MM Pet Recall

[Troo]

23 hours ago, Lyone_Manes said:

That's great...but it seems silly to need to get other powers to help control the core aspect of the Class you're playing?

 

I am not against your idea but the statement quoted is how many archetypes leverage their core. Example: Having to take 2 of Boxing, Kick, Tough in order to get Weave.

 

In this case can't Teleport Target (combined Recall Friend/TP Foe) accomplish what you are looking for.

I believe it can relocate individual pets and henchmen as well as bring targets to the the party. Followed by Team Teleport for your whole group and Fold Space for enemies.

 

[Rudra]

6 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

 

You used to be able to teleport hostages iirc.

 

i dont play MM all that much 

perhaps pets sharing your travel power when they are near their controller might help?

or maybe formations of some sort?

When I checked my main, the ninjas all had the same (or slightly better) listed movement than my actual character. Bear in mind, I only had like either Sprint or Ninja Run turned on at the time. And yet, the pets still fell behind. And like by a good deal. I'm not sure what caused that other than maybe they waited too long before they started moving to catch up to me when I started moving away. So outside of like Super Speed or stacked running powers, pets should be able to keep up with the MM. But they don't.

 

As far as teleporting hostages goes? I think, not sure but think, that was disabled so players wouldn't just sneak to where the hostages are, target them, sneak back to entrance, and then teleport them to the entrance and bypass everything.

 

As far as sharing travel powers from their PC? That would put the last nail in the coffins of Group Fly and Team Teleport.

 

The simplest solutions I've found so far are Teleport Target to yank pets back to you (unless they manage to get critically stuck in terrain), Assemble the Team to yank all your pets (and any teammates) to you, and unsummoning followed by re-summoning the pets as needed. I would very much like for MM pets to at least keep pace with the MM when only using Sprint or Ninja Run or Athletic Run or Beast Run, but from their combat attributes window in the game, they already should be doing so.

[Lyone_Manes]

59 minutes ago, Troo said:

 

I am not against your idea but the statement quoted is how many archetypes leverage their core. Example: Having to take 2 of Boxing, Kick, Tough in order to get Weave.

 

In this case can't Teleport Target (combined Recall Friend/TP Foe) accomplish what you are looking for.

I believe it can relocate individual pets and henchmen as well as bring targets to the the party. Followed by Team Teleport for your whole group and Fold Space for enemies.

 

Thing is, you're talking about Boxing/Kick as being equal to Teleport Target. In order for all the other ATs to fly, they only need fly. For them to Teleport, they only need Teleport. For us to recall our Minions we need to take Teleport Target. We need to take 2 of Hover/Air Superiority/Fly...or 2 of Teleport Target/Combat Teleport/Teleport just to be able to use Teleport or Fly on our Minions. Boxing/Kick may not be awesome, but they are attacks you can still use pretty consistently and is a single "Skill Point" invested. We need 1 invested just to efficiently -use- our Minions...and another to be able to teleport inefficiently with them...Or 2 more 2 be able to Fly with with AND Teleport Target for the Recall. So at -least- 2 Skill Slots invested in things that serve no real purpose and have no consistent use beyond enabling the better use of core mechanics.

 

I would still want the recall -without- the existing Skill Slot tax...because no one else needs to spend a skill point just to use their core AT Mechanics consistently. I just want to keep up with my damn team. Sure I can dismiss and re-summon...but by the time I've done that the fight is basically already over...and I get to start over. Just making Manual Recall lets me actually participate more consistently.

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, Lyone_Manes said:

Thing is, you're talking about Boxing/Kick as being equal to Teleport Target. In order for all the other ATs to fly, they only need fly. For them to Teleport, they only need Teleport. For us to recall our Minions we need to take Teleport Target. We need to take 2 of Hover/Air Superiority/Fly...or 2 of Teleport Target/Combat Teleport/Teleport just to be able to use Teleport or Fly on our Minions. Boxing/Kick may not be awesome, but they are attacks you can still use pretty consistently and is a single "Skill Point" invested. We need 1 invested just to efficiently -use- our Minions...and another to be able to teleport inefficiently with them...Or 2 more 2 be able to Fly with with AND Teleport Target for the Recall. So at -least- 2 Skill Slots invested in things that serve no real purpose and have no consistent use beyond enabling the better use of core mechanics.

 

I would still want the recall -without- the existing Skill Slot tax...because no one else needs to spend a skill point just to use their core AT Mechanics consistently. I just want to keep up with my damn team. Sure I can dismiss and re-summon...but by the time I've done that the fight is basically already over...and I get to start over. Just making Manual Recall lets me actually participate more consistently.

