(Yet) Another Mastermind idea

[Rudra]

You asked for numbers comparing the T1 pets base attack against a Blaster's T1 attack. So I grabbed those numbers for you from City of Data. You are moving the goal posts. The MM's T1 pets using their basic attack compared to a Blaster's T1 attack at level 50 do 1.337x more damage. As level 48 pets. Where do I say those T1 pets will outdamage a Blaster in normal play? A Blaster gets access to 9 different powers in their primary pool, 8 of which are guaranteed attacks. Pets get up to 3 if they are fully upgraded. A Blaster can fit in nukes and other burst damage attacks as part of their attack chain. The T1 pets cannot. All that is a given and had nothing to do with your request for numbers. If you want to compare a Blaster going full bore against a boss as compared to a MM going full bore against a boss, that brings up the question of how well the MM can support the pets against the boss' attacks and whether or not the boss has any subordinates left to pull pets away from smacking him down. It also brings up the question of how the Blaster is slotted as compared to the MM. If they are both slotted for damage as their focus and the boss is the only target? I'll bet on the MM taking his/her/its target down faster than the Blaster. If the boss has any support and the MM is in BodyGuard Mode for survival? I'll bet on the Blaster. If the boss has lots of AoEs or high damage AoEs? I'll bet on the Blaster.

 

Then you get into what are the Blaster's powers. I'll bet on a damage focused Fire Blaster to drop anything not resistant to fire faster than any MM.

 

However, your request was for a straight comparison between the T1 pets of a MM and the T1 power of a Blaster. And I chose the powers that were most alike for usable comparison.

 

On 1/16/2023 at 8:24 PM, plainguy said:

 

I don't know the numbers or how to accurately get the numbers. Further the Devs don't need to prove SH!T to me. 

But I would like to see the the DPS numbers of the Tier 1 pets vs a level 50 mob based on the Mastermind DPS rating which includes resummoning as needed to complete the fight.  Then if the numbers add up, then I wouldn't keep pushing the issue.

My personal belief is that between the level difference and the resummoning that the total DPS for the Tier 1 pet is under performing compared to whatever is expected for a similar power for that level. 

If I am still not making sense I will try to explain it this way.

For the sake of clarity. If a Mastermind can only do 80% of the max damage a Blaster can, then it will take that much longer to kill a mob. 
So a 1000 HP mob would take 10 hits from a Blaster level 1 attack power doing 100dps over X amount of time, whereas a Mastermind Tier 1 pet would should take 12.5 attacks doing 80dps over X amount of time. 

So in theory if both attacks used 3 endurance with a recharge rate of 3 seconds it would take a Blaster 30 seconds and 30 endurance to kill the mob off, whereas the Tier 1 pet would take 37.5 second and 37.5 endurance to kill the mob off. 

But that is assuming the Tier 1 pet were equal in level to the Blaster level 1 attack which they are not. The Tier 1 pet is 2 levels lower at level 50. So in essence it is a level 48 attacking a level 50. So there are not to hit mechanics and lower DPS values that come into play because they are level 48. 

The next issue is are we saying that 3 Tier 1 pets are at 80% value in DPS output to a level 1 Blaster attack?
If so, then if one pet is lost the DPS output would decrease and the kill time would increase even more. 

I understand the quick notion that comes up is the pets are fire and forget. In this simple scenario the pets and the mob keep slugging it out until the Mastermind, Pets or Mob dies. 
But we do need to account for resummoning time. We need to account for defenses and resistances. Basically actual game play. 

Again I also know there can be a rebuttal of yea, but that is just your Tier 1 pet.. You have other pets as well attacking that mob. 
My response is do you? Is it a requirement to have ALL your pets attack one mob at a time?
Mind you this is what do. I go top down in strength and let the AOE damage kill off the minions. 
But I don't know what others do or dare say what they are required to do in their own gameplay.  There is a reason why you can control 3 sets of pets independently.

Simply put, without doing all the number crunching and testing and statistics.. I will say Tier 1 pets suck and are lacking. 

As has been stated numerous times Masterminds clearly show their weaknesses during TF and are useless at higher TF settings. 

