Suggested QoL change - Pool Power Standardization

[Bug You 2]

31 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

There's the rub. None of us can agree. It would be helpful to us all if this game's devs would decide where the balance point should be so that we can all assist them in getting there but even they can't decide where it is.

I’m trying to think how to word this.

 

Then it seems like making it easier to make good build decisions might be a good way to make the balance less skewed. 
 

IO builds aren’t complicated to someone like yourself, but to some they are. Skipping a power they will never use to get the a power like tough or weave is a lot easier. Even if it does improve a top tier build a tiny bit.

 

They are introducing harder content, I think theres room for a little power creep, especially if it moves the more casual players more than it does the elite.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Bug You 2

[Rudra]

They are introducing harder content because of all the power creep that has happened.

 

Edit: If the goal is balance, making characters even more powerful than they already are steps all over that. More powerful characters demands more difficult content or players complain. With the harder content comes more requests to make the characters more powerful. With the more powerful characters comes the demand for more difficult content. Until you finally reach a place where the elite players are soloing Uber-Enhanced Ultra Hamidon and his equally powerful clones while the average player is left well behind.

 

Edit again: Imagine for a moment progressing the game to the point several of these suggestions want. You start playing. You find the starter areas fairly easy. And the game keeps getting easier as you level. Not more interesting, just easier. And then you see the ultra elites solo annihilating the so-called end game final bosses. How interested would you be in continuing to play? There is no reward for your challenge because there is no challenge. Why would that person keep playing? And then that person possibly talks to his/her friends and says "sure, play City of Heroes if you want a grade school level of challenge." This is an extreme take, but it is where I see these suggestions going.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Rudra

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, Bug You 2 said:

They are introducing harder content

 

That isn't being utilized especially by the "more casual players."

 

So why introduce more power creep, not just with this suggestion but with every balance question, when the majority aren't using said power creep for the heightened difficulty content?

 

Edit: And if we're wondering, yes, the devs could datamine this to determine how often the new diff levels are being used when folks choose to run the Aeon SF and even how often it's run at all.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[Bug You 2]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

That isn't being utilized especially by the "more casual players."

 

So why introduce more power creep, not just with this suggestion but with every balance question, when the majority aren't using said power creep for the heightened difficulty content?

I Can only give you my reasons for this suggestion and I already did.

 

Imo

Making powers easier to pick would help the casual player more than it would help the experts and hopefully shorten the gap between Them in whatever content they play. Even if it is power creeping everyone.

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, Bug You 2 said:

Making powers easier to pick would help the casual player more than it would help the experts and hopefully shorten the gap between Them in whatever content they play. Even if it is power creeping everyone.

 

I don't disagree that it would benefit the casual player more but I have to disagree that it'd be an overall benefit to the game and the player population on the whole. Mostly because I seriously doubt the majority of us playing this game now can be considered casuals as was defined in the olden days, the before the snap time.

 

Edit: casual not causal

Edited July 11, 2022 by Bill Z Bubba

[Bug You 2]

1 minute ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I don't disagree that it would benefit the causal player more but I have to disagree that it'd be an overall benefit to the game and the player population on the whole. Mostly because I seriously doubt the majority of us playing this game now can be considered casuals as was defined in the olden days, the before the snap time.

I dunno. Your most likely right that those that have stuck with it this long have a higher % of “none casuals” but if you read the forum theres a lot of people who refuse to make stuff like perma doms or soft cap defenses. But still claim to make good builds. I doubt they would still taking boxing if they didnt have to.

 

Theres people never hitting 50 and IOing out, just constantly rolling alts.

 

And while they still make the builds in game, theres a lot of people asking for builds from others cause they cant make them themselves.

 

I think the “casual” pool might be bigger than you would expect.

[Rudra]

To get back to the OP. Sure, let the power pools be standardized. The travel pools are what are different, so let's change them back to where you need one of the two starter powers to unlock the actual travel power. You'd have lots of players up in arms, but the pools would be standardized again.

 

Edit: I don't really see the travel pools being reverted to match, but there you go. Standardized power pools that avoids any mention of creep and avoids making it easier to min-max your character.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Rudra

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Aracknight said:

The best players will always find a way to get better, and will always find creative ways to separate themselvea from the next tier no matter what the limitations are.  Are we designing for or against the bleeding edge level of play, or for everyone?  I think thats the best way to explain my particular question.

 

Well put. The power creep crowd in this thread is fixated on a general view of balance that ignores variations in player knowledge, interests, and the long and varied history of the development of this game. Bill's big rebuttal here is a presumed increase of dps on a specific character's pylon performance. A very niche (vague) example extrapolated to address the entire breadth of the issue.

 

The objection is that power creep makes things too easy. People who feel this way are a subset of the population. The devs are introducing content for them.

Easing off on the mandates that result in wasted power picks is likely to be a plus for more casual players for a variety of reasons. 

