Leaving Praetoria

[TheMoneyMaker]

When you exit Praetoria, you have to choose the hero or villain alignment as you move over to the less morally ambiguous reality and it had me wondering, is that really the best choice? Wouldn't a switch to Rogue or Vigilante be a smoother transition, and from there if you want to be wholeheartedly red or blue, then you go through the tip missions and switch alignment normally or visit Nul the Gull in Pocket D? The Rogue/Vigilante options kind of fit the mentality of "back home." Instead, when you leave the morally ambiguous world, you have to go straight into all hero or all villain and then switch out again if you want to play both sides. Alternatively, maybe all 4 choices Hero/Vigilante/Rogue/Villain should be offered when making your exit. You put more work in playing through on gold side to get to 20 than you do to get to the alignment mission as a hero or villain.

 

I considered posting this in the Suggestions section, but it's less a suggestion and more just generally asking the general opinion on the whole thing.

[Darmian]

55 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

When you exit Praetoria, you have to choose the hero or villain alignment as you move over to the less morally ambiguous reality and it had me wondering, is that really the best choice? Wouldn't a switch to Rogue or Vigilante be a smoother transition, and from there if you want to be wholeheartedly red or blue, then you go through the tip missions and switch alignment normally or visit Nul the Gull in Pocket D? The Rogue/Vigilante options kind of fit the mentality of "back home." Instead, when you leave the morally ambiguous world, you have to go straight into all hero or all villain and then switch out again if you want to play both sides. Alternatively, maybe all 4 choices Hero/Vigilante/Rogue/Villain should be offered when making your exit. You put more work in playing through on gold side to get to 20 than you do to get to the alignment mission as a hero or villain.

 

I considered posting this in the Suggestions section, but it's less a suggestion and more just generally asking the general opinion on the whole thing.

Vigilante or Rogue does make more sense in general but the tone of the time of when you leave, the events, are pitched at just before the Praetorian War, and you're being asked to choose which MAJOR side you want to join, and those that have the technology to get you across are either Red or Blue.  Where you go after that, that's your choice, but storywise you're signing up to that.  

 

Personally I think you should have an option to stay.  Ok, you CAN stay, but it's not offered in the same way as the push to leave.  

Edited November 8 by Darmian

[TheMoneyMaker]

True, there are pushing you to one side or the other but going across to the hero side as a Vigilante works because you're picking the good side but still have some of that willing to bad stuff when needed attitude. If you chose to commit to full on Hero alignment, then that could be a choice to make after getting settled. Would make more sense just like you can't go from Villain straight to Hero with the alignment missions; you have to work through it from Villain to Rogue and then to Hero.

[Rudra]

9 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

True, there are pushing you to one side or the other but going across to the hero side as a Vigilante works because you're picking the good side but still have some of that willing to bad stuff when needed attitude. If you chose to commit to full on Hero alignment, then that could be a choice to make after getting settled. Would make more sense just like you can't go from Villain straight to Hero with the alignment missions; you have to work through it from Villain to Rogue and then to Hero.

No, it really doesn't. When you leave Praetoria, it is to help the heroes defend Primal Earth against the impending Praetorian invasion or to seize power for yourself while there is still time before the invasion. As a Vigilante alignment, while you are still ostensibly going to help defend Primal Earth against the invasion, you may not since you may think murdering other threats is the better choice. So when they send you to join the heroes, it is as a Hero. As a Rogue, while you are still ostensibly seeking power, you are more focused on the profit and opportunity available rather than the absolute power. Further, those missions are available at level 20. At level 20, alignment tips become available. And unless you use Null the Gull, player characters have to do 10 alignment tips and then a morality mission to change from Hero to Vigilante or Villain to Rogue at that level. So your Praetorian has to do the same thing. Either do the 10 tips and the morality to change alignment or go talk to Null the Gull. It's about fairness.

[TheMoneyMaker]

Eh, I just think it's too much a leap. Like you say you can help heroes as a vigilante and you can seek power as a rogue, so you can join a side without fully committing to it. Why does leaving force you to commit entirely? Like I'm sure the respective sides you have to pick from would prefer you be pure good or evil, but it just doesn't resonate with me. "I gotta pick a side if I'm leaving Praetoria, so I'd better commit until I change my mind." Lame. The original devs set up this whole alignment changing thing and force you to go right to one of the main two to start instead of choosing from all four.

 

Sorry, you're not going to sell me on the original vision of it. I think it's a flawed outlook.

[Trickshooter]

Story-wise, Primal Earth is mostly black and white, either hero or villain, until the introduction of our Praetorian characters coming over. That's why swapping to Vigilante or Rogue was something you couldn't do till level 20 and also why Praetorian characters come to Primal Earth at level 20. Within the greater story of the game, that is when our characters might start to question the grey areas.

