Agorazium Posted September 7 Share Posted September 7 (edited) I've wanted to make this combo work for a while but found it boring and on the weaker side. Decided to try again now that Liquefy is a usable power and it feels a lot better, but I think the build could be improved. The downside of Sonic is still there - it's not great for IO sets so I'm still quite far away from perma-PA (17 seconds without FF Recharge procs). I'm not really sure where I can squeeze more recharge in without dropping a bunch of powers. I dropped Spectral Terror on purpose. It's nice in low-level content but once PA, Flash and Liquefy are all slotted up it doesn't see much use since Liquefy in particular just does it all better. I have been enjoying Force of Will for a better attack chain and more AOE damage but I anticipate that'll have to go if I want perma-PA. Hero ControllerBuild plan made with Mids' Reborn v3.7.5 rev. 21 ────────────────────────────── Primary powerset: Illusion Control Secondary powerset: Sonic Resonance Pool powerset (#1): Leadership Pool powerset (#2): Force of Will Pool powerset (#3): Speed Pool powerset (#4): Flight Epic powerset: Energy Mastery ────────────────────────────── Powers taken: Level 1: Blind A: Thunderstrike: Accuracy/Damage 3: Thunderstrike: Damage/Endurance 3: Thunderstrike: Accuracy/Damage/Endurance 5: Thunderstrike: Damage/Endurance/Recharge 5: Unbreakable Constraint: Chance for Smashing Damage 7: Apocalypse: Chance of Damage(Negative) Level 1: Sonic Siphon A: Invention: Accuracy Level 2: Deceive A: Coercive Persuasion : Confused 9: Coercive Persuasion : Confused/Recharge 11: Coercive Persuasion : Confused/Recharge/Accuracy 11: Coercive Persuasion : Recharge/Accuracy 13: Coercive Persuasion : Confused/Endurance 13: Coercive Persuasion : Contagious Confusion Level 4: Sonic Barrier A: Unbreakable Guard: Resistance 15: Unbreakable Guard: Resistance/Endurance Level 6: Sonic Haven A: Unbreakable Guard: Resistance 15: Unbreakable Guard: Resistance/Endurance Level 8: Flash A: Superior Will of the Controller: Accuracy/Control Duration 17: Superior Will of the Controller: Control Duration/Recharge 17: Superior Will of the Controller: Endurance/Recharge 19: Superior Will of the Controller: Accuracy/Control Duration/Endurance 33: Superior Will of the Controller: Accuracy/Control Duration/Endurance/Recharge 33: Superior Will of the Controller: Recharge/Chance for Psionic Damage Level 10: Superior Invisibility A: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed 19: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Endurance Level 12: Maneuvers A: Red Fortune: Defense/Endurance 21: Red Fortune: Defense/Recharge 21: Red Fortune: Endurance/Recharge 23: Red Fortune: Defense/Endurance/Recharge 23: Red Fortune: Defense 25: Red Fortune: Endurance Level 14: Tactics A: Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control: To Hit Buff/Recharge/Endurance 34: Gaussian's Synchronized Fire-Control: To Hit Buff/Endurance Level 16: Disruption Field A: Invention: Endurance Reduction Level 18: Phantom Army A: Expedient Reinforcement: Accuracy/Recharge 25: Expedient Reinforcement: Accuracy/Damage 27: Expedient Reinforcement: Damage/Endurance 27: Expedient Reinforcement: Accuracy/Damage/Recharge 29: Expedient Reinforcement: Endurance/Damage/Recharge 29: Expedient Reinforcement: Resist Bonus Aura for Pets Level 20: Sonic Dispersion A: Impervium Armor: Resistance/Endurance 31: Impervium Armor: Resistance 31: Impervium Armor: Resistance/Endurance/Recharge 31: Impervium Armor: Resistance/Recharge 33: Gladiator's Armor: TP Protection +3% Def (All) Level 22: Group Invisibility A: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed Level 24: Mighty Leap A: Blessing of the Zephyr: Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range 34: Blessing of the Zephyr: Knockback Reduction (4 points) Level 26: Phantasm A: Sovereign Right: Accuracy/Damage 36: Sovereign Right: Damage/Endurance 36: Sovereign Right: Accuracy/Damage/Endurance 36: Soulbound Allegiance: Chance for Build Up 50: Sudden Acceleration: Knockback to Knockdown Level 28: Project Will A: Thunderstrike: Accuracy/Damage 34: Explosive Strike: Chance for Smashing Damage 37: Thunderstrike: Damage/Endurance 37: Thunderstrike: Accuracy/Damage/Endurance 37: Thunderstrike: Damage/Endurance/Recharge Level 30: Liquefy A: Cloud Senses: ToHit Debuff 39: Cloud Senses: Accuracy/ToHitDebuff 39: Cloud Senses: Accuracy/Recharge 39: Cloud Senses: ToHit Debuff/Endurance/Recharge 40: Cloud Senses: Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge 40: Cloud Senses: Chance for Negative Energy Damage Level 32: Hasten