Can we get another KB -> KD IO in a set that *doesn't* enhance Knockback, please?

[Biff Pow]

Maybe the "Chance for Knockdown " IOs (Kinetic Combat, Avalanche, Ragnarok) could be changed to Chance for Knockdown/KB to KD like Overwhelming Force.

[Stormwalker]

19 minutes ago, Supertanker said:

Maybe the "Chance for Knockdown " IOs (Kinetic Combat, Avalanche, Ragnarok) could be changed to Chance for Knockdown/KB to KD like Overwhelming Force.

 

That would certainly help, and having a high-performance set like Ragnarok with a KB to KD would certainly remove a lot of cause for complaint about slotting KB to KD.

 

Of course, Ragnarok is also unique, but Kinetic Combat isn't.  And off the top of my head, I can't think of any set that really needs more than 3 KB -> KD's (Energy Blast might need 3, for an energy blaster who doesn't use Hover)

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Supertanker said:

Maybe the "Chance for Knockdown " IOs (Kinetic Combat, Avalanche, Ragnarok) could be changed to Chance for Knockdown/KB to KD like Overwhelming Force.

Then they would need to be unique sets to make up for the improvement. Or players would likely not bother with Overwhelming Force any more.

 

Edit: Well... Ragnarok is already unique... and that would push it up another tier of power....

Edited July 18, 2022 by Rudra

[Troo]

 

"The ‘Down’ vector is especially interesting, because it allows for the creation of powers that cause Knockdown but have a high magnitude and can punch through KB protection. This is something that was not possible before, since a high magnitude would normally mean a long knockback distance."

"After the knock vector is calculated, that setting can be used to rotate the vector along an axis and point almost any direction you can think of"

"The magnitude expression here is to simulate a dense gravitational source and translates to ((45-dist)/19)^3. In other words, the pull is very strong near the event horizon and quickly falls off to very weak for targets further away."

 

[Rudra]

So... increasing the knockback value for a knockdown attack increases the likelihood of actually knocking the target down? So all the knockback enhancements in Sudden Acceleration aren't wasted? Or what? I'm not quite understanding the post. Sorry.

[Stormwalker]

12 minutes ago, Rudra said:

So... increasing the knockback value for a knockdown attack increases the likelihood of actually knocking the target down? So all the knockback enhancements in Sudden Acceleration aren't wasted? Or what? I'm not quite understanding the post. Sorry.

 

Not exactly.  What he's saying is it increases the magnitude of the knockdown, which is to say it will punch through higher levels of KB protection - it will knock down targets it otherwise would not.  Which isn't completely worthless, but is not really all that useful in a KD case.  In a KB case, increasing knockback magnitude pushes the enemy farther away, which effectively increases the mitigation value of the knockback.  In a KD case, the only value is that it will knock down a boss that would have resisted it otherwise.  In a power like Power Push, where you have a very high KB chance, this might be valuable.  In a damage power where your KB chance is not that high to begin with, not so much.

 

If it actually increased KB chance, or if it casued targets to stay down longer, then we would have something truly useful.

 

Actually, what increased Knockdown Magnitude really OUGHT do do is bounce enemies off the ground and back into the air.  But it doesn't.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Stormwalker

[Rudra]

But if increasing the magnitude of knockback on a knockdown power makes it possible to knock down a target that would otherwise have not been knocked down.... Yeah, I need to go hide my Sudden Acceleration thread. It makes a lot less sense to ask for that change now.

 

Edit: If increasing the knockback magnitude on a knockdown attack makes it more likely I can bounce that boss/EB/AV/GM? Then all those knockback buffs in Sudden Acceleration become a lot more desirable to me. If they have to get up, they aren't ripping my face off.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Rudra

[Stormwalker]

12 minutes ago, Rudra said:

But if increasing the magnitude of knockback on a knockdown power makes it possible to knock down a target that would otherwise have not been knocked down.... Yeah, I need to go hide my Sudden Acceleration thread. It makes a lot less sense to ask for that change now.