 

For Praetorian characters, they don't have the same concept of 'Heroes are good' and 'Villains are bad' on their Earth. They have Resistance and Loyalists, two much more ambiguous "alignments" that each have a spectrum of good and bad people. They choose Hero or Villain when they come to Primal Earth because they believe one or the other better aligns with their morals and/or methods. They don't really understand the reality of that choice until they come to Primal Earth and find out, and from there they are then free to pursue Vigilante or Rogue alignments. 

 

 

You can of course decide that your character isn't like that at all and would know that they're going to go be a Vigilante when they first step foot in to Paragon City, but the story wasn't designed that way and you'll have to use a work around like Null the Gull to 'roleplay' around that.

 

[Rudra]

2 hours ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

Eh, I just think it's too much a leap. Like you say you can help heroes as a vigilante and you can seek power as a rogue, so you can join a side without fully committing to it. Why does leaving force you to commit entirely? Like I'm sure the respective sides you have to pick from would prefer you be pure good or evil, but it just doesn't resonate with me. "I gotta pick a side if I'm leaving Praetoria, so I'd better commit until I change my mind." Lame. The original devs set up this whole alignment changing thing and force you to go right to one of the main two to start instead of choosing from all four.

 

Sorry, you're not going to sell me on the original vision of it. I think it's a flawed outlook.

There is still the fairness aspect. The game does not let characters change their alignment from Hero or Villain until level 20 when they get the ability to get tip missions. And it takes them 10 tip missions plus the morality to go from Hero to Vigilante or from Villain to Rogue. (Unless they go talk to Null the Gull and have him quick change their alignment even if still level 1.) So for fairness, your Praetorian character gets sent to Primal Earth where (s)he/they/it must then choose whether to start as a Hero or Villain and progressively change just like every other character in the game. (Or go talk to Null the Gull and shortcut the change.) If your Praetorian would start their career on Primal Earth as a Rogue or Vigilante? Then you have to use the same option that every other player's character does for their characters that start as rogues and vigilantes. Go talk to Null the Gull and have him change it. Otherwise, you follow the game's presented story line.

[TheMoneyMaker]

18 hours ago, Rudra said:

There is still the fairness aspect. The game does not let characters change their alignment from Hero or Villain until level 20 when they get the ability to get tip missions. And it takes them 10 tip missions plus the morality to go from Hero to Vigilante or from Villain to Rogue. (Unless they go talk to Null the Gull and have him quick change their alignment even if still level 1.) So for fairness, your Praetorian character gets sent to Primal Earth where (s)he/they/it must then choose whether to start as a Hero or Villain and progressively change just like every other character in the game. (Or go talk to Null the Gull and shortcut the change.) If your Praetorian would start their career on Primal Earth as a Rogue or Vigilante? Then you have to use the same option that every other player's character does for their characters that start as rogues and vigilantes. Go talk to Null the Gull and have him change it. Otherwise, you follow the game's presented story line.

That's a weak argument. In fact, I wouldn't even call it an argument because you defeated it yourself by pointing out that anyone can change alignment at any time by going to Null the Gull. But what fair? What advantage does choosing Vigilante or Rogue upon leaving Praetoria grant to players? One could argue that the entirety of their time in Praetoria is the equivalent of working toward their alignment mission. So what if they get to make the choice at level 20 when Heroes and Villains only start getting the tip missions at 20? Heroes have the advantage of a much higher player participation to team with, so if you're going to talk fair then try to make that balance work.

[Rudra]

34 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

That's a weak argument. In fact, I wouldn't even call it an argument because you defeated it yourself by pointing out that anyone can change alignment at any time by going to Null the Gull. But what fair?

The fairness in that (unless you talk to Null the Gull to get around it), regular characters have to start as Hero or Villain alignment and are not allowed to change that alignment until they reach level 20 and then complete the requisite alignment and morality missions. Your character is transitioning from gold side to the regular game. That means your character is bound to follow the same rules as everyone else. So you start level 20 as a Hero or a Villain, and then work to change alignment. That is why the request(s) to be able to start the regular game as a Vigilante or Rogue was never accepted and implemented. So if you want your character to start as a Vigilante or Rogue after transitioning to Primal Earth and not follow the game's set up of doing tip missions starting at level 20, then you have to do the same thing players that want their characters red side or blue side to start as Vigilante or Rogue have to do. Go talk to Null the Gull. That fair.

 

  

34 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

What advantage does choosing Vigilante or Rogue upon leaving Praetoria grant to players?

The fact they can immediately go between red side and blue side. (Edit: Which means they can do both sides' content. Even if they need someone from the other side to be team leader running the missions. Something heroes and villains can't do.)

