing most melee powersets having to gimp their builds in order to have more efficient combat mobility.

 

Giving melee ATs the ability to close the distance does not fundamentally change the game. They can already do this albeit at the cost of having to waste a power pool selection to do so (Experimentation, which is a set that is 80% useless, or Teleport, which is 60% useless.) If you pick Speed of Sound, you can't pick any other origin-based pool sets.

 

Taking a gap closer as a melee AT requires you to sacrifice other pool power selections to do so, which is not fun. Making it a core feature of the AT by replacing the useless taunt/confront would give them better options for pool power picks, which means more fun.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Solvernia

[Arbegla]

1 minute ago, Solvernia said:

It forces... five mobs to come to you. That's it. In fact, it only makes things worse since it breaks up the pack, reducing AoE effectiveness and making the game harder to play.

 

The only reasonable use for Taunt right now is to take aggro from your allies. Which is a great use, but not when it's limited to only one, or only five, enemies. A gap closer would be better as it would allow you to immediately follow up with an AoE attack to take all the attention off your allies, not just the attention of a single enemy.

 

Why do Scrappers have taunt in the first place? They are not tanks. They literally can't tank because they can't hold aggro. Confront does not help with this. Nobody takes Confront. Replace it with something better.

 

Actually Tanker/Brute Taunt targets 10 mobs, and its autohit. Some Scrappers have taunt auras in their armor sets if they don't have a damage aura, and some melee sets actually have damage auras in them, which stack with taunt already (and have a short, 10ft range?)

At this point, the argument boils down to "I don't know/understand how to play Melee characters in City of Heroes, but I know/understand how to play them in <insert other game> so make City of Heroes more like <insert other game>."

This isn't <insert other game> and the mechanics here are MUCH different then <insert other game>. Very very few MMOs let you take on 20+ equal level or higher mobs and have any chance of survival. City of Heroes basically encourages that behavior due to the way mobs are thrown at you left and right in missions.

[Solvernia]

7 minutes ago, Arbegla said:

 

Actually Tanker/Brute Taunt targets 10 mobs, and its autohit. Some Scrappers have taunt auras in their armor sets if they don't have a damage aura, and some melee sets actually have damage auras in them, which stack with taunt already (and have a short, 10ft range?)

At this point, the argument boils down to "I don't know/understand how to play Melee characters in City of Heroes, but I know/understand how to play them in <insert other game> so make City of Heroes more like <insert other game>."

This isn't <insert other game> and the mechanics here are MUCH different then <insert other game>. Very very few MMOs let you take on 20+ equal level or higher mobs and have any chance of survival. City of Heroes basically encourages that behavior due to the way mobs are thrown at you left and right in missions.

I've been playing since 2007. I understand how to play melee characters. I almost exclusively played melee characters on live. That doesn't make them any less frustrating or annoying to maneuver in combat.

 

The addition of Combat Teleport and Speed of Sound was fantastic and alleviated a lot of the problems I had with combat mobility, but it's not enough. They still require you to waste one of your four pool picks on a single power.

 

It would be far better to replace the useless taunt/confront with a useful gap closer. There is a good reason that melee classes in other games have this functionality and that's because having to slowly run up to a group of enemies in order to use your abilities is not fun, no matter what game you are playing.

 

Your argument seems to boils down to "I don't want this game to be like other games", which is fine most of the time. Games should absolutely have their own identity. But "I want this game to be frustrating and unfun because I don't want this game to be like other games" is a shitty argument.

 

I don't really care if the mechanics are different from other games. That's fine, they can be different. But there's no reason to resist a change that would only objectively improve the quality of gameplay and make more people comfortable using melee ATs.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Solvernia

[PeregrineFalcon]

5 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

"Other games do it" is a very valid argument.

No. Other games do it is NOT a valid argument.

 

However, this IS a valid argument:

7 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

Because every other developer realizes it makes the class more fun to play.

And I even agree with this. I personally love my favorite gap closer, Force Leap. If it weren't for that one ability I'm not sure that I'd still be playing SWTOR. So I agree with you on this.

 

However, I don't want to see the Taunt power changed. I use Taunt a lot. And, I don't want to see the developers spend a bunch of time adding something to the game that's already in the game.

 

Ultimately, your only objection is that the gap closer is in a pool power instead of in the powerset itself. So I'd like to ask you, how will the game be improved by breaking the Cottage Rule and changing Taunt into (essentially) Combat Teleport, which you can already take?

