Can we get another KB -> KD IO in a set that *doesn't* enhance Knockback, please?

[Stormwalker]

((MAJOR EDIT:  Before you read the rest of this post, a little clarification on something: when I originally wrote this post, I was operating under my memory of Explosive Blast back in Live scattering enemies outward from the center of the blast, rather thann knocking them back from the Blaster.  Either my memory is really off (not impossible), or the power got fixed at some point along the way, but either way, it's much, much better now.  As such, this suggestion now falls in the realm of "it would be nice to have this" rather than "we really need this".  I still think the Sudden Acceleration set's design is kind of self-defeating and illogical, but now that I know I don't have to slot it (because I can just slot Overwhelming Force in Nova and not slot a KB -> KD in Explosive blast), it doesn't feel nearly so punishing as it did.))

 

So, in the whole discussion about the KB -> KD toggle (which is an idea I am opposed to, incidentally), @Rudra raised the point that slotting the KB -> KD IO is only a set bonus tax if you don't slot the rest of the set.  Unfortunately, this raises a problem of its own.  There are two KB -> KD IO's in the game, currently, and one of them is in a completely useless EDIT to remove hyperbole:  generally poor set.

 

• Overwhelming Force: Chance for Knockdown/Knockback to Knockdown, which is in a Universal Damage set.  This one is great, but is unfortunately Unique.
• Sudden Acceleration: Knockback to Knockdown, which is in a Knockback set, and every other enhancement in the set enhances Knockback.  This is a terrible set design, frankly, because if you slot the KB -> KD IO, you render almost half the enhancement value provided by the set useless.
  • EDIT: Based on initial response, I have to concede that the set itself has uses up to 5 pieces (i.e. if you don't slot the KB -> KD, it's perfectly functional as a Knockback set).  I still maintain that having a set where half of its enhancement bonuses are nullified if you slot the KB -> KD proc is not great design).

 

Given that some sets (Energy Blast) have at least two powers that require KB -> KD to be effectively used in a team environment (and let's be honest, Explosive Blast requires KB -> KD to be useful even solo, because it's a badly-designed power out of the box  EDIT: Apparently it got fixed at some point and is no longer terrible.  Learning this made me happy.), can we get another KB -> KD Io that isn't in a useless poorly-designed set?  This would go along way to helping those of us who choose Energy Blast feel like we're not being punished for playing the set.

 

Essentially, what I'm asking for is a KB -> KD IO, either in a new Universal Damage set or in a Knockback set (so it can be slotted in any power with Knockback) that doesn't actually have any Knockback enhancement in the set, which is to say, it has an enhancement setup akin to a Damage set.  Ideally, this IO would not be Unique, though in my own personal case it would be fine if it was, since I only slot KB -> KD in Explosive Blast and Nova anyway... but I assume that some people would like to slot more than two KB -> KD IO's and would like to not have to slot the useless poorly-thought-out Sudden Acceleration set in order to get set bonuses.

 

Anyway, that's my suggestion.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Stormwalker

[Rudra]

I could get behind a non-unique damage set with a KB-KD converter. Sure.

[Troo]

No.

 

I thought about saying yes when reading the title.. but then:

• "completely useless set"
• "This is a terrible set design, frankly, because if you slot the KB -> KD IO, you render almost half the enhancement value provided by the set useless."
• "Explosive Blast requires KB -> KD to be useful even solo, because it's a badly-designed power out of the box"

Just bad form. No worries, I fixed for you.

 

33 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

Anyway, that's my suggestion opinion.

 

Regardless, we can come up with a better solution. (one might be in the works) (but who knows, you will likely feel it to be a badly-designed, completely useless feature)

[Rudra]

See my comments on the thread originating this thread for my response to the uselessness of Sudden Acceleration.

 

I disagree with the author's opinion on  Sudden Acceleration. I disagree with everyone that thinks Sudden Acceleration is an enhancement tax. A new set that gives a KB-KD proc may be helpful. And if it were a damage set like Overwhelming Force, then maybe the naysayers for KB will be satisfied. However, since Overwhelming Force is a unique set, the new damage set would have to give lower bonuses or Overwhelming Force will suddenly be ignored.

[Andreah]

What of we tuned down the set bonuses on OF a bit and made it, the whole set, non-unique?

 

Mainly the six set knockback protection reduced to 2 pts, or even 1 pt.

 

Hrrm, I could even be convince it would be fine just entirely as-is with non-unique.

[Andreah]

Sudden Acceleration is a bit of a self-defeating set as it stands. But I could see it being five slotted a lot.