 

34 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

One could argue that the entirety of their time in Praetoria is the equivalent of working toward their alignment mission.

One could also argue that with what the Praetorians know about Primal Earth, the Praetorians going to Primal Earth would have absolutely no clue that there exists the ability to move between sides. All they saw of Primals were Arachnos with some rather murderous Destined Ones, and Longbow. They don't meet any rogues (edit: that can be identified as such). They don't meet any vigilantes (edit: that can be identified as such). And as the NPC briefing your character (if you speak with him) tells you, Primal Earth is a place of chaos where everyone is fighting everyone else. So you are picking a side and are going to be fighting everyone else either to help them set aside their differences and prepare for the invasion or to take advantage of their fighting to seize power. They don't even realize that there are characters that move between the sides to get anything done. So your choices are Hero and join the forces of Longbow et al to rally Primal Earth against the invasion and try to find peace between Primal Earth and Praetoria, or Villain and either work with Arachnos as the strongest current faction (red side) or seize power for yourself. That is the lore. That is explained in the go to Primal Earth mission.

 

34 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

So what if they get to make the choice at level 20 when Heroes and Villains only start getting the tip missions at 20?

Just like you can't arbitrarily be Resistance and Loyalist at will, but have to complete the gold side morality missions to change, you can't just be Vigilante or Rogue. Loyalist and Resistance do not exist as alignments blue side or red side. And if you are going to be able to do blue side content or red side content, or even be able to get access to their zones, you have to lose the Praetorian alignment and get a regular alignment. The mission is just there to change you to a valid alignment to be able to play blue side or red side. And that means the alignment any other character that starts there would be. Hero or Villain. With Vigilante and Rogue needing to be unlocked. Either by the game's standard alignment system progression or by Null the Gull. So you get to choose which alignment your character would have started as had that character started as a Primal Earth character. Hero or Villain. Because those are the only alignment choices for starting characters (in Primal Earth). If that does not suit you? Null the Gull is right there at Pocket D.

 

34 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

Heroes have the advantage of a much higher player participation to team with, so if you're going to talk fair then try to make that balance work.

Heroes also have the advantage of a much higher player participation to team with over red siders. What's your point? (Edit: And the unwillingness of players to play red side or gold side has no bearing on this discussion anyway.)

 

Edited November 9 by Rudra

[TheMoneyMaker]

  

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

The fairness in that (unless you talk to Null the Gull to get around it), regular characters have to start as Hero or Villain alignment and are not allowed to change that alignment until they reach level 20 and then complete the requisite alignment and morality missions. Your character is transitioning from gold side to the regular game.

 

And praetorian characters have to start as Loyalist or Resistance and cannot become vigilantes and rogues until after they leave praetoria, not even with Null the Gull's help. So there you go, the red/blue side have an unfair advantage over gold. How you gonna fix that?

 

  

1 hour ago, Rudra said:

So you start level 20 as a Hero or a Villain, and then work to change alignment. That is why the request(s) to be able to start the regular game as a Vigilante or Rogue was never accepted and implemented. So if you want your character to start as a Vigilante or Rogue after transitioning to Primal Earth and not follow the game's set up of doing tip missions starting at level 20, then you have to do the same thing players that want their characters red side or blue side to start as Vigilante or Rogue have to do. Go talk to Null the Gull. That fair.

Praetorian characters aren't just starting the game, though. yes they're starting on Primal Earth, but they've put 20 (possibly more) levels in already and that should be taken into account instead of treating them like level 1 new characters.  So, sorry, but you have failed to convince me. Your logic is flawed and your attempts to cling to status quo because that's what you deem is fair don't change my mind in the least.

 

 

 

 

 

[Rudra]

43 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

And praetorian characters have to start as Loyalist or Resistance and cannot become vigilantes and rogues until after they leave praetoria, not even with Null the Gull's help. So there you go, the red/blue side have an unfair advantage over gold. How you gonna fix that?

Praetorian characters start as neither and make their choice about which alignment they are at the end of the tutorial. And when they transition to blue side or red side, they have to make the same choice any other character has to make: are they going blue side which defaults them to Hero or red side which defaults them to Villain.

 

43 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

Praetorian characters aren't just starting the game, though. yes they're starting on Primal Earth, but they've put 20 (possibly more) levels in already and that should be taken into account instead of treating them like level 1 new characters.  So, sorry, but you have failed to convince me. Your logic is flawed and your attempts to cling to status quo because that's what you deem is fair don't change my mind in the least.

