Arsenal Control? Dom or Troller?

[ccrob00]

This set interests me a lot. I have seen a lot of troller conversation about it but not much on the Dom side of things. It looks like it would pair well with Psi or another melee centric secondary.

[Hardboiled Hero]

  I haven't gotten too far on either, but I've tried a Arsenal/Arsenal dom up to level 26 and a Arsenal/traps 'troller up to level 22.  The Dom is just flat out more fun, but I suspect this is because of how the /traps set works.. it seems like it's powers have super long cooldowns.  I don't know 'trollers well enough to say what sets might be better though.  I have enough general experience with /FF to know that I would find that boring on a 'troller too.

 

  IMO, I think the reason we don't see much discussion of Ar/ yet is because it's clearly designed to pair with /Ar.. and that combo is fun enough.  I'm not sure all the number crunchers have had enough time to get to 50+ and do all the tests they want to do to start saying what the "best" mechanical pairings are.  Personally, I find Ar/ to be good enough that I would be willing to try pairing it with any assault power, but it works with /Ar and that's the most obviously thematic, so what's really to discuss until we get more solid numbers to analyze.

[SeraphimKensai]

I have a lvl 50+3 arsenal/sonic/ice domi that works really well. It's not the most tanky toon but it can shred mobs' resistances and hits fairly hard especially with a procbomb sleep grenade.

 

I can see the set working great with controllers as well, but I haven't tried one as of yet on the production servers.

[Shiva]

I just built out an Arsenal/Arsenal dominator this weekend and I have to say it's a lot of fun to play as a set. 

 

The toon's just up to 13 at this point, but I really enjoy the fact that you get a very cool set of different attacks/abilities right out of the gate. 

 

It's certainly not the struggle that low-end Traps players had to endure at low levels.

 

Even at this level, END is a struggle, so it requires you to play with that in mind. 

 

To this point I haven't struggled soloing radios or arc mishes by myself at +1.  The set also plays well with teams as you have ranged control and damage, so it's easy to play with a fast-moving team.  I've been surprised that I haven't had to go crazy with defense at this point.  With the sleeping gas and the cryo ray alone, it's been pretty easy to keep the bad guys at bay long enough to drop them with burst, my trusty shot gun, or even throwing knives.

 

I look forward to getting up the power tree a bit and getting creative with some IO sets. ;-)

 

I love playing doms, but I could see rolling with this set as a controller as well.

[tricon]

I have tried several char on the test server. Full IO and run them through a few missions, my baseline was the final dream doctor mission against incarnate Banished Pantheon at +4/x8. 

The enemy groups have some nasty npc like the Elder of Sorrow that will floor you def and can hit hard and the 2nd part has some groups that are spread out a little further so that a single aoe in the center dosen't hit everything, additional you enjoy fighting incarnate mobs so, your +45% def for normal content has still a big gap in it.

 

Arsenal Control is really fun against the groups, and runing */sonic */savage */rad */thorny are all within one minute at the end as a diference. exactly within this as a */trick arrow controller that was equipped with procs up to the nec.

 

I tried a traps controller that was just not my cup of tea, folded space works but it was nothing for me, as was arsenal assault. playing a huntsman has spoiled me.

 

 

So both work, the differences are just very pronounced at the beginning. Lvling a controler solo thought the content means a big IO investment. You can start with the p2w free vendor IOs then after lvl 10 you get access to more procs, and also later at lvl 20+. My savage dominator has still at lvl 35 up to 90% standard IOs with a few uniqure ones. 

Now at lvl 50 if you chase perma domination, the costs will not vary much between the two.

 

As a dominator you can do dmg from the beginning, even with SOs, as a controller not so much. So if you like it close up personal, go with a dominator, arsenal control can be low maintaince, drop smoke canister, liquid nitrogen and the smash them with your secondary. The trick arrow controller was playing full at range and has had to use a lot more skills.

 

 

At the very beginning it was also funny to see how blaster got defeated in Perez Park and you as a arsenal dominator/controller can kill the groups just with sleep gerande and liquid nitrogen and you basic attacks....

 

Both are fun and powerful, just pick you style and set you like

 

 

 

[Frosticus]

I fancy this set on doms as I think it can support a wide array of secondaries and playstyles.

 

 

[Vinceq98]

I though Dominators were going to be good but this set has so many pseudopets that dont actually differ in damage YET the controller version gets Containment damage still.  Liquid Nitrogen and sleep grenade do the same damage on both ATs but controllers can do 2x dmg from containment. Add it very aggressive secondaries with +dmg or -RES and my controller is actually outdamaging when it comes to clearing minions and lts. Heck even the pet does 2x more dmg for controllers. Bosses can slow you down but its not that far behind a dominator. Honestly have been floored by the success of Arsenal/TA and Arsenal/Storm. Absolute AOE monsters. 