 

Or, we could create a new Hami-O or D-Sync that did KB->KD conversion. And maybe had a little recharge or accuracy or something else no one would object to. Then delete the KB->KD from Sudden Accel and make it a five piece set.

[Stormwalker]

24 minutes ago, Rudra said:

See my comments on the thread originating this thread for my response to the uselessness of Sudden Acceleration.

 

I disagree with the author's opinion on  Sudden Acceleration. I disagree with everyone that thinks Sudden Acceleration is an enhancement tax. A new set that gives a KB-KD proc may be helpful. And if it were a damage set like Overwhelming Force, then maybe the naysayers for KB will be satisfied. However, since Overwhelming Force is a unique set, the new damage set would have to give lower bonuses or Overwhelming Force will suddenly be ignored.

 

See MY comments on your comments.

 

Sudden Acceleration is not a useful set.  To slot Sudden Acceleration instead of a Damage set, you give up:

• 37.1% damage enhancement
• 26.5% accuracy enhancement
• 26.5% endurance reduction
• 5.3% recharge reduction

How is this a viable alternative to slotting a damage set?  Slotting 5 pieces of a damage set and one piece of Sudden Acceleration is clearly superior, and that IS an enhancement tax.

 

Also, @Troo, I fail to see how you can argue that Explosive Blast is not a badly-designed power.  Scattering your enemies the way Explosive Blast does out of the box is not EVER useful.  And if you ever use Explosive Blast without KB -> KD slotted in a team, I guarantee your team will howl.  I've seen it happen, several times (not on my energy blaster, mind, because before KB -> KD existed I didn't take Explosive Blast for that very reason, but I've seen it with energy blasters I've teamed with!)

 

Energy Torrent is useful because you can actually aim your KB.  You can even transform it to KD by hovering over your target.  It's a good power, there are viable uses for it in its default form.  I don't slot KB -> KD in it because the power is fine without it.  Explosive Blast doesn't give you any ways to avoid scattering your enemies, and that makes it a badly-designed power.

 

(And if it wasn't clear by now, the other power you have to slot KB -> KD in if you don't want your team to murder you is Nova).

Edited July 17, 2022 by Stormwalker

[Stormwalker]

9 minutes ago, Andreah said:

Sudden Acceleration is a bit of a self-defeating set as it stands. But I could see it being five slotted a lot.

 

 

This is exactly what I'm saying.  Sure, if you don't slot the KB -> KD it's fine as a Knockback Set,   Not that I've ever had any use for a Knockback set, but I know that some people do use them and that's fine.  The problem is that the set and the KB -> KD are at odds with each other, which means the set might as well not have a 6-piece bonus because 6-slotting it is useless.

 

I should think that part of my meaning was pretty apparent, though I guess from @Troo's snarky-as-Hell response it wasn't (note to @Troo; I didn't downvote you for what you said, I downvoted you for saying it in the most obnoxious, aggressive manner you possibly could).

 

And @Andreah, your other suggestions would work just fine for me, too.  Anything that makes slotting the KB -> KD feel less like a band-aid slapped over bad design, which is something I find intensely frustrating.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Stormwalker

[Stormwalker]

@Troo

 

Let me put this in a different way.

 

Right now, if an energy blaster doesn't slot KB -> KD in their powers (at minimum, Explosive Blast and Nova), they're likely to get kicked from a lot of teams.  Hell, I've seen energy blasters get kicked from teams JUST FOR BEING ENERGY BLASTERS, because a lot of players are jerks.  So the energy blaster is walking a fine line from the start, just by existing.

 

Why are we punishing them for doing what they have to do to be a good teammate by forcing them to slot an enhancement from a set that they absolutely aren't going to slot any other pieces of (and therefore can't get set bonuses from)?

 

Note that I love the Overwhelming Force set.  I slot it happily.  It's a good, useful set.  My problem is not with having to slot KB -> KD (though, as I noted, in the case of Explosive Blast this still feels very much like a band-aid slapped over a badly-designed power).  I don't mind slotting the Overwhelming Force KB -> KD because the rest of the set is actually beneficial.  Note that this is the set I slot in Explosive Blast, and I 6-slot it.  I do this because WITH KB -> KD, Explosive Blast becomes a very useful part of my arsenal, a badly needed AoE in a set that has very little AoE for a blaster.

 

But having to slot the Sudden Acceleration KD -> KB in Nova, which, incidentally, is the ONE occasion when scattering your enemies actually CAN be useful when soloing (because it gives you a bit of breathing room after the crash) so that teams don't hate me feels like being punished for trying to be a good teammate (because if I was only soloing, I wouldn't slot it!)