If you're going the Teleport pool route, there are advantages to it. By grabbing Teleport Target, you gain the ability to recall stuck pets, yank stuck targets out of their cover, recall teammates to you, and yank targets out of difficult areas reducing the amount of mobs that come charging out to kill you. Teleport itself gets cheaper if you use it in rapid succession and it will get you anywhere you want extremely quickly. Teleport Team lets you move all your pets with you.

 

If you're going the Flight pool route, it also has advantages. Hover gives your character more defense at low cost. Fly gives you the advantage of flight, letting you bypass entire zones without the added complication of targeting your destination like Teleport requires. And Group Fly lets you move your pets with with. And if your pets are ranged, they can sit up out of melee range of your enemies just raining death down on them.

 

So you get a benefit from all your power selections in both those pools. Even if you opt for different power selections to get to Group Fly or Team Teleport.

[Lyone_Manes]

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

If you're going the Teleport pool route, there are advantages to it. By grabbing Teleport Target, you gain the ability to recall stuck pets, yank stuck targets out of their cover, recall teammates to you, and yank targets out of difficult areas reducing the amount of mobs that come charging out to kill you. Teleport itself gets cheaper if you use it in rapid succession and it will get you anywhere you want extremely quickly. Teleport Team lets you move all your pets with you.

 

If you're going the Flight pool route, it also has advantages. Hover gives your character more defense at low cost. Fly gives you the advantage of flight, letting you bypass entire zones without the added complication of targeting your destination like Teleport requires. And Group Fly lets you move your pets with with. And if your pets are ranged, they can sit up out of melee range of your enemies just raining death down on them.

 

So you get a benefit from all your power selections in both those pools. Even if you opt for different power selections to get to Group Fly or Team Teleport.

Niche use, yes. And requires forcing all MMs to go Teleport just to be able to recall their Pets to be able to use them consistently in groups...One at a time. So once again...doesn't really help with the issue at hand? The auto-Recall isn't working...this is my suggestion to fix that broken mechanic that they're supposed to already have.

[Troo]

I hear ya @Lyone_Manes. I'll agree that the pathing isn't always great for pets. A lot of quality of life improvements have been made, MMs included. So things could be worse.

 

Much of the game is choices and consequences.

 

Thanks for making your suggestion.

[Rudra]

6 minutes ago, Lyone_Manes said:

Niche use, yes. And requires forcing all MMs to go Teleport just to be able to recall their Pets to be able to use them consistently in groups...One at a time. So once again...doesn't really help with the issue at hand? The auto-Recall isn't working...this is my suggestion to fix that broken mechanic that they're supposed to already have.

START vendor sells Assemble the Team. It doesn't go away after you buy it, yanks all your pets to you at once, and costs no power choices.

 

(Edit: And I agree the MM pet auto-recall ability needs to be fixed. Among other things.)

 

Edit again: So you understand where I am coming from, I would rather something that is broken be fixed than get a workaround built and handed out. MM pet auto-recall is broken. At the very least unstable or unreliable. That should be fixed, not ignored with a band-aid handed out to the players.

Edited April 19 by Rudra

[Lyone_Manes]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

START vendor sells Assemble the Team. It doesn't go away after you buy it, yanks all your pets to you at once, and costs no power choices.

But isn't cheap or easy for new people to get. It's cheap to many players because many have been around awhile and have like 30 million sitting around to do whatever with...or have a 50 to go farm it quick...or whatever. So only vets are allowed to have limited usefulness of a thing that will help with the problem once every however long the delay on it is? (Usually 30 minutes for those iirc?)

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, Lyone_Manes said:

But isn't cheap or easy for new people to get. It's cheap to many players because many have been around awhile and have like 30 million sitting around to do whatever with...or have a 50 to go farm it quick...or whatever. So only vets are allowed to have limited usefulness of a thing that will help with the problem once every however long the delay on it is? (Usually 30 minutes for those iirc?)

You can actually get it for free, but yeah, only after 12 hours of leading a team. And yes, it is usable once per half hour.

[Lyone_Manes]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

You can actually get it for free, but yeah, only after 12 hours of leading a team. And yes, it is usable once per half hour.

I think, overall, the simplest reason I feel it's needed as simply a Pet Command:

 

A Brute doesn't need to get a START power to use Fury in a group. A Tank doesn't need to get a START power to use their shields in a group. A Stalker doesn't need a START power to use Hide in a group. A Defender doesn't need a START power to be able to offer support to Players in a group.

 

I need a START power to in-consistently use my pets on my MM in a group.

[tidge]

18 minutes ago, Lyone_Manes said:

I need a START power to in-consistently use my pets on my MM in a group.

 

This may be an experience problem, as experience demonstrates this is not the case.

[Rudra]

24 minutes ago, Lyone_Manes said:

I think, overall, the simplest reason I feel it's needed as simply a Pet Command:

 

A Brute doesn't need to get a START power to use Fury in a group. A Tank doesn't need to get a START power to use their shields in a group. A Stalker doesn't need a START power to use Hide in a group. A Defender doesn't need a START power to be able to offer support to Players in a group.