The Devs should look at the Tier 1 pet output. 
There has to be some numbers or based rating that say .1 endurance equals .50 DPS per second then modified by AT value. Followed by some kill ratio factor. Meaning players should be able to smash buttons to kill X amount of mobs per hour to feel entertained and not feel bored or have a feeling of a sluggish slow paced Archtype. 

If Tier 1 pets are not meeting these basic needs or values then something is wrong with them.    
 

 

There is your post asking for the numbers. You said that the MM's T1 pets are underperforming compared to a Blaster's level 1 attack. And using comparable powers, they are not. The MM's T1 pets are keeping pace with the Blaster's T1 attack. Doing better damage even. That is mitigated by the lower levels, but you can boost your pets accuracy just like you can boost the Blaster's attacks' accuracy.

[Rudra]

40 minutes ago, plainguy said:

 

PLAYER
16.8916 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.91s (100% chance) (target = critter)

.9 / .3  = 3
16.89 every .3 seconds for .9 seconds = 16.89 x 3 = 50.67

 

PETS ( PER PET )

5.6444 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.7s (100% chance)

.7 / .3 = 2

5.6 every .3 seconds for .7 seconds = 5.6 x 2 = 11.2 

3 Pets 

3 x 11.2 = 33.6

 

I am sure you will show me where my math might be wrong.
Mind you if make the pets level 48 its even less damage.

 

 

The pets are already level 48 in the comparison. The MM is level 50. So that makes the T1 pets level 48.

 

Also, here, I'll fix your math. (Edit: You neglected to account for the difference in recharge times which directly impacts DPS.)

50.6748 * 3 = 152.0244

67.7328 * 2 = 135.4656

 

Pets no longer do greater damage, but are still doing 89.1408% damage.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Rudra

[plainguy]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

The pets are already level 48 in the comparison. The MM is level 50. So that makes the T1 pets level 48.

Still now showing me where my math is incorrect. 

But if you go to city of data and pick the pets they have them at level 50. You have to move the slider to make them 48.. But again the dps changes to fractions less.

[Rudra]

You also need to add in that the MM still has 3 (maybe 4 depending on secondary) additional pets. And the MM still has his/her/its own attacks to add in to the mix if desired as well. (Edit: Especially now since the MM's attacks have been adjusted to bring added benefits into play.)

Edited January 19, 2023 by Rudra

[plainguy]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You asked for numbers comparing the T1 pets base attack against a Blaster's T1 attack. So I grabbed those numbers for you from City of Data. You are moving the goal posts. The MM's T1 pets using their basic attack compared to a Blaster's T1 attack at level 50 do 1.337x more damage. As level 48 pets. Where do I say those T1 pets will outdamage a Blaster in normal play? A Blaster gets access to 9 different powers in their primary pool, 8 of which are guaranteed attacks. Pets get up to 3 if they are fully upgraded. A Blaster can fit in nukes and other burst damage attacks as part of their attack chain. The T1 pets cannot. All that is a given and had nothing to do with your request for numbers. If you want to compare a Blaster going full bore against a boss as compared to a MM going full bore against a boss, that brings up the question of how well the MM can support the pets against the boss' attacks and whether or not the boss has any subordinates left to pull pets away from smacking him down. It also brings up the question of how the Blaster is slotted as compared to the MM. If they are both slotted for damage as their focus and the boss is the only target? I'll bet on the MM taking his/her/its target down faster than the Blaster. If the boss has any support and the MM is in BodyGuard Mode for survival? I'll bet on the Blaster. If the boss has lots of AoEs or high damage AoEs? I'll bet on the Blaster.

 

Then you get into what are the Blaster's powers. I'll bet on a damage focused Fire Blaster to drop anything not resistant to fire faster than any MM.

 

However, your request was for a straight comparison between the T1 pets of a MM and the T1 power of a Blaster. And I chose the powers that were most alike for usable comparison.

 

There is your post asking for the numbers. You said that the MM's T1 pets are underperforming compared to a Blaster's level 1 attack. And using comparable powers, they are not. The MM's T1 pets are keeping pace with the Blaster's T1 attack. Doing better damage even. That is mitigated by the lower levels, but you can boost your pets accuracy just like you can boost the Blaster's attacks' accuracy.

