Setting up allies BEFORE they can become allies?

[Ultimo]

So, this might sound like a strange one.

I have a mission in an arc, in which the player is supposed to go into his base to meet Citadel before the base is invaded and they have to fight their way out.  There are supposed to be 5 other heroes in the base at the time.  Presently, I have them as allies you acquire as you go in, BEFORE meeting Citadel.  The result is a team of 7 Elite Boss heroes obliterating every enemy they see, with no challenge.  My thinking was to change things around, and make the mission's first objective to go meet Citadel.  The other heroes would be RESCUES, where you would go through the base to make sure THEY get out safely as well, saving them one by one.

The issue with this is, I don't know how to have them appear in the mission before they become Rescue objectives. If you see what I mean.  I'd like them to be in the base, just going about their business, but then later find them as rescue objectives with enemies around them.  I mean, I could have them spawn after meeting Citadel, but then the base would be empty, the heroes wouldn't be there for the player to at least SEE before needing to rescue them.

 

It's late, I'm not sure I'm being clear... but is there a way to do this?

[Frozen Burn]

Hmmm.... tricky one.  You can't have your NPC hang out there, interact with them, then have something else happen to them to interact with them again.  But you can have them spawn, get rid of them, then have them spawn again.  So, perhaps you can try something like this....

 

Set up your heroes in front and middle to meet them (essentially rescues without a mob around them) - these would have to be required objectives (meet hero 1, meet hero 2, meet hero 3, etc), but have them run to nearest door after greeting them.  Then have objective to meet Citadel in back - base gets invaded and new spawns of captured heroes with mobs around them spawn in the front and middle that player and Citadel have to rescue.  The rescued hero can then be set follow, run away, stay still, fight/not fight, etc.  

 

Hopefully, something like that will work?

 

Thinking through this more....

 

You can also keep what you're doing by having the allies follow you to Citadel, but don't have any of the enemies spawn until you meet Citadel in the back.  This can be set up by making each spawn a boss spawn, patrol, etc that you can then code to activate upon completion of Citadel - just look at the map specs to see how many of those spawn types are allowed in each area and put that # of boss spawns there.  The base will be empty except for your allies and Citadel - and once you talk to Cit, all the enemies will spawn.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Frozen Burn
More thoughts.

[cranebump]

I designed 1 mish with an NPC who spawned on floor 2 of an office building. Player meets with them, NPC announces a raid by the bad guys, which occurs on floor #1. NPC runs off (to nearest door), ostensibly to get away.

 

Players take on raid bosses on floor #1, then find the same NPC captured on said floor. Worked fine, in that instance.

 

So, for this to work, you'd have to run into all the heroes on one floor, then have the rescues occur somewhere else. Somewhere COMPLETELY else, if you don't want the duplicates to meet up.

 

The easiest thing to do, honestly, is just have the meeting with Cit occur up front, then head to back to rescue the heroes. You eschew the seeing them earlier, but fighting against the AE engine just makes things more difficult, imho. Path of water, as always.

Edited October 5, 2023 by cranebump

[Ultimo]

Some good ideas, thanks!

[Ankylosaur]

On 10/5/2023 at 6:46 AM, Ultimo said:

The issue with this is, I don't know how to have them appear in the mission before they become Rescue objectives. If you see what I mean.  I'd like them to be in the base, just going about their business, but then later find them as rescue objectives with enemies around them.  I mean, I could have them spawn after meeting Citadel, but then the base would be empty, the heroes wouldn't be there for the player to at least SEE before needing to rescue them.