 

I need a START power to in-consistently use my pets on my MM in a group.

Differences in experience then. I haven't had any problems with using my pets while in a group. A fast moving team leaves me sans pet support for a little bit as my pets play catch up, which it would be nice if they didn't need to play catch up, but the MM's core ability of Supremacy works just fine in and out of teams.

 

Here is the issue I have with the OP. Yes, pets lag behind and MMs rely on their pets for a lot. Especially their damage output. NPCs including pets have difficulty navigating maps, particularly stairs, which further slows them down on some maps. Yes, I would like for my pets to be with me as I move, especially on fast moving teams. However, the addition of a teleport pet to my character command takes away from the powers we have in the game specifically for that. Especially since we already have a game mechanic that is supposed to automatically recall our pets to us when the distance between our character and pets gets too large. I would rather that mechanic be fixed so that the distance is a known value rather than a variable range that may not even apply and pet AI or pathing be improved so the pets actually move with the MM and not get stuck on going up or down stairs. Not just for MMs, but also for escort NPCs, Controller/Dominator pets, Crabberminds, and active Lore pets. MMs need help, but at least to me, the biggest issue is a shared problem. Fix that and MMs should have much less trouble with their pets.

 

Edited April 19 by Rudra
Edited to correct "out" to "our". And again to correct "ahve" to "have".

[tidge]

21 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Differences in experience then. I haven't had any problems with using my pets while in a group. A fast moving team leaves me sans pet support for a little bit as my pets play catch up, which it would be nice if they didn't need to play catch up, but the MM's core ability of Supremacy works just fine in and out of teams.

 

 I find that MMs are the AT that require me to change my play style and attitude the most depending on if I am on a mission team or running solo. No surprise, it's not because the henchmen don't "keep up" with a fast moving team. "Fast moving teams" have been blamed for a wide variety of player grief from all sorts of ATs.

[Rudra]

29 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

 I find that MMs are the AT that require me to change my play style and attitude the most depending on if I am on a mission team or running solo. No surprise, it's not because the henchmen don't "keep up" with a fast moving team. "Fast moving teams" have been blamed for a wide variety of player grief from all sorts of ATs.

That's fair. Though I tend to approach teams on my MMs as if they were my pets. So I find very little difference between being solo or on teams while on my MMs other than the number of pets I have to keep an eye on and support. As for MM pets not keeping up with fast moving teams, there is a small window of difference. Solo, I move fast enough for my pets to stay with me most times. On fast moving teams, I have maybe a couple seconds of no pets depending on how far we moved from the last fight. Usually, the complaints I hear about MMs and fast moving teams revolve around that window between fight start and pet arrival depending on distance traveled to next fight. (Edit: Or the MM character himself/herself/themselves/itself having to play catch up if they summon replacement pets.)

 

Even so, game NPC pathing needs work, and that should help greatly with complaints about MM pets not keeping up.

Edited April 19 by Rudra

[Lyone_Manes]

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

Differences in experience then. I haven't had any problems with using my pets while in a group. A fast moving team leaves me sans pet support for a little bit as my pets play catch up, which it would be nice if they didn't need to play catch up, but the MM's core ability of Supremacy works just fine in and out of teams.

 

Here is the issue I have with the OP. Yes, pets lag behind and MMs rely on their pets for a lot. Especially their damage output. NPCs including pets have difficulty navigating maps, particularly stairs, which further slows them down on some maps. Yes, I would like for my pets to be with me as I move, especially on fast moving teams. However, the addition of a teleport pet to my character command takes away from the powers we have in the game specifically for that. Especially since we already have a game mechanic that is supposed to automatically recall our pets to us when the distance between our character and pets gets too large. I would rather that mechanic be fixed so that the distance is a known value rather than a variable range that may not even apply and pet AI or pathing be improved so the pets actually move with the MM and not get stuck on going up or down stairs. Not just for MMs, but also for escort NPCs, Controller/Dominator pets, Crabberminds, and active Lore pets. MMs need help, but at least to me, the biggest issue is a shared problem. Fix that and MMs should have much less trouble with their pets.

 

 

So here's where we disagree: You want them to fix the existing mechanic...I don't, honestly, think that's an option and feel that if you're trying to say that it "Takes away" from Teleport Target...it's only MMs who have to do this on a Power available to every AT, so it should NOT be taking away from existing powers, if the only reason you took it is because it helps move your Pets around, I'd say that simply proves the point I've been making, and if you say 'it's not the only reason', even if it was a large reason...and the reason you think it 'takes away' from the Power, that still is a problem. Teleport Target's usefulness shouldn't be diminished by not being a useful way to move pets around. I, also, don't think "fixing" the mechanic is likely to result in much change...the issue is the pathing and such is going to always be problematic. This solution requires the least effort, and the most immediate results. Meaning they can spend time on other far more important and actually fixable things.