A: Invention: Recharge Reduction 40: Invention: Recharge Reduction Level 35: Power Blast A: Thunderstrike: Accuracy/Damage 42: Thunderstrike: Damage/Endurance 42: Thunderstrike: Accuracy/Damage/Endurance 42: Thunderstrike: Damage/Endurance/Recharge 43: Force Feedback: Chance for +Recharge Level 38: Temp Invulnerability A: Steadfast Protection: Resistance/+Def 3% 43: Impervium Armor: Resistance 43: Impervium Armor: Resistance/Endurance Level 41: Energy Torrent A: Positron's Blast: Accuracy/Damage 45: Positron's Blast: Damage/Endurance 45: Positron's Blast: Damage/Range 45: Positron's Blast: Accuracy/Damage/Endurance 46: Positron's Blast: Chance of Damage(Energy) 46: Bombardment: Chance for Fire Damage Level 44: Wall of Force A: Positron's Blast: Accuracy/Damage 46: Positron's Blast: Damage/Endurance 48: Positron's Blast: Damage/Range 48: Positron's Blast: Accuracy/Damage/Endurance 48: Positron's Blast: Chance of Damage(Energy) 50: Bombardment: Chance for Fire Damage Level 47: Hover A: Luck of the Gambler: Defense/Increased Global Recharge Speed Level 49: Sonic Repulsion A: Force Feedback: Chance for +Recharge 50: Sudden Acceleration: Knockback to Knockdown ────────────────────────────── Inherents: Level 1: Containment Level 1: Brawl (Empty) Level 1: Sprint (Empty) Level 2: Rest (Empty) Level 1: Swift (Empty) Level 1: Hurdle (Empty) Level 1: Health A: Miracle: +Recovery 7: Panacea: +Hit Points/Endurance Level 1: Stamina A: Performance Shifter: EndMod 9: Performance Shifter: Chance for +End Level 24: Takeoff https://api.midsreborn.com/build/download/FoOoIZGyHsSDf614 Edited September 7 by Agorazium Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uun Posted September 7 Share Posted September 7 Replace one of the Thunderstrike sets with Apocalypse. Swap Red Fortune in Maneuvers for LOTG Drop the resist bonus piece from Phantom Army and move the Soulbound %BU from Phantasm Slot Phantasm with 4x Expedient Reinforcement plus the KB>KD Why are you skipping Spectral Wounds? Much better DPA than Project Will or Power Blast. Recharges in Hasten should be +5. Uuniverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agorazium Posted September 8 Author Share Posted September 8 17 hours ago, Uun said: Replace one of the Thunderstrike sets with Apocalypse. Swap Red Fortune in Maneuvers for LOTG Drop the resist bonus piece from Phantom Army and move the Soulbound %BU from Phantasm Slot Phantasm with 4x Expedient Reinforcement plus the KB>KD Why are you skipping Spectral Wounds? Much better DPA than Project Will or Power Blast. Recharges in Hasten should be +5. Thanks! Re: Spectral Wounds, the only time I'm ever spamming my ST chain is against AVs really, and with the healing I assumed it would be lower damage over time than the other two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxzero Posted September 22 Share Posted September 22 (edited) On 9/8/2024 at 3:03 PM, Agorazium said: Thanks! Re: Spectral Wounds, the only time I'm ever spamming my ST chain is against AVs really, and with the healing I assumed it would be lower damage over time than the other two. You would be right. Spectral Wounds it a very weak attack except as a set mule. It has poor proc options, does not get full Containment damage not to mention the heal back. Weaken Resolve with 3x damage procs and a -res proc is fine and it helps the rest of your powers do much more damage. Edited September 22 by Maxzero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wimbochismo Posted September 22 Share Posted September 22 2 hours ago, Maxzero said: You would be right. Spectral Wounds it a very weak attack except as a set mule. It has poor proc options, does not get full Containment damage not to mention the heal back. Weaken Resolve with 3x damage procs and a -res proc is fine and it helps the rest of your powers do much more damage. This is an additional PSA to never skip Spectral Wounds as part of a single target attack chain. Partially discounting if you have the build flexibility to proc heavily. Slotted with a full dmg set, it's one of the highest dpa powers available to Controller's. If you include the healback in every case, it is 50.16-19.57=30.59 dmg. This is also the Containment dmg that is being added. Cast Arcanatime is 1.32s which gives a dpa around 23.17 Compare this to other, similar attacks that you may want to put a full dmg set in. Those that are sub 8s recharge and not very proccable. Fire Blast dpa 22.11 Project Will dpa 17.39 Ice Blast dpa 16.25 Power Blast dpa 16.55 Now the fun part is that the healback is always a flat -19.57 and doesn't scale with added dmg. It also takes 10s for