 

[Aracknight]

Full disclosure, once I got my MoAeon badge, I've never run it or been interested in running it again.  Should other task forces arise with similar difficulty, I imagine I'll feel the same about those.  I like Itrials for the incarnate salvage and threads/emps that allow me to build lots of situational options.  I run ITFs for cash to equip my second and third builds with, or other toons.  I tune with incarnate powers, not invention sets.  My build hasn't changed much since live, it's tuned just right for the baseline I want, and I flavor with incarnate powers as I see the need to.

 

And in all the tabletop games I played, I never had to learn the levitate spell before learning the fly spell.  I just had to be the right level.  And I think you guys are acting like you're worried about handing out multiple t-9s when most of us are bitching about t1s and 2s.

 

There is an argument to be had that says I could use my Build2 to have spirit ward, mystic flight, and rune of protection instead of the boxing, tough, and infiltration i have now.  I'd actually have a few more hit points and regen that way too.  All three powers would have value to me, even if I don't use them.  I'm smart enough to see that.  I could even have ninja run and pretend its infiltration with the ninja run stance.

 

But it isn't the same, and I'd rather have builds where the key differences are the epic power pools if I want to zap or fireball or something.

 

I had my time in the powergamer sun.  I was honest when i said, in the infancy of this thread, that I saw both sides.  

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

3 minutes ago, Bug You 2 said:

I dunno. Your most likely right that those that have stuck with it this long have a higher % of “none casuals” but if you read the forum theres a lot of people who refuse to make stuff like perma doms or soft cap defenses. But still claim to make good builds. I doubt they would still taking boxing if they didnt have to.

 

Theres people never hitting 50 and IOing out, just constantly rolling alts.

 

And while they still make the builds in game, theres a lot of people asking for builds from others cause they cant make them themselves.

 

I think the “casual” pool might be bigger than you would expect.

 

I ran a swipe-only/invul scrapper from 1 to 50 without AE. We can all play this game as we see fit. We can all refuse to follow common knowledge.

 

Those asking for builds *could* make the builds themselves. They *could* read about builds and test them on their own and come up with their own plans and read and understand everything about this game's mechanics. There is NO system in place blocking knowledge and advancement in this game to anyone. To put it another way, there's nothing I can do in this game that you can't do and more. And I've seen the more countless times over and over because I *choose* to limit my builds in my way.

 

So, no... I'm not swayed that there's some mass of players that actually need this change or even needed movement powers at level 4. That was a poorly thought out change and should be reverted. I'm with Rudra... standardize the pools, yes, all of them, and make T3-T4 powers available at 14.

[Bill Z Bubba]

5 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Bill's big rebuttal here is a presumed increase of dps on a specific character's pylon performance. A very niche (vague) example extrapolated to address the entire breadth of the issue.

 

Of my 60+ characters, every single one of them would be able to increase DPS if they didn't have to choose existing prereqs for pool powers. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

 

Quit your damn lying.

[Aracknight]

Could doesn't mean will.

 

When I was a kid, I was able to do things other kids of my age couldn't.  Like whistle.  And I didn't understand why the stupid kids around me couldn't whistle.  When Sammy beat me up for asking that exact question, I began to understand that maybe everyone was different.

 

Not everyone is playing or building the same way you are.  Not everyone has the same goals or thought process as you do.

 

I spent a lot of time in game design trying to out-think myself too.  So I know how it feels to sit there thinking "Don't these idiots know what I could do if they did this?"

 

But not everyone chases the bleeding edge.  On that, I think we can agree, and perhaps proceed from there.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Aracknight

[battlewraith]

58 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

Quit your damn lying.

 

FFS, just stop. You're smarter than that. Everyone one of my characters could be doing more damage right now if I wanted to skip on something else that I think is important--like buffing teammates or something. 

 

You want nerfs. Overall. And you don't care what other people think is fun or what motivates them to play--you've made that clear in this thread. The devs would be foolish at this stage of the game to follow your lead. They should be offering things to different types of players and those things don't have to follow this hardline ethic you got going which isn't the case and wouldn't add anything to the experience if you had your way.

[Bug You 2]

23 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

I ran a swipe-only/invul scrapper from 1 to 50 without AE. We can all play this game as we see fit. We can all refuse to follow common knowledge.

 

Those asking for builds *could* make the builds themselves. They *could* read about builds and test them on their own and come up with their own plans and read and understand everything about this game's mechanics. There is NO system in place blocking knowledge and advancement in this game to anyone. To put it another way, there's nothing I can do in this game that you can't do and more. And I've seen the more countless times over and over because I *choose* to limit my builds in my way.

 

So, no... I'm not swayed that there's some mass of players that actually need this change or even needed movement powers at level 4. That was a poorly thought out change and should be reverted. I'm with Rudra... standardize the pools, yes, all of them, and make T3-T4 powers available at 14.

Need? No, would benefit from I believe so.

 

Yes the people asking for builds might be able to do all that and learn it and that would indeed make them not casual. But the fact they havent or cant (Because some honestly cant, even if they tried) does put them in the casual pool imo.

 

Also my examples was just from the forum (I havent pugged since a years break) Imo the people reading and posting seem much less likely to be casual about the game.