 

(Side-note: I really wish there was a "Carry" command for escort NPCs where you can freeze all your offensive powers in order to "carry" the NPC. Then you don't need to worry about trying to fix something that is probably not fixable...you're moving yourself. PLUS...it's very appropriate for the game. Both hero and villain side.)

Edited April 19 by Lyone_Manes

[Laucianna]

I don't play a Mastermind so this is going from an outside PoV, but could it not just be simple to bake into the summon power the ability to summon any that are alive to you? That way you don't have to dismiss all your pets, resummon them all, buff them all, whilst the rest of the team have moved 1-2 packs ahead, but if your minions are stuck and you use the minion summon power it pulls them to you with their current buffs still active?

I've seen some comments about using teleport target, ATT, incan but to me, each of those comes with it's own issues: Teleport Target has a 2 second cast time per mob, plus it's recharge. ATT has a 30min cooldown. Incan will teleport not just your team but your entire league too, MM's already get enough hate for group fly, imagine the hate for being incanned around the map 😄 

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, Lyone_Manes said:

 

So here's where we disagree: You want them to fix the existing mechanic...I don't, honestly, think that's an option and feel that if you're trying to say that it "Takes away" from Teleport Target...it's only MMs who have to do this on a Power available to every AT, so it should NOT be taking away from existing powers, if the only reason you took it is because it helps move your Pets around, I'd say that simply proves the point I've been making, and if you say 'it's not the only reason', even if it was a large reason...and the reason you think it 'takes away' from the Power, that still is a problem. Teleport Target's usefulness shouldn't be diminished by not being a useful way to move pets around. I, also, don't think "fixing" the mechanic is likely to result in much change...the issue is the pathing and such is going to always be problematic. This solution requires the least effort, and the most immediate results. Meaning they can spend time on other far more important and actually fixable things.

 

(Side-note: I really wish there was a "Carry" command for escort NPCs where you can freeze all your offensive powers in order to "carry" the NPC. Then you don't need to worry about trying to fix something that is probably not fixable...you're moving yourself. PLUS...it's very appropriate for the game. Both hero and villain side.)

That's the thing though. Fixing AI pathing is every bit as important, I'd actually say more important, than fixing the MM's pet auto-recall. The AI pathing problem affects MMs, Controllers, Dominators, some VEATs, and everyone that has to escort an NPC. Fixing that would go farther for MMs than fixing the auto-recall ability and would significantly reduce the need for the auto-recall ability or your proposed command.

[Lyone_Manes]

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

That's the thing though. Fixing AI pathing is every bit as important, I'd actually say more important, than fixing the MM's pet auto-recall. The AI pathing problem affects MMs, Controllers, Dominators, some VEATs, and everyone that has to escort an NPC. Fixing that would go farther for MMs than fixing the auto-recall ability and would significantly reduce the need for the auto-recall ability or your proposed command.

I agree....I just think it's an unrealistic expectation. It would require WAY too much time dedicated to fix the issue there. If they are working on this, cool...but this is a reasonable answer until it -is- fixed. It'd be equally fine if it was a Setting-option..."Automatic Recall" or "Manual Recall"...so no one is FORCED to use the manual option.

[Rudra]

3 minutes ago, Lyone_Manes said:

I agree....I just think it's an unrealistic expectation. It would require WAY too much time dedicated to fix the issue there. If they are working on this, cool...but this is a reasonable answer until it -is- fixed. It'd be equally fine if it was a Setting-option..."Automatic Recall" or "Manual Recall"...so no one is FORCED to use the manual option.

I understand where you are coming from and I admit the OP would be useful. (It being a command would prevent it being a forced option anyway, so no need to worry over that in my opinion.) And if the devs decide to go with the OP, my MMs with Teleport Target and Assemble the Team still have their other uses for those powers. I'm just going to leave it at while your suggestion works as a band-aid, it sits poorly with me as a maintainer because it leaves the underlying problem unaddressed.

[Lyone_Manes]

24 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I understand where you are coming from and I admit the OP would be useful. (It being a command would prevent it being a forced option anyway, so no need to worry over that in my opinion.) And if the devs decide to go with the OP, my MMs with Teleport Target and Assemble the Team still have their other uses for those powers. I'm just going to leave it at while your suggestion works as a band-aid, it sits poorly with me as a maintainer because it leaves the underlying problem unaddressed.

That's totally fair, and I -do- agree whole-heartedly. Tbh...if it could be fixed, I wouldn't care one way or the other about this Recall option. 😛 It'd still be nice, just for pure QOL and no real Mechanical/AI benefit.