No not moving the goal post.

No slotted powers.. 
Blaster Burst against Merc pet burst

 

I didn't pick the blaster power, you did..  

My comment at this simplest is saying Tier 1 pets should be looked at and improved, but first look at what advantage the Mastermind would have if the pets were already summoned with the upgrades in place.  

Maybe with the pets already upgraded, that might allow for a smoother game play and an overall reduction in DPS for the mastermind. 

Again I am sure they have some numbers where they want each AT to be DPS wise.

[plainguy]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You also need to add in that the MM still has 3 (maybe 4 depending on secondary) additional pets. And the MM still has his/her/its own attacks to add in to the mix if desired as well. (Edit: Especially now since the MM's attacks have been adjusted to bring added benefits into play.)

Wait

You are the one who did the math.. 
You are the one who posted those numbers.. 
I just relooked and they didn't seem right.. 

So I went to city of data and I went to mids and looked at the database. Which pretty much is city of data. 

Again I "think" I know basic math. Not saying I understand it all. 

But as you copied and I read and I even pulled out my calculator to make sure .9 / .3 = 3 and that .7 / .3 = 2.33333 

So unless MY math is wrong.. Which I don't think it is .. Mastermind mind merc burst combined does less dps then blaster and not more.. 
Which makes your numbers incorrect. If I am wrong I am more than willing to that the L here.. 

[Rudra]

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=mastermind_pets.soldier.asmg_burst&at=minion_henchman

 

Also note when accessing the window, the pets are listed as level 48.

 

Create Entity (level 48, priority 'Pet') (all affected targets) until caster defeated after 2.0s

 

 

● Entity MastermindPets_Soldier

 

You are subtracting levels on top of their reduced levels.

 

Edit: And if you use 2.3333 as the multiplier for the pets instead of 2? Their damage goes up to 158.0206. Higher than the Blaster's again.

Edit again: And if you prefer the level 48 damage for comparison? 5.613 * 3 pets * 4 rotations in the listed 12 second window of comparison * 2.333 for cycles of damage per attack is 157.1415.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Rudra

[plainguy]

18 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The pets are already level 48 in the comparison. The MM is level 50. So that makes the T1 pets level 48.

 

Also, here, I'll fix your math.

50.6748 * 3 = 152.0244

67.7328 * 2 = 135.4656

 

Pets no longer do greater damage, but are still doing 89.1408% damage.

 

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=mastermind_pets.soldier.asmg_burst&at=minion_henchman

 

Also note when accessing the window, the pets are listed as level 48.

 

Create Entity (level 48, priority 'Pet') (all affected targets) until caster defeated after 2.0s

 

 

● Entity MastermindPets_Soldier

 

You are subtracting levels on top of their reduced levels.

First  your numbers were WRONG.. 

Secondly I didn't use the pets info from City of data, I just used your numbers. 

So like I said in another post as well, which you somewhat echoed.  Which is you need ALL the PETS to on a target to do some dps.. 
Mind you I don't want Tier 1 pets to out do any AT.. 
I will reiterate I think the weakness is in the delay of summoning and upgrading and to some extent the weakness of the tier 1 pets.  

 

[Rudra]

I even provided the link to where I am getting my numbers from. How are they wrong? (Edit: And those are still not upgraded T1 pets using the only non-Brawl attack they have.)

Edited January 19, 2023 by Rudra

[plainguy]

On 1/17/2023 at 2:09 PM, Rudra said:

(Edit: If you prefer simpler math: Blaster does 16.8916 every 4 seconds. So 50.6748 damage every 12 seconds. Mercenary tier 1 pets do 5.6444 damage every 3 seconds. So 22.5776 every 12 seconds each. For a total of 67.7328 damage every 12 seconds combined.)

 

Both ATs still at level 50. Both powers still unenhanced. All data still pulled from City of Data, except this time I am referencing the pet power instead of the MM power. My apologies.