 

Well, sort of.  I seem to recall (though it's been a very long time, so I can't promise I'm remembering it correctly) that repeated applications of KB in rapid succession stack until you overome the target's KB protection - meaning, you're going to knock the target down eventually anyway.  With increased Knockback magnitude, that will happen sooner.

 

That said, Troo's link is news to me.  Originally, KD was simply Mag  < 1 KB.  I was under the impression that was still the case, but from his link apparently that got changed at some point along the way to KD being an actual different kind of KB.

 

That said, even with that change, Knockback enhancement still offers substantially less benefit in a KD case than a KB case, because the additional mitigation value of pushing the enemy further away from your melee range (and the time that passes before they get back up being longer due to longer air time with the increased KB distance) is lost.  So, I would consider KB enhancement in a power that does KD (whether naturally or by KD -> KB) to be an extremely poor investment, and thus I still think the set is poorly designed.

 

If increasing KD magnitude caused the enemy to get up more slowly due to having hit the ground harder, then there would be considerably more value in it, and at that point it might even be a worthy investment.

 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Stormwalker
minor correction

[Rudra]

Sure. Except if all my KB attacks have sufficient magnitude to knock that boss/EB/AV/GM down each? Then all my attacks will keep that boss/EB/AV/GM sitting on the ground and well away from my face.

 

Edit: Damage mitigation by virtue of constant application of the prone condition.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Rudra

[Stormwalker]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Sure. Except if all my KB attacks have sufficient magnitude to knock that boss/EB/AV/GM down each? Then all my attacks will keep that boss/EB/AV/GM sitting on the ground and well away from my face.

 

Edit: Damage mitigation by virtue of constant application of the prone condition.

 

If you slot knockback in all your attacks, which is what it would take to make that practical, you have nuked the Hell out of your DPS.

 

Also, let's remember which powers it is that players are pressured to slot KB -> KD in.  Mostly, it's AoE powers, which don't have rapid cycle times.

 

If I'm going through my damage rotation on an enemy, I'm cycling single-target attacks on him that I'm not slotting for KB -> KD because there's no practical reason to do so.

 

Sudden Acceleration is poorly matched to the attacks which need the KB -> KD IO to begin with.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Stormwalker

[Rudra]

If my target can't hurt me, I don't need as much DPS. As I've said on multiple occasions. I'm fine with playing sub-optimal. As long as I have fun and my character rocks. And if the enemies can't even stand to fight? Then odds are, my character rocks and I am having a blast. (It's what made my Bane Spider so fun. Wolf Spider gun blasts until anything strong and fast enough can get in close. Then proceed to bounce the target in place like a manic basketball player dribbling, except with a mace. And try not to laugh so hard I stop being able to see the screen.)

 

Edit: So basically, I agree to disagree.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Rudra

[Stormwalker]

11 minutes ago, Rudra said:

If my target can't hurt me, I don't need as much DPS. As I've said on multiple occasions. I'm fine with playing sub-optimal. As long as I have fun and my character rocks. And if the enemies can't even stand to fight? Then odds are, my character rocks and I am having a blast. (It's what made my Bane Spider so fun. Wolf Spider gun blasts until anything strong and fast enough can get in close. Then proceed to bounce the target in place like a manic basketball player dribbling, except with a mace. And try not to laugh so hard I stop being able to see the screen.)

 

Oh, I can see how if someone just WANTS to knock a boss around, they might possibly want to slot it.  I am, after all, someone who has extolled the virtues of Claws by boasting of its ability to dribble a Zeus-class Titan like a basketball.  I understand the value of repeated knockback.  But on my Claw scrapper I'm also not giving up any damage to do that, and it's not something I would choose to do if I had to give up a large amount of damage to do it.

 

My problem with Sudden Acceleration is it's the only option (other than the Unique Overwhelming Force) for players who are pressured into slotting KB -> KD by the need to be good teammates, or just by pressure from other players in general.  And for those players, who are slotting KB -> KD either to help their teams, or to appease people and avoid conflict, Sudden Acceleration is very ill-suited to the task.  Thus, my request for another actual damage set with a KB -> KD in it, which would be much more suited to those players' needs than Sudden Acceleration is.