 

I get you and others are adamant opponents of any power creep, I was just trying to explain how tough with a cost of boxing, is more valuable for the guy more likely to slot 4 kinetic combats in it to become softcapped to SL. Than the guy who just took it because he really wanted a resist power.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Bug You 2

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

FFS, just stop. You're smarter than that. Everyone one of my characters could be doing more damage right now if I wanted to skip on something else that I think is important--like buffing teammates or something. 

 

You want nerfs. Overall. And you don't care what other people think is fun or what motivates them to play--you've made that clear in this thread. The devs would be foolish at this stage of the game to follow your lead. They should be offering things to different types of players and those things don't have to follow this hardline ethic you got going which isn't the case and wouldn't add anything to the experience if you had your way.

 

Wrong again and you're not the first person today to accuse me of such. I want buffs as much as I want nerfs. Regen should be buffed. Broadsword and Battleaxe should be buffed. Devices should be buffed. Kheldians should be buffed.

 

Again, quit with your lying, liar.

[Bill Z Bubba]

10 minutes ago, Aracknight said:

Could doesn't mean will.

 

When I was a kid, I was able to do things other kids of my age couldn't.  Like whistle.  And I didn't understand why the stupid kids around me couldn't whistle.  When Sammy beat me up for asking that exact question, I began to understand that maybe everyone was different.

 

Not everyone is playing or building the same way you are.  Not everyone has the same goals or thought process as you do.

 

I spent a lot of time in game design trying to out-think myself too.  So I know how it feels to sit there thinking "Don't these idiots know what I could do if they did this?"

 

But not everyone chases the bleeding edge.  On that, I think we can agree, and perhaps proceed from there.

 

I got my ass kicked by a platoon mate for being an asshole and he bought me a case of beer for not ratting him out. I don't understand how that's relevant here.

 

I don't want everyone to play or build as I do. They'd end up with some shitty builds and inefficient play-styles if they do as per what I see going down on these forums.

 

I can absolutely agree that not everyone is seeking out the bleeding edge because I'm no longer in that group. If I was, I'd have multiple builds, procmonster builds, builds made specifically for exemplaring, etc, etc. I get it. I don't get making a ridiculously easy game that's losing population left and right easier as the goal of getting more players when we've tried that and it's failed.

[Rudra]

26 minutes ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 I'm with Rudra... standardize the pools, yes, all of them, and make T3-T4 powers available at 14.

Mmmmmmm... slight disagreement. I'm just saying to put the power pick requirements back. I'm fine with hovering across zones for 2 levels. Hovering across zones for 10 levels rather sucks. 😛

[Bill Z Bubba]

Just now, Rudra said:

Mmmmmmm... slight disagreement. I'm just saying to put the power pick requirements back. I'm fine with hovering across zones for 2 levels. Hovering across zones for 10 levels rather sucks. 😛

 

Correction noted. You're WRONG! 🙂 So you want hover at 4 and fly at 6 as an example? And I want hover at 4 and fly at 14. That's only an 8 level difference!

[Bug You 2]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Mmmmmmm... slight disagreement. I'm just saying to put the power pick requirements back. I'm fine with hovering across zones for 2 levels. Hovering across zones for 10 levels rather sucks. 😛

Then buy a jetpack like the people who couldnt fit fly in cause they had to take boxing 😋

[Aracknight]

/taps out.

 

 

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, Bug You 2 said:

Then buy a jetpack like the people who couldnt fit fly in cause they had to take boxing 😋

I could do that too! 😄

 

Edit: Though I think that is the difference. I think back on Live, the devs removed the level requirement for the travel powers (after 4th level when pools became unlocked), but you still had to have a prior power pick. And the private server took away the power pick. If I'm remembering correctly at least.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Rudra

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

 

Wrong again and you're not the first person today to accuse me of such. I want buffs as much as I want nerfs. Regen should be buffed. Broadsword and Battleaxe should be buffed. Devices should be buffed. Kheldians should be buffed.

 

Again, quit with your lying, liar.

Ok so it's power creep when it's something you don't want. Gotcha.

Quit being a baby about it. You baby. lol.

 

 

[Bill Z Bubba]

8 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Ok so it's power creep when it's something you don't want. Gotcha.

Quit being a baby about it. You baby. lol.

 

More lying. Is that all you're capable of?

[Rudra]

*looks at all threads has seen comment on* *raises hand and opens mouth* *clamps mouth shut*

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

More lying. Is that all you're capable of?

Dude, do you know what lying actually means? I think your argument is bad and self-serving. I explained why. And I'm not the only one in this thread that disagrees with you.

It all boils down to opinion and you're not handling it well for some reason. The actually lying is here:

 

1 hour ago, Bill Z Bubba said:

We can all play this game as we see fit. We can all refuse to follow common knowledge.

 

If you actually took that to heart, you wouldn't be agitating for nerfs and complaining about changes that other people want. This change would only affect you if you decided to change your build. But ya think you know better and you gotta have people do it your way.