 

40 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The pets are already level 48 in the comparison. The MM is level 50. So that makes the T1 pets level 48.

 

Also, here, I'll fix your math.

50.6748 * 3 = 152.0244

67.7328 * 2 = 135.4656

 

Pets no longer do greater damage, but are still doing 89.1408% damage.

 

15 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I even provided the link to where I am getting my numbers from. How are they wrong?

 

I do see now you edited your other post. 

Where are you getting 12 seconds ? 

The power clearly states the DPS per .3 seconds and for the duration for each power.. 
That is a single attack
Why are you convoluting it even more? Because you need the win?

Your numbers are wrong and you stated it twice that they were wrong..
You listed further math to show I was right. 
Now you want to say again they are not..

Even when you proved me correct you had to add in that the pets are doing 89% damage.. 
89% damage to what? It doesn't matter.. 

They are doing less DPS.. You even proved my point even more.. You need all 3 pets and you said similar in your post as well. 
So you need all 3 pets on a single target to out dps a single attack level 1 attack from a blaster.. 
So it takes 5 powers from a mastermind, 3 summoning, 2 upgrades to compete just about compete against a level 1 power from a blaster.. 

Thank you for helping me prove my point

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by plainguy

[Rudra]

As I said in the post you cited where I gave the corrected numbers, the 12 seconds is to account for the difference in recharge rates. The Blaster's Burst has a recharge of 4 seconds. The MM's T1 pets' Quick Burst has a recharge of 3 seconds. So they use their attack more frequently than the Blaster. If you prefer it by the second instead? Here you go:

 

Blaster Burst:

16.8916 * 3 (attacks per cycle) /  4 second recharge =  12.6687

 

Pet Quick Burst:

5.613 * 2.333 (attacks per cycle) / 3 second recharge * 3 pets = 13.0951

 

Edit: Note also that I am using the level 48 number as you requested. And again: There are no upgrades, not even the MM's 2 pet upgrades, involved in any of this math. Would you like to add in the additonal attacks the T1 pets get when upgraded for the comparison to the Blaster's T1 power?

Edited January 19, 2023 by Rudra

[plainguy]

5 minutes ago, Rudra said:

As I said in the post you cited where I gave the corrected numbers, the 12 seconds is to account for the difference in recharge rates. The Blaster's Burst has a recharge of 4 seconds. The MM's T1 pets' Quick Burst has a recharge of 3 seconds. So they use their attack more frequently than the Blaster. If you prefer it by the second instead? Here you go:

 

Blaster Burst:

16.8916 * 3 (attacks per cycle) /  4 second recharge =  12.6687

 

Pet Quick Burst:

5.613 * 2.333 (attacks per cycle) / 3 second recharge * 3 pets = 13.0951

 

Edit: Note also that I am using the level 48 number as you requested.

Who cares about the recharge..

Its one attack.. 

And no.. 
Every 3 seconds the 3 pets will do 33 points of damage.. 
Every 4 seconds the Blaster will do 50 pts of damage 

So over 12 seconds the 3 pets will do 132 and Blaster will do 150.. 

Again.. 

You brought the math.. I just looked at the data you brought in.

PLAYER
16.8916 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.91s (100% chance) (target = critter)

.9 / .3  = 3
16.89 every .3 seconds for .9 seconds = 16.89 x 3 = 50.67

 

PETS ( PER PET )

5.6444 points of Lethal damage (all affected targets) every 0.3s for 0.7s (100% chance)

.7 / .3 = 2

5.6 every .3 seconds for .7 seconds = 5.6 x 2 = 11.2 

3 Pets 

3 x 11.2 = 33.6

 

I don't care how you try to spin it NOW.. 
The numbers are right there..  
That is the DPS for those attacks for a SINGLE ATTACK.
MIDS has the blaster at even higher. 

Every 3 seconds the 3 pets will do that DPS above.. 
Every 4 seconds the Blaster will do that DPS above.. 


Those are YOUR NUMBERS.. 
YOU STATED that the tier 1 pets did more DPS than a Blaster level 1 burst.. 

You were wrong.. 
I won't entertain you any more as this is what you do in just about every thread you post.. You derail and debate.. 