 

Which is to say, if it weren't for the fact that there are people out there who will give you crap just for playing a character with KB, I wouldn't have an issue with Sudden Acceleration at all, because the only people who were slotting it would be slotting it because they want to, not because they feel like they must.

 

But again, this is not nearly as huge an issue to me as it was, now that I know Explosive Blast's knockback is manageable now.  Because I no longer feel like I have to slot it.  I can use my one Overwhelming Force in Nova and go on my merry way.  But I still feel for other players who feel like they do have to slot it, and I want them to have a better option.

 

I guess what I'm saying is I feel like it would be hypocritical of me to give up the fight just because it's no longer personally an issue for me when I know it's still an issue for some other people.  If I was willing to argue on my own behalf, I should be willing to argue on theirs, too.

Edited July 19, 2022 by Stormwalker

[Rudra]

On a team, you have 1-7 teammates also doing damage. So you're DPS is a lot less critical. Sorry, but your argument is losing me. I get you want a damage focused set that has a KB-KD convertor like Overwhelming Force. And I am not saying to not ask for that. Just saying that with this new awareness, Sudden Acceleration is actually a great set. It helps a KB player join even a KB-hating team, makes for great laughs bouncing the Big Bad with the increased chance of each and every attack knocking him/her down, and does not cause a major loss of DPS. (In my book.)

 

That it is still not for you and others like you? Fine. It is still not for you and other players like you. Ask for the damage-focused KD set. I'm going to have a blast bouncing Big Bads, even when on a team, because I will now have the ability to ensure I can bounce them.

[Stormwalker]

18 minutes ago, Rudra said:

On a team, you have 1-7 teammates also doing damage. So you're DPS is a lot less critical. Sorry, but your argument is losing me. I get you want a damage focused set that has a KB-KD convertor like Overwhelming Force. And I am not saying to not ask for that. Just saying that with this new awareness, Sudden Acceleration is actually a great set. It helps a KB player join even a KB-hating team, makes for great laughs bouncing the Big Bad with the increased chance of each and every attack knocking him/her down, and does not cause a major loss of DPS. (In my book.)

 

That it is still not for you and others like you? Fine. It is still not for you and other players like you. Ask for the damage-focused KD set. I'm going to have a blast bouncing Big Bads, even when on a team, because I will now have the ability to ensure I can bounce them.

 

That's perfectly fine.  The whole reason I wanted a new set rather than to modify Sudden Acceleration to begin with was that I wanted to increase the number of available options rather than take away an option that previously existed (even if I didn't think it was a terribly good option, I always try to allow for the fact that someone else out there might be fond of it, and might be put out by having it changed) in favor of a new one.  Therefore, there's no reason our differing points of view can't coexist.

 

I did already modify my initial post (yesterday, in fact) to state at the beginning that this is a request that is a "this would be nice to have" and not a "this is desperately needed" type of request, after all.  I think at least that most of us can agree that more options are "nice to have", whether we think they're desperately needed or not.

 

(Also, I do recognize that it's not so much a problem in a team.  But for players like me who don't have the inf to have separate builds for solo and for team, our build we team with has to also be able to solo effectively, and that's where it becomes an issue)

Edited July 19, 2022 by Stormwalker
man, my typing sucks tonight

[JasperStone]

Something already exists  ...sorta.

 

I had to check, because my old man brain was unsure.

 

Below is my Psionic Mastery Pool from my Fire/Kin

 

Psionic Tornado does Knockback. As you can see, I am using Overwhelming Force.

...

but it also has a 50% chance for 1.40 Knockup.

 

I remember crafting a recipe that would permanently change an aspect of my power from KB>KU

When I slotted it ... it disappeared.

 

This is a great solution.

 

It is about 50% of the time.

 

I can tell because mobs are flung so high in the air people respond in chat with "WTH was that!!!!"