 

Frankly, just joining teams as an energy blaster and dealing with the hostility I sometimes get before I even get a chance to prove that I know how to play is the reason I don't play my energy blaster (who is absolutely my favorite character concept out of all of my characters - in fact, the character in my avatar image is my energy blaster) more than I do.  And the only thing that I can do to try to mitigate that hostility punishes me by reducing my effectiveness.  This is not good design.

 

Sure, you can say that this is a problem of "players being assholes" for treating energy blasters this way, rather than a problem of design,  I'll even acknowledge, outside of the poor design of Explosive Blast, that this is true.   But you can't stop players from being assholes, and you can change the design to make life a little easier for those who are trying to live with it!

 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Stormwalker

[Vanden]

39 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

before KB -> KD existed I didn't take Explosive Blast for that very reason, but I've seen it with energy blasters I've teamed with!

 

You know, this makes sense, because I have to say, Explosive Blast does knockback away from the caster for every target, it doesn't send them in random directions. Everything that works for Energy Torrent works for Explosive Blast.

[BazookaTwo]

13 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

Frankly, just joining teams as an energy blaster and dealing with the hostility I sometimes get before I even get a chance to prove that I know how to play is the reason I don't play my energy blaster (who is absolutely my favorite character concept out of all of my characters) more than I do.  And the only thing that I can do to try to mitigate that hostility punishes me by reducing my effectiveness.  This is not good design.

Seems anecdotal to me, as I main an energy/sonic, only put kb-kd in bonfire, and seem to have a good time. 

[Stormwalker]

20 minutes ago, BazookaTwo said:

Seems anecdotal to me, as I main an energy/sonic, only put kb-kd in bonfire, and seem to have a good time. 

 

Maybe I've just had bad luck with teaming with jerks, but I have heard this from other energy blasters as well, that they get hostility just for being an energy blaster when they join teams.  Mind you, this is largely based on my experience back on Live - I haven't done much teaming on HC because of the sound stacking problem causing me to get headaches from playing in teams, but I've been looking forward to being able to team again once Page 4 goes live.  So maybe I'll find that HC is better about this than Live was.  I hope so.

 

21 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

You know, this makes sense, because I have to say, Explosive Blast does knockback away from the caster for every target, it doesn't send them in random directions. Everything that works for Energy Torrent works for Explosive Blast.

 

I had Explosive Blast briefly on Live (pretty early in my time on live), and my memory of that experience was that I was not able to aim/control its Knockback the way I could Torrent, and had to do a Terra Volta trial just to respec out of it.  Granted, that was a long time ago, so maybe it got changed at some point and I didn't know about it?  On HC I slotted the KB -> KD the instant I took Explosive Blast, so I haven't actually used it on HC without the KB -> KD slotted.

 

If it's true that you can control it's KB now, then I have no issue with it.  Though I'll probably still slot KB -> KD in it just so that I can do Explosive Blast -> Torrent as an AoE chain, because otherwise Energy doesn't have a viable AoE chain.  But at least in that case I wouldn't feel like I was forced to slot it.

 

EDIT: In fact, now I'm going to have to go buy an Unslotter and test this.  Because if they changed that, I'll be really happy to know it (even if I do put the KB -> KD right back into it after), just because that would make it a much better power than the version I remember.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Stormwalker

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, Andreah said:

What of we tuned down the set bonuses on OF a bit and made it, the whole set, non-unique?

 

Mainly the six set knockback protection reduced to 2 pts, or even 1 pt.

 

Hrrm, I could even be convince it would be fine just entirely as-is with non-unique.

 

6 slots for 3 points of -KB is already a bad investment when that bonus can be obtained with a much, much lower slot cost.  It doesn't need to be worse.

[Vanden]

10 minutes ago, Luminara said:

6 slots for 3 points of -KB is already a bad investment when that bonus can be obtained with a much, much lower slot cost.  It doesn't need to be worse.

 

OF gives 4 pts of KB protection, and that comes with other set bonuses, and enhancement to the power you're slotting it in rather than being just a slot tax.

[Andreah]

13 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

OF gives 4 pts of KB protection, and that comes with other set bonuses, and enhancement to the power you're slotting it in rather than being just a slot tax.

A player would have to think about the other things they would have slotted in those powers, and other switching to multiple OF would still make a well balanced and capable build.  It also grants some ranged defense, and I can see that being sought after.