The OP was correct in what he was saying.. Then he was bullied into back peddling. 

Make the pets auto upgrade in test and take it from there..  
The rebuttal was they don't want mastermind pets to be throw away pets like other AT pets?  What ?? That makes no sense.
So what your saying the AT that is SPECIFICALLY dependent on pets SHOULD be required to upgrade on every resummon? That the AT that clearly is based around Pets has not figured out how to automatically build a better robot? Or his his MERCS are that dumb that they don't know how to dress themselves? 

BUT every other AT that has a pet, they get their pet at full level, full powers and ready to go?  They have ONE pet and somehow they figured out how to get their pet at full power. But the guy who has 6 pets has zero clue after 50 levels how to do it? 

That is utter nonsense.. 

 

[Rudra]

Wow you are trying. Because no one factors rate of fire/recharge into DPS. I have no idea what I was thinking about trying to figure out their respective DPS instead of assuming they would make a single solitary attack and then stand there with their thumbs shoved somewhere inappropriate.

 

Look, I'm not saying MM's out-damage Blasters. For crying out loud, Blasters have an entire primary pool to draw from for their attacks at level 32, let alone level 50. MM pets have 1 attack each out the gate (edit: not counting Brawl) and up to 2 more after upgrades (edit: plus any auxiliary non-damage powers like the Jounin's confuse powder). Blasters are also a high damage AT meant to mow down their opposition (even while mezzed) whereas a MM is a walking team that has to manage their wayward and individually very squishy members.

 

As MMs lose their pets, they have to re-summon and re-upgrade to maintain. If they can't take the time to upgrade such as on a fast moving team? Their pets are definitely lackluster compared to the other team members, If they can't re-summon such as on most speed runs or other very fast moving teams? They are relegated to the role of bad Defender. No one is arguing that.

 

And yes, pets can be very difficult to keep alive depending on the opposition. (They can also be very easy to keep alive depending on the opposition.)

 

You asked for a numbers comparison between Blaster's T1 attack and MM's T1 pets. I got those numbers for you. No magic math to spin anything. I adjusted my numbers based on the added info you provided. (Thank you for pointing out that error.) Everything is right there for everyone to see. Including the link to check the reference pets' attack values. I gave you the DPS numbers for the Burst power from Assault Rifle as used by a level 50 Blaster. I gave you the DPS numbers from the Quick Burst power the Mercenaries' MM's T1 pets get out the gate when summoned. Even adjusted down to the lower value. No enhancements. No MM upgrades. No anything. (Edit: And if you prefer damage per activation? Then just change the divisors to 5 and 4 respectively.)

 

The T1 pets will suffer accuracy penalties because they are level 48 as opposed to 50. Their accuracy can be improved just like any other power, but on a +4 anything other than incarnate content (and maybe Hard Mode content, I don't know), that is a 6 level disadvantage for them to overcome. That is no small disadvantage. Mostly relegating the pets to damage mitigation for the MM. However, ATs are not balanced around +4/x8 play.

Edited January 20, 2023 by Rudra

[Wavicle]

Also keep in mind the pets do not just have one attack.

[Rudra]

Two things mentioned in this thread I would like?

 

1) Make MM pets less fragile. Ninjas somewhat address that by being able to have their defense enhanced in the first upgrade power and robots do too by being able to enhance their resists in the first upgrade power. A general improvement to MM pet survivability would be welcome though. (Maybe so that the pets stop being one-shot by the more powerful enemies? I don't know.)

 

2) Make MM pets invulnerable to harm when first summoned for a second or two. This way they don't spawn in already dead because a mob threw a massive damage AoE that killed the pet before it could even be rendered arriving on the screen.

 

I don't know what to do about their accuracy though, since it only really comes into play on like +4 runs.

[plainguy]

On 1/19/2023 at 4:16 PM, Rudra said:

Two things mentioned in this thread I would like?

 

1) Make MM pets less fragile. Ninjas somewhat address that by being able to have their defense enhanced in the first upgrade power and robots do too by being able to enhance their resists in the first upgrade power. A general improvement to MM pet survivability would be welcome though. (Maybe so that the pets stop being one-shot by the more powerful enemies? I don't know.)