the healback to occur, so if you can kill something in ~10s you can look at the dmg as 50.16 which is a dpa of 38 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uun Posted September 22 Share Posted September 22 2 hours ago, Maxzero said: You would be right. Spectral Wounds it a very weak attack except as a set mule. It has poor proc options, does not get full Containment damage not to mention the heal back. Weaken Resolve with 3x damage procs and a -res proc is fine and it helps the rest of your powers do much more damage. Spectral Wounds, after the heal back, does the same damage as every other controller T1 attack except Lift and Levitate. It gets full containment damage, it just doesn't get it on the damage that heals back. More importantly, the heal-back isn't effected by enhancements. Slotted for ED max damage, while the base and containment damage increase from 80.75 to 154.45, the heal-back stays at 19.57. SW happens to have a short activation time, giving it solid DPA of 102.18 slotted for ED max damage, after heal-back and including Containment. Weaken Resolve, while accepting 3 %dmg procs, has a long activation time. If all 3 procs go off, DPA is only 95.92, still lower than SW. Slotted for ED max damage and including containment, DPA is 61.66 for Project Will and 64.55 for Power Blast. 2 Uuniverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxzero Posted September 22 Share Posted September 22 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Uun said: Spectral Wounds, after the heal back, does the same damage as every other controller T1 attack except Lift and Levitate. It gets full containment damage, it just doesn't get it on the damage that heals back. More importantly, the heal-back isn't effected by enhancements. Slotted for ED max damage, while the base and containment damage increase from 80.75 to 154.45, the heal-back stays at 19.57. SW happens to have a short activation time, giving it solid DPA of 102.18 slotted for ED max damage, after heal-back and including Containment. Weaken Resolve, while accepting 3 %dmg procs, has a long activation time. If all 3 procs go off, DPA is only 95.92, still lower than SW. Slotted for ED max damage and including containment, DPA is 61.66 for Project Will and 64.55 for Power Blast. Yeah but we all know Trollers are all about procs. Spectral Wounds has only 2 procs available and 1 of them is highly contested and unique. Weaken Resolve also does -7.5% resist which benefits all your damage in addition if you need a Ach Heel deliver (90% proc chance) that's another -20 all res and that's game. Edited September 22 by Maxzero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uun Posted September 22 Share Posted September 22 3 minutes ago, Maxzero said: Yeah but we all know Trollers are all about procs. Spectral Wounds has only 2 procs available and 1 of them is highly contested and unique. Weaken Resolve also does -7.5% resist which benefits all your damage. If you need a Ach Heel deliver thats another -20 all res and that's all she wrote. An Illusion controller is very much NOT all about procs. 1 Uuniverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area Man Posted September 22 Share Posted September 22 6 hours ago, Wimbochismo said: This is an additional PSA to never skip Spectral Wounds as part of a single target attack chain. Partially discounting if you have the build flexibility to proc heavily. Slotted with a full dmg set, it's one of the highest dpa powers available to Controller's. If you include the healback in every case, it is 50.16-19.57=30.59 dmg. This is also the Containment dmg that is being added. Cast Arcanatime is 1.32s which gives a dpa around 23.17 Compare this to other, similar attacks that you may want to put a full dmg set in. Those that are sub 8s recharge and not very proccable. Fire Blast dpa 22.11 Project Will dpa 17.39 Ice Blast dpa 16.25 Power Blast dpa 16.55 Now the fun part is that the healback is always a flat -19.57 and doesn't scale with added dmg. It also takes 10s for the healback to occur, so if you can kill something in ~10s you can look at the dmg as 50.16 which is a dpa of 38 A long time ago, I wrote an Illusion/Radiation Controller guide on the Live Forums in which I recommended a strategy for using Spectral Wounds and maximizing your damage. You can find that guide here:https://web.archive.org/web/20120905042613/http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=141225 Under Strategies and Discussions: Maximizing your Damage, I explained a strategy to maximize your damage by (a) setting up a quick attack chain of Blind-Spectral Wounds-APP