 

One thing I have done with this - and it takes some real finagling - is escorts without people around them. they auto-complete to so you put their nav text in the thing they are going to. They would then leave when they arrive at their destination, to be spawned again later. See the first mission in All That Glitters 3.2 to see what I mean. its similar to what frozen burn mentioned above

 

Much simpler. You can just have them as bosses without any mobs around them set as an ally. Won't be your "ally," and follow you, but they will be on your side when the baddies do arrive. And really - they're individuals so why would they follow you anyway. 🙂

1. I'd probably put your five boss allies in the front and middle
2. Make Citadel an escort in the middle with something he wants you to click in the back - the objective on the glowie would be something like (Meet Citadel then click the glowie). The reason for the escort is he can say something when you meet him and something when you reach the glowie
3. The baddies spawn when you click the glowie in the back.
4. I would also make the baddies attacking 6 non required defendable objects in in the front and mid to load the base up with extra baddies since your boss allies will be around to take some of them on.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Ankylosaur

[cranebump]

Will using Cit as an escort in this way avoid the whole circular logic issue that sometimes causes scripting conflicts?

Edited October 19, 2023 by cranebump

[cranebump]

Just finished the ally mish. Picked up allies. Cit was a "prisoner" prior to the bait set. Then all hell broke loose. Handled it. Picked up Arc Flash and the MM. Ran into the enemy General on the way out. The team did a pretty good job wiping out stuff on its own. Allies were useful to deal with early ambushes. I was wondering why the general wasn't an objective, though.

Some of the crew early on.

 

P.S. One of the allies is a real dick.:-) (Oh, so you admit I'm right, etc.) Too bad I couldn't power crash him in the mouth.:-)

Edited October 21, 2023 by cranebump

[cranebump]

Finished the arc. Disposed of the bosses (ignored the patrols). That map's always a tough one due to visibility. Len aggroed one of the bosses and nearly disposed of them himself. I walked over and took out the minions. 

 

The only thing I might do is make boss objectives "boss only" defeats, rather than having to deal with the minions. They didn't fly away on me, but I can see something like that happening and maybe annoying some players. Overall, it looks clean and finished. Players who like taking out multiple mobs on open maps will enjoy the multitude of enemies. The ambush mish in the Praet tunnels was probably my favorite, since I had to think fast when the ambushes showed. Plus, one of the allies, Bargest, had such a long run to the exit, I kept picking him up as I went. He'd stop and say, "I smell something," and there'd be bad guys nearby, so it felt like he was scouting ahead. 🙂

Edited October 22, 2023 by cranebump

[Ultimo]

Lennox is my version of Lex Luthor, he's not the most pleasant sort.  Bargest is a hero (based on Wolverine), and I had him run ahead for exactly the reason you noted!  SO glad it worked.

I didn't make the bosses objectives, because the real objective is just to escape the base.  They're really just there for a bit of a bigger threat, and to trigger a certain event.

 

As it happens, all the bosses in all the missions ARE boss only defeats, but the game refuses to actually DO that.  It's particularly vexing in the finale, where Malephar keeps appearing early, before the boss objectives are actually finished (due to minions still hanging around).  I'm tweaking the final mission again to try and fix this problem, but it's being stubborn.

 

I'm glad you think it looks finished, I have only the one remaining question, regarding the difficulty of the bosses.  Are they too easy?  Too hard?  Too close to their inspirations?

[cranebump]

I wouldn’t say they were all easy, but my brute was never in danger. I think the boss that started with a K (I want to say Korax, but I honest,y don’t remember) could have been tough if I hadn’t stunned him with my energy melee.did that to him twice. Malephor lasted a long time, but never made much of a dent in my health. I was playing a 50 Brute with no incarnate abilities, but lots of IO sets.

[Ultimo]

Ya, I tried it on my L31 Sentinel last night and Malephar wasn't really a threat, as long as I kept my distance.  I'll have to tweak him for sure.

 

I don't like making enemies immune to controls because it kind of screws the Controllers and Dominators.  Instead, I try to pick power sets that let them recover from it in some way (eg. by healing).

[cranebump]

I don't think you need to tweak any of them, honestly. I didn't have settings cranked up all the way. Someone who wants the pain can always jack it up to +4/x8. I just did +0/x3. 

[Ankylosaur]

The only consistent way to get most things to be single, or boss-only in this case, is to make the map empty, AND the allies/guards empty, in my experience.

So then you have to get creative with how you populate if you don't want every encounter to have a boss. Usually that is a combo of destructible objects and patrols but ymmv