 

2) Make MM pets invulnerable to harm when first summoned for a second or two. This way they don't spawn in already dead because a mob threw a massive damage AoE that killed the pet before it could even be rendered arriving on the screen.

 

I don't know what to do about their accuracy though, since it only really comes into play on like +4 runs.

This is the testing that needs to be done.

You need Testing dummies with the following setup

• Minion - No attacks
• LT - No attacks
• Boss - No attacks
• Elite Boss - No attacks

Then you need Testing dummies with the following setup

• Minion -  1 attack that auto kills Tier 1 Pet
• LT -  1 attack that auto kills Tier 1 Pet
• Boss - 1 attack that auto kills Tier 1 pet
• Elite Boss -  1 attack that auto kills Tier 1 pet

Then you need Testing dummies with the following setup

• Minion -  1 attack that auto kills Tier 2 Pet
• LT -  1 attack that auto kills Tier 2 Pet
• Boss - 1 attack that auto kills Tier 2 pet
• Elite Boss -  1 attack that auto kills Tier 2 pet

Then you need Testing dummies with the following setup

• Minion -  1 attack that auto kills Tier 3 Pet
• LT -  1 attack that auto kills Tier 3 Pet
• Boss - 1 attack that auto kills Tier 3 pet
• Elite Boss -  1 attack that auto kills Tier 3 pet

 

Then you need Testing dummies with the following setup

• Minion -  1 attack that auto kills Random Pet every 60 seconds
• LT -  1 attack that auto kills Random Pet every 60 seconds
• Boss - 1 attack that auto kills Random Pet every 60 seconds
• Elite Boss -  1 attack that auto kills Random Pet every 60 seconds

 

The first set of pets is to determine the following;

• How many pets are hitting individually and as a Tier Set
• How much DPS each individual pet is doing
• How much total DPS each Tier Pet set is doing
• Total DPS damage for all pets combined
• Total time to kill each mob type
• This must be done without pet upgrades, with just the first pet upgrade, with just the second pet upgrade and then finally full upgrade.

Developers need to determine how true this chart below is. To me it makes no sense that Robot Mastermind for example would do more Melee damage than Range damage.

Archetype	Melee	Range
Blaster	1.000	1.125
Controller	0.550	0.550
Defender	0.550	0.650
Scrapper	1.125	0.500
Tanker	0.950	0.800
Peacebringer	0.850	0.800
Bright Nova	N/A	1.200
White Dwarf	1.000	N/A
Warshade	0.850	0.800
Dark Nova	N/A	1.200
Black Dwarf	1.000	N/A
Sentinel	0.950	0.950
Brute	0.750	0.750
Stalker	1.000	0.600
Mastermind	0.550	0.550
Henchman 1	0.450	0.350
Henchman 2	0.550	0.450
Henchman 3	0.650	0.550
Dominator	1.050	0.950
Corruptor	0.750	0.750
Arachnos Widow	1.000	1.000
Arachnos Soldier	1.000	1.000
Pet	1.000	0.800

That being said.
There has to be some weight to the topic of Mastermind pets being Fire & Forget compared to Mastermind Control & Maintenance of the pets.  It is either an even trade, a 1 to 1 ratio or one has more weight then the other. Personally because Masterminds are not of great value on anything fast moving, prone to accidental aggro or adds, and some weakness in keeping pets alive. I think Control & Maintenance is higher than fire and forget. 

Again that is my personal opinion. The devs need to make the overall decision for everyone. 

The reason why this matters and has to be valued is because it has to be enumerated and used in scoring the overall dps of each Tier pet. 

Here is another thing that needs to be weighed in and I will explain why. I asked this either earlier or in another thread. 
How do you use your pets to fight? 
Personally again, I command all of my pets to attack one mob, usually the boss and then just tab to target the next mob and then the next mob.. ETC, so on and so on. 
I asked others in the thread and the response that were posted were pretty much similar, which was basically all pets on one mob.  
I did not see anyone saying they broke their pets into groups of Pets Team A and Pet Team B to fight different groups of mobs or targets at the same time. 

