Are Kin and NA Stackable?

[drgantz]

I've had many times when I've joined a group with a Kin or NA and found one or more other people with the same power set.  Is this a waste, or do they stack?

[Uun]

They do stack from different casters (Kinetics even stacks from the same caster), but only up to the relevant cap. Hitting the damage cap with Fulcrum shift is pretty easy. Nature doesn't really have any abilities that approach the relevant cap, so you should get the full benefit of stacking.

[honoroit]

grumble grumble elec affinity empowering circuit does NOT... grumble 

[Uun]

2 hours ago, honoroit said:

grumble grumble elec affinity empowering circuit does NOT... grumble 

Stacking is per caster. Empowering Circuit will stack from different casters.

[honoroit]

49 minutes ago, Uun said:

Stacking is per caster. Empowering Circuit will stack from different casters.

i mean it doesnt self stack like fulcrum, or siphon speed.

[Uun]

1 hour ago, honoroit said:

i mean it doesnt self stack like fulcrum, or siphon speed.

There's very little that does in any of the support sets outside of Kinetics. There are odd pieces of powers that self stack (i.e., the -regen and -end in Shock, the -regen in Envenom, the -rech in Ice Arrow). Of course any power that summons a pseudo pet can self stack if you're able to have more than one out at the same time (i.e., Acid Mortar).

[honoroit]

18 minutes ago, Uun said:

There's very little that does in any of the support sets outside of Kinetics

 

thats my grumble, it means you HAVE to kin, or your lying to yourself, which i do. but its a limit of player choice because 400%++ damage is real for anyone smart enough to get in range, and easy on a secondary even, with kin.

[Zect]

16 hours ago, honoroit said:

thats my grumble, it means you HAVE to kin, or your lying to yourself, which i do. but its a limit of player choice because 400%++ damage is real for anyone smart enough to get in range, and easy on a secondary even, with kin.

 

First of all, Elec is far more powerful, defensively, than kin is. Also: empowering gives tohit, FS does not. So it makes sense that kin should add more damage than elecaff, because it is the more offensively focused set.

 

Secondly, saying that kin is 400% damage makes it sound a lot more powerful than it is. What is true is that the damage cap for non-dps AT's is 400% and that of dps AT's is 500% (and brutes at 700%, due to their fury mechanic).

 

However, 100% of that is the power's base damage. (it's 400%. not +400%.) This means we can still add +300%. Then, your enhancements and set bonuses also count towards this cap. Red ED starts at +95%. about +10% from set bonuses on an IO build is pretty common. So well-slotted attacks are already at 195-205% out of 400%.

 

How about the DPS AT's? They have a higher cap of 500%, but musculature alpha is really common on them. The ED-ignoring part of musculature core paragon is 30%. 100% (base) + 95% (enhancements) + 30% (alpha) + 10% set bonuses = 235%. That's a little under half their cap of 500%.

 

So in practice, a kin is double damage or a little more, assuming they saturate their FS. Saying that a kin is 400% damage sounds like it does quadruple damage, which is not true.

 

Now, to be fair, double damage is still really, really strong. Kin is, and always will be, a meta set for good reason. My point is that other sets are not nearly as far behind it as it seems. My favorite example is nature. Overgrowth on a fender gives +82.5% damage, and fender assault is 18.5% or so. Taking both gives +101% damage. If a kin is a little over 2x damage, a perma-overgrowth nature fender is about 1.4x to 1.5x damage, and it can cast overgrowth before engaging. That's very powerful considering that nature is a formidable healing set that also brings resistance buffs and even -res and -regen. Nature is really a beast; people don't seem to realize how powerful it is.

 

The real issue is that the mobs in this game don't do enough damage, and don't punch through player defenses enough. Outside of the two hardmode TF's, you do not suffer defensively when you bring a kin over an elec, when you really ought to. Therefore, the more offensive set becomes the more desired one by default.

[honoroit]

kin is vastly more powerful/impactful.

 

transfusion is a very strong heal which doesn't take as long to execute as the dark accurate one, and is on the same values.

 

+300 vs 100% base, doesn't diminish my point other than highlighting numeric mistake. its 10x the value from EA. ten times.  the team, theyre put to cap, with moderate consistency in reasonable density spawn, and 'hitting a few' puts you where nature is.

 

its overtuned, or the others are underperformers in todays meta, which is a reality.

 

one can romantice an approximate half-at-best for dmg raise on other powersets.

 

ea empowering circuit should self stack. the 10% or so to hit doesn't account for 0.1 (30%) the boost on a 400% cap vs kin.

Edited May 11, 2023 by honoroit
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