[Arbegla]

2 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

Giving melee ATs the ability to close the distance does not fundamentally change the game. They can already do this albeit at the cost of having to waste a power pool selection to do so (Experimentation, which is a set that is 80% useless, or Teleport, which is 60% useless.) If you pick Speed of Sound, you can't pick any other origin-based pool sets.

 

Taking a gap closer as a melee AT requires you to sacrifice other pool power selections to do so, which is not fun. Making it a core feature of the AT by replacing the useless taunt/confront would give them better options for pool power picks, which means more fun.

So... lets dive into the power pools for a second.

Hover -> Doesn't suppress in combat, stacks with swift, and Evasive Maneuvers.
Evasive Maneuvers -> Doesn't suppress in combat, stacks with swift, and Hover.

Combat Jumping -> Doesn't suppress in combat, stacks with Sprint, Hurdle, and Swift. Gives pretty decent inertial control, and +jump speed, allowing you to bunny hop to mobs.
Spring Attack -> Another Lightning Rod clone, letting you teleport into a group of mobs.
Combat Teleport -> Teleports you to the mobs

Fold Space -> Teleports the mobs to you.

 

All of the above powers are also in very common travel power pools, meaning you can pick them up while also getting your travel power. You have a TON of powers to pick from between your primary, secondary, epic, and power pool powers.

That's also not counting the fact that ranged characters also have to deal with traveling in combat, and are affected by travel suppression as well.

[Solvernia]

Other games wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't for good reason.

 

You remember how boomers would tell you "if everyone jumped off a bridge, would you do it?" The answer is yes, I would, because people generally don't jump off bridges for no reason. If everyone's jumping off a bridge, there's a very good reason they are doing it, one that everyone agrees would be preferable to the alternative.

 

Every modern MMO has gap closers for their melee characters because melee characters are objectively more fun when they have gap closers. They're not doing it just because everyone else does it, they're doing it because it's a good thing to do.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Solvernia

[Solvernia]

Just now, Arbegla said:

So... lets dive into the power pools for a second.

Hover -> Doesn't suppress in combat, stacks with swift, and Evasive Maneuvers.
Evasive Maneuvers -> Doesn't suppress in combat, stacks with swift, and Hover.

Combat Jumping -> Doesn't suppress in combat, stacks with Sprint, Hurdle, and Swift. Gives pretty decent inertial control, and +jump speed, allowing you to bunny hop to mobs.
Spring Attack -> Another Lightning Rod clone, letting you teleport into a group of mobs.
Combat Teleport -> Teleports you to the mobs

Fold Space -> Teleports the mobs to you.

 

All of the above powers are also in very common travel power pools, meaning you can pick them up while also getting your travel power. You have a TON of powers to pick from between your primary, secondary, epic, and power pool powers.

That's also not counting the fact that ranged characters also have to deal with traveling in combat, and are affected by travel suppression as well.

 

Spring Attack requires you to take two other Jumping pool abilities. If you already have Combat Jumping and Super Jump, that's fine. Unfortunately, the horribly long recharge and the absolutely worthless damage, and the fact that it doesn't even proc slot well, are not fine.

 

Combat Teleport and Jaunt from Speed of Sound are great for this purpose but again they require you to spend an entire pool choice on what will be only one power. If you want to take Teleport Target and Fold Space on top of Combat Teleport, that's a better use of the pick, sure.

 

But my argument is that a gap closer should be a core feature of the AT, like it is in every other game. Incorporating a gap closer into taunt/confront to bring yourself to the enemies you want to taunt would be a much better choice than making a handful of enemies slowly stroll over to you, or slowly strolling over to them. It would only be an improvement.

[Arbegla]

1 minute ago, Solvernia said:

Other games wouldn't be doing it if it wasn't for good reason.

 

You remember how boomers would tell you "if everyone jumped off a bridge, would you do it?" The answer is yes, I would, because people generally don't jump off bridges for no reason. If everyone's jumping off a bridge, there's a very good reason they are doing it, one that everyone agrees would be preferable to the alternative.

 

Every modern MMO has gap closers for their melee characters because melee characters are objectively more fun when they have gap closers. They're not doing it just because everyone else does it, they're doing it because it's a good thing to do.

 

Ok, lets play devils advocate for a second.