Why does this matter?
Because you need to realize that is literally just one giant attack of varying chances to hit and DPS.
So you are using 3 attacks that require 2 upgrades to be at maximum potential at level 50. 
No other AT has what I would like to say crutch at level 50. Because if you don't upgrade, your pets can't do specific attacks which decreases their DPS value and because some attacks might be vital and key, such as Swarm missile for example, that means that mobs will last longer, thus potentially affecting pet survivability. 

So simply sticking at level 50 ATM.. 
I believe that a 6 pets with 2 upgrades is nothing more than a Tier 9 attack. So I am equating it to Full Auto,  Rain of Arrows, Hail of Bullets. Basically some sort of crash less nuke.
The difference is as pets die off potentially so does your DPS.  This is why getting a base line on all the pets DPS against mob ranks matter. As an example Battle Drones going up against a LT might only do a total of 60 points of damage, so that comes out to 20 DPS per Tier 1 Battle Drone. But loosing at Tier 3 Assault Bot might be costing you 70% of your damage on a LT, so now your Tier 9 crash less nuke essentially lost 70% damage when used. 

Or add in that you will loose DPS because the upgrade were not done in time.

So there is A LOT of variance for a Mastermind DPS wise for his Tier 9 attack, compared to another Archtype. 

At the end of the day there has to be a standard set 

Another way of looking at this is Each pet and upgrade is 2.03 seconds to cast. So that is a 10.15 cast time, ( I am being gracious here) add in 2 seconds more to target and commands the pet to attack. I will NOT even argue or debate about any server delay or lag, because it takes more than 10 seconds to summon and upgrade pets. 

But everything is perfect. 

So it initially takes you 12.15 seconds to cast your Tier 9 attack doing X amount of DPS based on the mob type. 

Assuming none of your pets die, you can continue to do X amount of DPS at no endurance cost. 

This is where understanding DPS values based on various Pet teams load out matters. 

The big rebuttal is usually "You can run away to re-summon and upgrade pet if the battle is that bad".. 

A simple reminder is you are running away to have the ability to use a power.. You are NOT running away because you are low on health. Simply because you know, at this point you cannot use your Tier 9 power to its full potential. Again no OTHER Archtype at full health has to run away to be able to use a power because essentially they are now powerless. 

Any time you run away to re summon and upgrade, that is a loss of DPS. There MUST be a weight added to that. Because if I play my mastermind for 1 hour and I have to run away X amount of times to re-summon pets and and I don't have to do this with my Blaster. There has to be a determination if my Blaster as an example would have done MORE DPS in that 1 hour time because there was no reset required.  Or was my mastermind Tier 9 power attack doing much higher DPS or am I doing a much more consistent DPS compared to my Blaster. Mind you all things being equal The DPS chart above would say Blaster does more damage.

At the end of the day Mastermind game play is totally unique compare to other Archtypes. These nuances and variables must be taken into account.

I personally believe that removing the requirement to upgrade pets and just make then AUTO upgrade would remove 4.06 seconds of down time in the middle of a fight and would immediately bolster the DPS and survivability of the pets  and make for a smoother gameplay for the Mastermind and would even help out to SOME DEGREE on fast paced teams. 

The next step potentially I would suggest is add a simple immunity timer of a few seconds to pets on summoning. 
I think was burns a player is that wipe on re-summoning in the middle of a fight.
The fact is you cannot spend 12.15 seconds in the middle of a fight trying to get pets ready..

Anyone how has played Masterminds has endured this many times. Not once in a while, not sometimes. It can happen  multiple times a night while solo and TONS more when on a team. The simple issue is the Aggro is overwhelming sometimes because mob groups are too close together and its a bad pull or mob runs off and pets give chase and since there is a bit of lag / delay. Some times telling pets to stop is just too late as they get too close to another group for aggro. 

Personally just like my blaster powers increase in value as I level up, I believe so should the pets and that the pet upgrades should just be other attacks for the Mastermind. The pet upgrades should just be baked into the pets at the specific levels.  