Blast-Spectral Wounds (B-SW-Bl-SW), and (b) focus your attacks first on taking out minions and then Lieutenants, before attacking the bosses or AVs. Why? If you kill low level foes quickly, the Illusory Damage doesn't have a chance to heal back. While you reduce the numbers of foes, your pets can focus on the tougher targets, drawing their aggro away from you. When all the low level foes are gone, you can focus on taking down the tough ones in relative safety. To get the attack chain, you need a fast recharging blast, and I argue that Fire is the best, but Ice is next best. With these, you can spam the B-SW-Bl-SW attack chain quickly. My guide had all kinds of details and strategies for Illusion. Although there new set options to get Perma-PA, most of the info in the Guide still applies today. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxzero Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 10 hours ago, Uun said: An Illusion controller is very much NOT all about procs. Sure it is. Blind is the primary damage often running 6 procs. BU proc in PA. Knockback damage proc in Phantasm. You can even proc up Spectral Terror but you usually use sets. Without reliable Containment base damage for Illusion Trollers is a much lower priority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uun Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 11 hours ago, Maxzero said: Sure it is. Blind is the primary damage often running 6 procs. BU proc in PA. Knockback damage proc in Phantasm. You can even proc up Spectral Terror but you usually use sets. Without reliable Containment base damage for Illusion Trollers is a much lower priority. Illusion is typically built to achieve perma-PA. You get far more damage out of PA than you do from your personal attacks, even with %dmg procs. Slotting should focus on set bonuses that provide global recharge. Can you also work procs in? Absolutely, but I'm not trading a recharge bonus in Blind for 6 %dmg procs. Uuniverse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxzero Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Uun said: Illusion is typically built to achieve perma-PA. You get far more damage out of PA than you do from your personal attacks, even with %dmg procs. Slotting should focus on set bonuses that provide global recharge. Can you also work procs in? Absolutely, but I'm not trading a recharge bonus in Blind for 6 %dmg procs. Making a proc bomb out of your single target hold is pretty much standard for any serious endgame Troller build due to the lack of good ST attacks for Trollers. Blind is one of the better ones for this since it's animation time is on the faster end plus it's cooldown is 1 second longer the normal ST holds giving it better proc rates. My Blind for example does 400 damage an activation. That's not counting buffs, any random Containments or -res on target. Recharge bonus are not really too hard to get especially if you have access to some KB attacks for FF +recharge to supplement it. Its why Marine goes so well with Illusion. You would far better off making Blind the damage and Spectral Wounds the set mule if you take it. Edited September 23 by Maxzero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosticus Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 Spec wounds is fine. The healback is a drop in the bucket. We still love PA and it has lots of healback that kicks in after 5 seconds vs 10. I will take spec wounds over something like arcane bolt in a heartbeat. Spec wounds can slip into small attack chain gaps and the damage is instant hit compared to the corpse blasting of arcane. (As an example). Sometimes you have to make build choices though. My ill/Marine dropped spec and ends up using whitecap and brine in my st chain. That isn't always optimal, but you only have so many powers available. Earth/Psi Dom - AV killer Arsenal/Sav Dom - AV Killer Poison - a guide to the most deadly poisons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxzero Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 4 hours ago, Frosticus said: Spec wounds is fine. The healback is a drop in the bucket. We still love PA and it has lots of healback that kicks in after 5 seconds vs 10. I will take spec wounds over something like arcane bolt in a heartbeat. Spec wounds can slip into small attack chain gaps and the damage is instant hit compared to the corpse blasting of arcane. (As an example). Sometimes you have to make build choices though. My ill/Marine dropped spec and ends up using whitecap and brine in my st chain. That isn't always optimal, but you only have so many powers available. That's