[Stormwalker]

14 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

OF gives 4 pts of KB protection, and that comes with other set bonuses, and enhancement to the power you're slotting it in rather than being just a slot tax.

 

Yep, this is what makes OF good.  The KB protection by itself isn't great, but some of its other set bonuses (notably, 3% damage buff and E/N/Ranged defense) are pretty nice.

[Stormwalker]

@Vanden - You're right.  It does always knock the target away from the blaster now.  That's so much better.  Thank you for pointing this out, because I can only guess this change went in during one of the periodic hiatuses (is that a word?  What is the plural of "hiatus", anyway)? that I took from Live so as not to burn out.  After blowing up some Hellions in Perez Park, I can see that the power is actually useful now without the KB -> KD in it (though I imagine teams would still be happier with me if I continued to slot it, given the size of the area it hits and therefore the number of enemies being knocked back).  

 

@Troo - Ok, so I was wrong to call the power useless, but that was because I didn't know that at some point along the way it got fixed.  Once upon a time, the power was useless out of the box, but now it isn't, and that's a good thing.  I still maintain that Sudden Acceleration is not a good set because its enhancement bonuses clash with its KB -> KD IO, and that it'd be more appropriate to have the KB -> KD in a set that doesn't enhance KB, though.  That  said, the fact that slotting KB -> KD in Explosive Blast is more of a tactical decision, and not one that is forced on me by bad power design, definitely makes me feel less frustrated about it.

[Rudra]

Here's a thought I posted on the concurrent other KB-KD thread. What if Sudden Acceleration was modified to replace some of its KB with damage or endurance reduction? Would that help people? Would it make the set more appealing to those claiming it is a tax and have them use more than just the proc?

 

Edit:

What is the plural of "hiatus", anyway? Hiatuses or hiatus.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Rudra

[Luminara]

13 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 

OF gives 4 pts of KB protection, and that comes with other set bonuses, and enhancement to the power you're slotting it in rather than being just a slot tax.

 

3 points, 4 points, it wouldn't be worth it at 6 points.  Three sets offer -KB for a single slot, which doesn't represent a slot investment if one only uses the default slot.  Two sets have it in the 3-slot position, one set at 4 slots and another set with it at 5 slots.  Having to spend 5 slots for that little -KB isn't worthwhile.

 

And the other set bonuses are no better than what can be obtained elsewhere.  You can spend fewer slots using four Devastations, two Basilisk's Gaze and a single -KB IO (three default slots in three different powers, four added slots), enhance three powers instead of one, gain more +HP and still have one slot to use elsewhere.  Four Devastations, three Thunderstrikes and a -KB IO use that extra slot and give you 2% Recovery in addition to everything else.

 

Without the Superior upgrade path, the set is under-tuned, to the point of hornswoggling players into wasting slots.  It should be renamed Underwhelming Force.

[Stormwalker]

10 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Here's a thought I posted on the concurrent other KB-KD thread. What if Sudden Acceleration was modified to replace some of its KB with damage or endurance reduction? Would that help people? Would it make the set more appealing to those claiming it is a tax and have them use more than just the proc?

 

Edit:

What is the plural of "hiatus", anyway? Hiatuses or hiatus.

 

It would certainly help.  I still question the design of a set that has Knockback enhancement and then turns KB into KD, just because the set works against itself inhrently.  It kind of defies logic.

 

12 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

3 points, 4 points, it wouldn't be worth it at 6 points.  Three sets offer -KB for a single slot, which doesn't represent a slot investment if one only uses the default slot.  Two sets have it in the 3-slot position, one set at 4 slots and another set with it at 5 slots.  Having to spend 5 slots for that little -KB isn't worthwhile.

 

And the other set bonuses are no better than what can be obtained elsewhere.  You can spend fewer slots using four Devastations, two Basilisk's Gaze and a single -KB IO (three default slots in three different powers, four added slots), enhance three powers instead of one, gain more +HP and still have one slot to use elsewhere.  Four Devastations, three Thunderstrikes and a -KB IO use that extra slot and give you 2% Recovery in addition to everything else.

 

Without the Superior upgrade path, the set is under-tuned, to the point of hornswoggling players into wasting slots.  It should be renamed Underwhelming Force.

 

And where am I going to slot two Basilisk's Gaze on an Energy/Energy/Force blaster?  I don't have any Hold powers and I'm using all of my Pools already.

 

For that matter, where am I going to cram four Devastations in my build when all my single-target ranged attacks are six-slotted with either Thunderstrike (for ranged defense, which I have just barely soft-capped) or Blaster ATO's (for ranged defense and other things besides)?