[Frosticus]

I don't think that is accurate. Sleep nade should do way more base damage on a dom. Granted w/ containment it will hit a bit harder on a troller, but base is like 56 vs 30?

 

arse/storm and /ta are great pairings

[BZRKR]

+1 For Arsenal/Trick Arrow Controller. Mine is fun to play, and appreciated by teammates. I do use targeting binds to make the location AoE's single press powers.

 

I am brewing up an Arsenal/ Savage Dominator, and it looks like it will smoothly achieve perma-dom, and shooting a mob at range with controls and then Feral Charge-ing in to do melee attacks feels like it will be a good time.

 

 

[Vinceq98]

Sleep nade is broken right now. But you can verify in Character creation the damage values. The pseudopets from arsenal control do not inherent AT modifiers for damage. So the pet is worse on dominators and both liquid nitrogen and sleep nade are worse because they cant "crit". But then dominators have assault secondaries.

 

What Arsenal brings for Dominators is complete safety inside their control patches. Smoke Canister layered with Sleep Nade means you can just blast and blast without focusing much on CC. Bring down the bosses while your AOEs take care of the minions and Lts.

 

On character creation SLEEP NADE at lvl 50 shows 44.49 damage for Dominators. And Liquid Nitrogen shows 5 ticks of 52.83

Controllers have the same values except they also get Containment damage. 

 

Basically this set was undercooked by the devs. As evidenced by the constant bug fixes and bug introductions. This set has caused so much loss of time to patch things up for them. But still I am thankful because its current incarnation is a very strong control set. 

[tricon]

1 hour ago, Vinceq98 said:

Sleep nade is broken right now. But you can verify in Character creation the damage values. The pseudopets from arsenal control do not inherent AT modifiers for damage. So the pet is worse on dominators and both liquid nitrogen and sleep nade are worse because they cant "crit". But then dominators have assault secondaries.

 

What Arsenal brings for Dominators is complete safety inside their control patches. Smoke Canister layered with Sleep Nade means you can just blast and blast without focusing much on CC. Bring down the bosses while your AOEs take care of the minions and Lts.

 

On character creation SLEEP NADE at lvl 50 shows 44.49 damage for Dominators. And Liquid Nitrogen shows 5 ticks of 52.83

Controllers have the same values except they also get Containment damage. 

 

Basically this set was undercooked by the devs. As evidenced by the constant bug fixes and bug introductions. This set has caused so much loss of time to patch things up for them. But still I am thankful because its current incarnation is a very strong control set. 

 

IMO the dmg from the controller is another bug, somehow the mess not only witth the sleep grenade burst does dmg vs hold dmg but changed the numbers from controller to dominator.

 

@Frosticus has the numbers from City of Data, both live and beta server have a old patch as what we now have on live and there the numbers seem correct.

 

30.5856 points of Toxic damage (all affected targets)


30.5856 points of Toxic damage (all affected targets)

if (source>arch eq 'Controller') && (target.HasTag?(IncarnateBoss) || (target>kHeld > 0) || (target>kImmobilized > 0) || (target>kSleep > 0) || (target>kStunned > 0))

 vs

 

52.8297 points of Toxic damage (all affected targets)

 

The Dominator power there has 

 

52.8297 points of Toxic damage (all affected targets)

if (source>arch eq 'Controller') && (target.HasTag?(IncarnateBoss) || (target>kHeld > 0) || (target>kImmobilized > 0) || (target>kSleep > 0) || (target>kStunned > 0))

 

So my guess is somebody copy the power from there and mess up the older controller table

 

[Monkeyking]

Slotting Sleep Grenade for damage is a sucker's game regardless of AT. If you really want to do a bunch of damage with Sleep Grenade, the power is clearly designed around sticking a bunch of procs in there. The pro strat is 4 or 5 procs with a 60-80% activation rate. The damage component is separate from the cloud's pseudopet specifically for this reason. Likewise, Liquid Nitrogen functionally does zero damage no matter what you do with it; it only inflicts damage when an enemy is knocked down, and only a couple ticks at most (the standing back up animation does not count as knockdown).

 

Really, it ends up looking like Arsenal Control is much better in the hands of Dominators than Controllers. Normally, Dominators take a hit to control duration in exchange for having a secondary that does damage. Arsenal mostly uses pseudopets though, and a Dom's clouds last just as long as a Controller's. Tear Gas loses no strength in a Dom's hands.