my point though, it is a low priority power that is easy to replace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosticus Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 Maybe. It gets used a ton on my ill/cold/stone which is a st monster. I'd like to have it on my ill/Marine/mace, cause brine is so so to spam against AVs, but it came down to that or the patron spider. I picked the latter. That choice weakens me in lower level content like penny Yin tho. As for an ill/sonic I'm not sure what attack I'd replace it with, the power pool attacks are meh and you generally want 3 (at least) st attacks to make a chain. Earth/Psi Dom - AV killer Arsenal/Sav Dom - AV Killer Poison - a guide to the most deadly poisons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxzero Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 41 minutes ago, Frosticus said: Maybe. It gets used a ton on my ill/cold/stone which is a st monster. I'd like to have it on my ill/Marine/mace, cause brine is so so to spam against AVs, but it came down to that or the patron spider. I picked the latter. That choice weakens me in lower level content like penny Yin tho. As for an ill/sonic I'm not sure what attack I'd replace it with, the power pool attacks are meh and you generally want 3 (at least) st attacks to make a chain. Ironically Spectral Wounds is at its worst in Illusion. It's fighting with Blind over the Ragnarok proc and Illusion does not have the Containment to take advantage of the high base damage. It would be top notch in Earth Control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wimbochismo Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 1 hour ago, Maxzero said: Ironically Spectral Wounds is at its worst in Illusion. It's fighting with Blind over the Ragnarok proc and Illusion does not have the Containment to take advantage of the high base damage. It would be top notch in Earth Control. Blind is a mag 3 Hold which sets up Containment. It also happens to do a 2ft radius Sleep. If you mean easy access to aoe Containment, then in some of the secondary's mentioned there's powers like Liquefy and Choking Cloud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxzero Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 4 hours ago, Wimbochismo said: Blind is a mag 3 Hold which sets up Containment. It also happens to do a 2ft radius Sleep. If you mean easy access to aoe Containment, then in some of the secondary's mentioned there's powers like Liquefy and Choking Cloud. Hold does not work on Boss or higher (without stacking) which is what you most want to CC. 2ft sleep? Come on man be realistic. Illusion is designed around not having Containment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosticus Posted September 24 Share Posted September 24 10 hours ago, Maxzero said: Illusion is designed around not having Containment. exactly. I've never once cared about containment on any of my illusion trollers (cold and marine) Which is why I appreciate the increased base damage of the power and the fact it has low containment damage is not of concern to me. Most bosses die well before the healback kicks in, not that it matters once you factor in all the +dam and -res, it's just not a consideration for me. It's rare trollers get an early direct attack. The other 6 second options are lift and levitate. I personally prefer spec wounds over either of those, even with lift having been buffed with the distortion proc simply because the damage is so delayed. Earth/Psi Dom - AV killer Arsenal/Sav Dom - AV Killer Poison - a guide to the most deadly poisons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxzero Posted September 25 Share Posted September 25 8 hours ago, Frosticus said: exactly. I've never once cared about containment on any of my illusion trollers (cold and marine) Which is why I appreciate the increased base damage of the power and the fact it has low containment damage is not of concern to me. Most bosses die well before the healback kicks in, not that it matters once you factor in all the +dam and -res, it's just not a consideration for me. It's rare trollers get an early direct attack. The other 6 second options are lift and levitate. I personally prefer spec wounds over either of those, even with lift having been buffed with the distortion proc simply because the damage is so delayed. It's fine at low levels sure but I find it lacks come endgame. If you have nothing else to fill your ST attack chain fine but for me it's usually one of the first cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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