 

Please list other games that also let you take on 20+ mobs and have any chance of survival? Please list how many mobs the "gap closer" actually closes the gap on, and what is the uptime of that power? (i/e how often can you use it, is it only available out of combat, etc) Please list other games where you can travel 40+mph in combat at all times.

Also, you're flat out ignoring that Taunt in City of Heroes already provides a -range debuff, which forces the mobs to come you to, thus being a gap closer in and of itself.

[Solvernia]

6 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

However, I don't want to see the Taunt power changed. I use Taunt a lot. And, I don't want to see the developers spend a bunch of time adding something to the game that's already in the game.

 

The only thing that would change is that it would bring you to your taunted targets instead of slooooowly bringing the taunted targets to you. I'm not saying remove taunt entirely, although honestly that wouldn't change much -- given that Brutes and Tanks already taunt with every attack.

[Rudra]

53 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

 

 

Considering how travel powers are suppressed in combat, this makes moving from group to group incredibly frustrating. 40mph run/jump is not fun in the middle of combat when enemy groups are very far apart. It also makes it difficult to control your character when travel suppression suddenly ends and you're sailing far away from your intended target. This is ancient, outdated game design and it is not fun.

 

I should not be forced to take a pool power in order to do something that should be a basic function of melee classes, like it is in every other modern MMO. There is absolutely no reason to take taunt on scrappers no matter how hard you try to justify it, and it's much less useful than, say, a targeted AoE attack for grabbing aggro on brutes and tanks, so repurpose it into a power that does the same thing but in a way that doesn't make the game unfun to play.

Where are you fighting that a 40 mph move is not fast enough to reach the next set of mobs?!

 

25 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

The ranged power in these sets aren't super useful except either as a filler attack or to catch enemies running away from you. They serve no purpose when it comes to quickly and effectively closing the distance with a group of enemies so you can actually play the game. The ranged attack from epic pools also significantly outperforms them, which is honestly an issue in itself, but not the issue I'm discussing now.

 

The issue I'm discussing now is that melee ATs are frustrating to play because of their outdated design and lack of a gap closer (unless you waste a pool power pick on one), and it would be very simple to replace the useless taunt/confront with something that does the same thing but is much less annoying and unfun to use.

The ranged attacks are for picking off targets that will not close, such as that pesky PC flier in PvP when you lack Flight, and for pissing off targets to convince them to close. It is not ideal, but it does help.

 

33 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

 

Just because a game isn't modern doesn't mean you can't modernize it. Sprint+Swift+Hurdle+CJ only confers about 40mph run/jump, which is horribly slow in the distances involved in gameplay. It also requires taking Combat Jumping, which not every build wants to do.

 

Why should I be forced to take unnecessary pool powers to do something that should be a core feature of an AT, like it is in every other game that features melee-oriented classes?

While the devs are not maintaining a museum piece, they are maintaining the core of the game as best they can while they grow it. CoX is not a modern game. So there is no point comparing it to one.

 

17 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

It forces... five mobs to come to you. That's it. In fact, it only makes things worse since it breaks up the pack, reducing AoE effectiveness and making the game harder to play.

 

The only reasonable use for Taunt right now is to take aggro from your allies. Which is a great use, but not when it's limited to only one, or only five, enemies. A gap closer would be better as it would allow you to immediately follow up with an AoE attack to take all the attention off your allies, not just the attention of a single enemy.

 

Why do Scrappers have taunt in the first place? They are not tanks. They literally can't tank because they can't hold aggro. Confront does not help with this. Nobody takes Confront. Replace it with something better.

That's 5 more mobs that come to you than otherwise would have. When duo'ing with a squishy, that scrapper's single target Taunt can yank the mob that veers off and goes for the support off the support while not having to run it down and leave the other mobs (s)he was fighting alone.

 

In a nut shell: Request denied.

[Uun]

36 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

I'm not arguing for the taunt effect to be removed, rather for it to be incorporated into a gap closer that is shared by all powersets. This would not change anything in terms of power choices or homogenization -- all powersets already have a taunt even though it's useless, why not make that taunt actually worth taking instead of a being waste of screen space?

Outside of Provoke (the pool power) only tanks, brutes and scrappers have taunts. I agree that the ST scrapper taunt is useless and not worth taking. If you think tanker and brute Taunt (the power) is useless, you're using it wrong. 