 


 

[Rudra]

Just a few responses here.

 

52 minutes ago, plainguy said:

How do you use your pets to fight? 
Personally again, I command all of my pets to attack one mob, usually the boss and then just tab to target the next mob and then the next mob.. ETC, so on and so on. 
I asked others in the thread and the response that were posted were pretty much similar, which was basically all pets on one mob.  
I did not see anyone saying they broke their pets into groups of Pets Team A and Pet Team B to fight different groups of mobs or targets at the same time. 

I don't typically command my pets to attack a target unless I've reached the boss or EB or AV. And even then, most times I leave my pets to aggro on whatever they want. They are keeping me alive in Bodyguard Mode. If the boss, EB, or AV is a problem and has problematic support? I break my pets into groups. Keeping my biggest guns (higher tier pets) on target while peeling off the lower pets to pick off difficult mobs making the boss, EB, or AV fight unnecessarily problematic. If I'm on a team? Then I send all my pets against the boss, EB, or AV and rely on my teammates and situational awareness to keep me alive. Most times though? My pets are fine just smacking everything in the spawn and I'm safe. Apparently that's just me from reading your post though.

 

52 minutes ago, plainguy said:

A simple reminder is you are running away to have the ability to use a power.. You are NOT running away because you are low on health. Simply because you know, at this point you cannot use your Tier 9 power to its full potential. Again no OTHER Archtype at full health has to run away to be able to use a power because essentially they are now powerless. 

My MMs never run away just to summon the pets. Most times I can stand in the middle of the fight, even against an AV, and just re-summon my pets when they are killed. All my pets are killed? Most of the time I can still re-summon my pets and have them defend me while I summon more pets. I typically summon my T1s first because they have numbers. And even if they die shortly after I summoned them? Usually I've had time to use my heal, summon my T2s and T3, then heal again to summon my T1s again. My MMs only run from the fight when my health drops to an unacceptable level of risk trying to summon in the middle of the fight. However, reading your post, I seem to be in the very small minority here.

 

Why am I making these responses? Because they need to be made. Not everyone plays the same way you do or your friends do. (Or apparently all the respondents you are quoting.) My weekly friend prefers her Robotics MM as her primary character. And while our play styles are vastly different, she plays with pets always in aggressive mode for instance, we do somethings the same. Like not running from the fight unless it looks like it is entirely too dangerous to remain and re-summon. (Which means we tend to die if things go bad because our health bar isn't quite red enough yet....) Different people have different approaches to the same thing. (Edit again: And if she is playing her Scrapper instead? She complains my Ninja MM is killing things too fast for her to keep up. And if I'm on one of my non-MM characters and she is on her MM? I'm complaining to her to at least let me contribute to the fight before her bots eat the spawns. It's just the two of us on those runs though and it is a perception thing. Lots of MM kills on the chat log as opposed to our other character.)

 

Now that those responses have been made? Believe it or not, I actually agree with you on multiple things. I'm not trying to sink your arguments. I'm not even trying to debate you on most of your comments. Are the MMs T1 pets frustratingly weak? In many occasions, yes. (Though I can usually keep them alive even against +2/x4 spawns without too much trouble depending on the faction and specific mobs.) Is it aggravating to re-summon pets only for them to drop dead the moment they appear on screen because the boss designed to make Tankers feel threatened has several huge AoEs and happens to trigger them killing my newly summoned pets at very bad times? Yes! Do I favor my pets on the incarnate content as long as they stay within Supremacy radius so they are also level 53 and able to be more effective against enemies? Yes!!

 

I'm fine with the devs taking another look at MM pets. Being able to enhance the ninjas' defense by enhancing the first upgrade and being able to enhance the bots resists by enhancing the first upgrade was a very welcome quality of life change. I just also keep in mind that as MMs currently are, playing at "normal" difficulty level for the game as opposed to the currently viewed "normal" difficulty as perceived by the plkayer base after all the power creep that has happened in the game, MMs are very powerful. And ATs are not balanced around higher difficulty levels.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Rudra
Edited to correct mispelled word, wrong word choice, and add comments in parenthesis.