 

This is probably why Tri-Cannon got Containment. The Tri-Cannon already vomits out a silly amount of damage. It's probably one of the deadliest control pets in the game right now, thanks to a really short recharge time on its gun, and Controllers get to double that. I don't know if that really evens the playing field, but it's kind of funny that it's the Controller version of the power that does big damage instead of the Dominator's.

[Frosticus]

Ya sleep nade looks bugged again. I havent been a fan of that power since it was a targetted aoe that dropped a patch.

 

It wasn't rolling procs particularly well when the switched the damage to a psuedo-pet, but admittedly I haven't tested that aspect again since they first changed it. Where are you getting 60-80% proc chance from?

 

All patch based controls last the same duration for doms and trollers (ice patch/earthquake/shadowfield etc). In truth a lot of the dom ones simply use the controllers version (ie earth patches), but all of the patches in arsenal (should) be using AT specific versions. If you look at smoke can trollers  get a stronger tohit debuff and the base duration of the confuse is a bit longer. It's only when domination is active that the dom version quickly surpasses.

 

 

[Carnifax]

On 3/13/2024 at 9:06 PM, Monkeyking said:

If you really want to do a bunch of damage with Sleep Grenade, the power is clearly designed around sticking a bunch of procs in there. The pro strat is 4 or 5 procs with a 60-80% activation rate.

Try it and parse it via my online parser. Because it's a pseudo it'll give you the procs as subpowers of itself so you'll see how often they go off. Beta is a good place, you can slot it how you like try it on target rich radios (x8) and on smaller settings. And/or test it in "AV like" fights using a pylon. 

 

Generally overall patches aren't the best for procs, unless they are weird ones like Volcanic Gases or Carrion Creepers. That said looking at the power on CoD I think damage procs will be good and Slow ones will work far less often (because the damage is a "direct" effect and the Sleep & Slow is a patch). 

 

So I reckon Posi, Bombardment & Jav are the way to go here along with some Acc/Recharge IOs. But that's just me theory-crafting. Haven't tried it to verify. 

 

Edited March 15 by Carnifax

[tricon]

On 3/15/2024 at 9:36 AM, Carnifax said:

Try it and parse it via my online parser. Because it's a pseudo it'll give you the procs as subpowers of itself so you'll see how often they go off. Beta is a good place, you can slot it how you like try it on target rich radios (x8) and on smaller settings. And/or test it in "AV like" fights using a pylon. 

 

Generally overall patches aren't the best for procs, unless they are weird ones like Volcanic Gases or Carrion Creepers. That said looking at the power on CoD I think damage procs will be good and Slow ones will work far less often (because the damage is a "direct" effect and the Sleep & Slow is a patch). 

 

So I reckon Posi, Bombardment & Jav are the way to go here along with some Acc/Recharge IOs. But that's just me theory-crafting. Haven't tried it to verify. 

 

 

Awesome parser, first time I have used it over the weekend. How the hell did I miss this one.

 

Sleep Grenade procs the damage powers less then the slow procs. So Ice Mistral's Torment and Impeded Swiftness do more damage then Positrons Blast and Bombardment.

 

The damage proc go off only after you hit the target, so do the slow procs, the later ticks proc only the slow procs.

 

 

Sleep Grenade	15.000	541.000	434.000	107.000	 80.000	48,701.600	44,426.960	4,274.640	77.600	231.770	69.178	18.000	25.000	20.267
Bombardment:     0.000	 49.000  49.000	 0.000	100.000	 3,856.240	 3,856.240	   0.000	77.600	131.440	 0.000	 0.000	 0.000	 0.000
Ice Mistral      0.000	 96.000	 96.000	 0.000	100.000	 8,066.890	 8,066.890	   0.000	77.600	109.060	 0.000	 0.000	 0.000	 0.000
Impeded Swift    0.000	101.000	101.000	 0.000	100.000	 8,483.620	 8,483.620	   0.000	77.600	109.060	 0.000	 0.000	 0.000	 0.000
Positron's Blas  0.000	 38.000	 38.000	 0.000	100.000	 2,948.800	 2,948.800	   0.000	77.600	 77.600	 0.000	 0.000	 0.000	 0.000
Reactive Interf  0.000	294.000	294.000	 0.000	100.000	 4,274.640	     0.000	4,274.640	 0.000	  0.000	 0.000	 0.000	 0.000	 0.000
Sleep Grenade    0.000	525.000	434.000	 91.000	 82.000	     0.000	     0.000	   0.000	 0.000	  0.000	 0.000	 0.000	 0.000	 0.000
Sleep .. Burst	 0.000	683.000	667.000	 16.000	 97.000	 21,071.410	21,071.410	   0.000	84.800	231.770	 0.000	 0.000	 0.000	 0.000

 

Edited March 18 by tricon