[Solvernia]

Just now, Arbegla said:

 

Please list other games that also let you take on 20+ mobs and have any chance of survival? Please list how many mobs the "gap closer" actually closes the gap on, and what is the uptime of that power? (i/e how often can you use it, is it only available out of combat, etc) Please list other games where you can travel 40+mph in combat at all times.

Also, you're flat out ignoring that Taunt in City of Heroes already provides a -range debuff, which forces the mobs to come you to, thus being a gap closer in and of itself.

 

I'm not ignoring the -range component of Taunt. In fact, that's another reason why it should be changed. It's not a good thing to make enemies break off a pack to slowly stroll over to you. This makes AoEs less effective, and you still have to slowly move towards them as they slowly move towards you.

 

It is not fun to wait for enemies to come to you, and it is not fun to run towards enemies at a slow speed. This is why gap closers exist, and this is why they should be incorporated into the taunt/confront powers that every single melee powerset already has.

[Rudra]

Also, AS is fine. Leave it alone. It is the only attack my Stalkers have that can 1-shot everything short of a boss. No other attack comes close to matching AS's long-form damage when used from Hide. You can tell me I am building my characters wrong then, but my response to that will be I enjoy playing the way I am.

 

Edit: And some bosses I can finish off with an attack or two after long-form AS. Which I can't do with any other attack as lead.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Rudra

[Solvernia]

Just now, Uun said:

Outside of Provoke (the pool power) only tanks, brutes and scrappers have taunts. I agree that the ST scrapper taunt is useless and not worth taking. If you think tanker and brute Taunt (the power) is useless, you're using it wrong. 

 

Are you really saying you'd rather spend all your time spamming taunt to get enemies to slowly walk over you, instead of instantly getting up in their face to do damage? It's a garbage power. No reason to take it except for RP purposes. Your epic pool targeted AoE does the same exact thing but is overwhelmingly better in every single way.

[Arbegla]

1 minute ago, Solvernia said:

 

I'm not ignoring the -range component of Taunt. In fact, that's another reason why it should be changed. It's not a good thing to make enemies break off a pack to slowly stroll over to you. This makes AoEs less effective, and you still have to slowly move towards them as they slowly move towards you.

 

It is not fun to wait for enemies to come to you, and it is not fun to run towards enemies at a slow speed. This is why gap closers exist, and this is why they should be incorporated into the taunt/confront powers that every single melee powerset already has.

 

I'm pretty sure your definition of 'slowly' and literally any other definition of 'slowly' are not the same thing.

 

And you can move too you know, so while the mob is slowly moving towards you, you're also slowly moving towards them, and thus closing the gap yourself. As we don't yet have missions where mobs just endlessly come to you the entire time, I'm really having difficulty imagining the scenario where your concern is actually reality.

[Solvernia]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Also, AS is fine. Leave it alone. It is the only attack my Stalkers have that can 1-shot everything short of a boss. No other attack comes close to matching AS's long-form damage when used from Hide. You can tell me I am building my characters wrong then, but my response to that will be I enjoy playing the way I am.

 

You would do more damage in the same amount of time critting with your strongest attack out of hide, then using AS in quick form, then using the chance to hide proc you place in AS to hide so you can crit with your strongest attack again. I can kill a boss in a couple seconds with this, whereas long form AS would only take them down to half HP in the same period of time.

 

Long form AS is objectively the weakest attack that Stalkers have. There is no reason to use it over the above rotation, except for RP purposes. Adding a gap closing element to its long form (without otherwise changing or removing the current functionality of the power) would make it actually somewhat useful, and more fun overall.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Solvernia

[Rudra]

Just now, Solvernia said:

 

Are you really saying you'd rather spend all your time spamming taunt to get enemies to slowly walk over you, instead of instantly getting up in their face to do damage? It's a garbage power. No reason to take it except for RP purposes. Your epic pool targeted AoE does the same exact thing but is overwhelmingly better in every single way.

Hmm... my blaster friend has a an enemy that ignored my scrapper/tanker/brute in his/her face. I use taunt. I am now at that target and not at the targets I was already fighting. Great idea! *please note sarcasm*

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Solvernia said:

 

You would do more damage in the same amount of time critting with your strongest attack out of hide, then using AS in quick form, then using the chance to hide proc you place in AS to hide so you can crit with your strongest attack again.