 

Overwhelming Force might not be the most efficient set in terms of set bonuses out there, but it gives me several things I need (Damage bonus, Ranged defense bonus, Knockback protection) and a couple of things that are nice to have (+HP, +regen)  all in one place.

 

If I could slot a second set of it in Nova, I'd definitely prefer that over the 5-piece Scirocco's + Sudden Acceleration KB -> KD I have slotted in it now.

[Rudra]

13 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

37 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Here's a thought I posted on the concurrent other KB-KD thread. What if Sudden Acceleration was modified to replace some of its KB with damage or endurance reduction? Would that help people? Would it make the set more appealing to those claiming it is a tax and have them use more than just the proc?

 

Edit:

What is the plural of "hiatus", anyway? Hiatuses or hiatus.

 

It would certainly help.  I still question the design of a set that has Knockback enhancement and then turns KB into KD, just because the set works against itself inhrently.  It kind of defies logic.

Then pose a suggestion to the devs, make a new thread, to discuss what would need to be done to make people accept Sudden Acceleration as a set. Because it already provides a non-unique way to turn KB into KD. It gives good set bonuses. Propose tweaks that everyone can accept that makes the set not work against itself. It would need to stay Sudden Acceleration in the Knockback pool in my opinion. It would need to keep the current set bonuses. Replacing the KB components to make it less a band aid and more a desirable set for the naysayers would be on the table for me though. Probably not all the KB components, maybe just 2 or 3 of them, but making those changes should not upset the community. I hope.

 

Edit: Then again, I've already stated and proven that I'm fine running with sub-optimal sets. So I honestly don't get the aversion to Sudden Acceleration.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Rudra

[Vanden]

56 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

@Vanden - You're right.  It does always knock the target away from the blaster now.  That's so much better.  Thank you for pointing this out, because I can only guess this change went in during one of the periodic hiatuses (is that a word?  What is the plural of "hiatus", anyway)? that I took from Live so as not to burn out.

 

I don't think it was ever actually changed. Like you, I remember it scattering enemies every which way originally. But the only way the power could have done that way back at launch would be using a pseudo-pet, and I don't know why the original powers devs would go to all that trouble to make the power worse. It doesn't make any sense.

[Stormwalker]

32 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Edit: Then again, I've already stated and proven that I'm fine running with sub-optimal sets. So I honestly don't get the aversion to Sudden Acceleration.

 

Honestly, now that I know that Explosive Blast got fixed at some point and I don't have to slot KB -> KD in it, this is really more a matter of "It would be nice" than a matter of need.  Of course, this is still the "Suggestions" forum, and "it would be nice if..." is still a Suggestion.  You may notice that I edited the initial post quite a bit (and am actually going to edit it more, but I'm trying to do it in a way that preserves what I originally said so it doesn't look like I'm trying to make other people look unreasonable with their responses) to reflect this.

 

The design of the Sudden Acceleration set still boggles my mind, though, because of the self-defeating nature of it.

 

I guess what I'm saying is, "I can accept possibly slotting a suboptimal set if I feel like it's my choice to do so, rather than because I have to," if that makes sense.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Stormwalker

[Stormwalker]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

 

I don't think it was ever actually changed. Like you, I remember it scattering enemies every which way originally. But the only way the power could have done that way back at launch would be using a pseudo-pet, and I don't know why the original powers devs would go to all that trouble to make the power worse. It doesn't make any sense.

 

I swear I remember arguments on the forums about it, though.  Specifically complaining that it had uncontrollable knockback and needed to be changed.

 

Oh, well.  Maybe my memory is that poor.  At any rate, it works in a reasonable and useful way now., and that's the truly important thing.

[Stormwalker]

Something I wanted to add to this thread.  Basically, I'm quoting myself from the KB -> KD toggle thread here, but it elucidates better than what I've previously said why I think adding a new set with damage-set enhancement and a KB -> KD is the right solution here.

 

"Truth be told, it's not even really because of the loss in performance from Sudden Acceleration on a practical purpose.  I mean, I don't like it from a practical perspective, but that's not the main reason.  Mostly, it's that the self-defeating design of the Sudden Acceleration set drives me a little bit nuts on principle.  Why do we have a set that has not one, not two, not three, but five Knockback enhancement components in it, and then one piece that converts KB -> KD, nullifying the effects of all of that Knockback enhancement.  It's... kind of a ridiculous design, to be blunt.  And it drives the engineer in me up a wall.  So if I seem very passionate about it, that's a large part of why."