 

Long form AS is objectively the weakest attack that Stalkers have. There is no reason to use it over the above rotation, except for RP purposes. Adding a gap closing element to it (without otherwise changing the functionality of the power) would make it actually somewhat useful.

So you're telling me that I am building my characters wrong and need to change the way I play. No. Edit: Because long-form AS *is* my strongest attack.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Rudra

[Arbegla]

1 minute ago, Solvernia said:

Long form AS is objectively the weakest attack that Stalkers have. There is no reason to use it over the above rotation, except for RP purposes. Adding a gap closing element to it (without otherwise changing the functionality of the power) would make it actually somewhat useful.

 

From a DPA perspective, with is objectively the only thing that matters in high end City of Heroes game play, I'm pretty sure long-form Assassin Strike is the highest damaging attack in the game. But that could just be that pesky math getting in the way of my RP reasons for keeping it around.

Especially when you consider the DPE (Damage per End) of two attacks, vs the DPE of just 1.

[Solvernia]

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

So you're telling me that I am building my characters wrong and need to change the way I play. No.

 

No, I'm telling you that from an objective perspective of how much damage you do in the same amount of time, long form AS does not do as much damage as using your other attacks in the same span would. Feel free to do the math yourself.

 

You are allowed to play any way you wish. Adding a gap closing element to AS would not change the way you play. If you don't like it, you can just jump into a group of enemies as normal and use AS at melee range. Nothing would be different.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Solvernia

[Solvernia]

1 minute ago, Arbegla said:

 

From a DPA perspective, with is objectively the only thing that matters in high end City of Heroes game play, I'm pretty sure long-form Assassin Strike is the highest damaging attack in the game. But that could just be that pesky math getting in the way of my RP reasons for keeping it around.

Especially when you consider the DPE (Damage per End) of two attacks, vs the DPE of just 1.

Quick form AS is more DPA than long form AS on almost every stalker powerset. On my KM/EA, quick form AS has twice the DPA of long form. It would not make sense for long form AS to have better DPA as the long interrupt and animation time is a tradeoff for having slightly higher damage to ambush an enemy with. This might have worked in 2007 but it doesn't work in 2022.

 

DPE is irrelevant. Ageless exists, recovery serum exists, panacea/performance shifter/numina/miracle exists. Empathy exists, Kinetics exists. There are always ways to fix end problems.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Solvernia

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

Quick form AS is more DPA than long form AS on almost every stalker powerset.

 

DPE is irrelevant. Ageless exists, recovery serum exists, panacea/performance shifter/numina/miracle exists. Empathy exists, Kinetics exists. There are always ways to fix end problems.

How is quick-form AS higher Damage per ATTACK than the long-form which does... double? triple? that damage per attack?

 

Edit: If you're going to tell me damage in relation on activation/animation time, that is DPS, not DPA.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Rudra

[Arbegla]

5 minutes ago, Solvernia said:

Quick form AS is more DPA than long form AS on almost every stalker powerset.

 

DPE is irrelevant. Ageless exists, recovery serum exists, panacea/performance shifter/numina/miracle exists. Empathy exists, Kinetics exists. There are always ways to fix end problems.

 

Yes, quick form might be more DPA then long form, though I think they are about the same, due to short-form doing about half the damage in half the time, but long form is more DPA then any other attack. If you kill the mob in 1 hit, vs 2 hits, you're doing more damage per activation, as you only did 1 activation (vs 2 activations)

So wait.. you can use outside powers for DPE arguments, but not for 'gap closing' arguments? Pick a side buddy, you can't have it both ways.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Arbegla

[Arbegla]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

How is quick-form AS higher Damage per ATTACK than the long-form which does... double? triple? that damage per attack?

 

DPA is damage per activation time, not damage per attack. Long-form AS is ~4 seconds, short form is ~2? I'm actually pretty sure their DPA is about the same to be fair, I just can't open mids at work to verify.

 

DPS is damage per second, which considers recharge as a another variable. DPA is the highest damage you can do with a certain power, regardless of recharge being slotted. Its literally the amount of damage per second of animation time that you can't do anything else.

For example, brawl does somewhere around 15 damage at level 50, in about 1.117 seconds. Its DPA is 13.43. However, it recharges in around 2 seconds, so its DPS is 7.5.

I think anyways, again, I don't have mids open, so I can't verify the numbers.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Arbegla