Correct, they aren't starting the game fresh. However, they are starting either blue side or red side. And when you make that choice, you are either Hero to go blue side or Villain to go red side. After you get blue side or red side, then you can choose to be Vigilante or Rogue. Either by doing the tips that become available starting at level 20 or by talking to Null the Gull to shortcut it. Just like if you play through the Galaxy City tutorial you have to choose to either be a hero or a villain to get to the respective side, your Praetorian character, as part of gaining an alignment that will let him/her/them/it get blue side or red side, but not both, must choose to either be a Hero or a Villain. And after getting there, if the alignment does not fit your character, either do the tip missions or go talk to Null the Gull. Just like everyone else that sees their character as starting as a Vigilante or Rogue.

 

Edit: Face it, you aren't even picking an alignment in that mission. You are picking side accessibility.  And that defaults to Hero to go blue side or Villain to go red side.

 

Edited November 9 by Rudra

[TheMoneyMaker]

15 minutes ago, Rudra said:

they are starting either blue side or red side. And when you make that choice, you are either Hero to go blue side or Villain to go red side. After you get blue side or red side, then you can choose to be Vigilante or Rogue. Either by doing the tips that become available starting at level 20 or by talking to Null the Gull to shortcut it. Just like if you play through the Galaxy City tutorial you have to choose to either be a hero or a villain to get to the respective side, your Praetorian character, as part of gaining an alignment that will let him/her/them/it get blue side or red side, but not both, must choose to either be a Hero or a Villain. And after getting there, if the alignment does not fit your character, either do the tip missions or go talk to Null the Gull. Just like everyone else that sees their character as starting as a Vigilante or Rogue.

 

Edit: Face it, you aren't even picking an alignment in that mission. You are picking side accessibility.  And that defaults to Hero to go blue side or Villain to go red side.

 

And this is what I'm calling out as not feeling right to me. you're looking at it through the lens of everyone must be treated "fairly" when that's clearly not even happening with Null the Gull at level 1 able to change alignments directly from Hero to Villain or vice versa without even jumping through the intermediary step, but goldsiders have to play through 20 levels and can't do outside content until they do leave, and don't get the choice to pick Rogue or Vigilante or opposite of whichever side the chose until they get to 20 and leave.

 

You're debating rules while I'm having a philosophical look at the issue. Different conversations and I'm not interested in the one you want, which is why I started it the way I did.

[Rudra]

24 minutes ago, TheMoneyMaker said:

And this is what I'm calling out as not feeling right to me. you're looking at it through the lens of everyone must be treated "fairly" when that's clearly not even happening with Null the Gull at level 1 able to change alignments directly from Hero to Villain or vice versa without even jumping through the intermediary step, but goldsiders have to play through 20 levels and can't do outside content until they do leave, and don't get the choice to pick Rogue or Vigilante or opposite of whichever side the chose until they get to 20 and leave.

 

You're debating rules while I'm having a philosophical look at the issue. Different conversations and I'm not interested in the one you want, which is why I started it the way I did.

...

 

Lore reasons:

Your Praetorian character has zero idea of what is going on in Primal Earth. The only Primals your character sees is either Longbow fighting you, Arachnos fighting you, and Arachnos' Destined Ones fighting you in the name of Arachnos. You will encounter Dark Watcher if you do the correct mission, but even he doesn't tell you that Primal Earth isn't just two factions waging war against each other. To the best of your character's knowledge, Primal Earth has Longbow and it has Arachnos. Longbow are 'heroes' and Arachnos are 'villains'. And you are sent to one faction or the other. So you go as a Hero or a Villain.

 

Your Praetorian character is briefed by either the Resistance or the PPD that the Primals are a chaotic mess, with two major factions. Everyone is fighting everyone else, and only the two major factions are sufficiently established to be of use to you and your goal of either preventing the war and forging peace between Primal Earth and Praetoria or helping you amass and seize power. The two major factions are Longbow and Arachnos. If you side with Longbow, you will be helping others as a Hero, showing the Primals that Praetorians are a benign presence that only wants peace between the two worlds and to help the Primals contain the rampant chaos afflicting their world. And if you side with Arachnos, it is to take control of them or seize power for yourself by other means. So you go as a Hero or a Villain.

 

Game mechanic reasons:

When you go to transition your character to the regular game, you have to choose whether you are going to go red side or blue side. Just like any other character getting access to those sides for the 1st time, you are only selecting zone and content access. Selecting to go blue side results in you being a Hero because that is the default alignment for being blue side. Selecting to go red side results in you being a Villain because that is the default alignment for being red side. You aren't choosing your alignment, you are choosing where you play. And that makes you a Hero or a Villain.

 

Fairness reasons:

Whenever a player makes a character, and it isn't a gold sider, they have to choose either Hero or Villain. (Because in order to access blue side or red side, we must be the correct alignment to be there.) Doesn't matter if you enter through the tutorial or you skip it and jump straight into the game. Alignment changes are not made available except as a Null the Gull thing until level 20. At which point in time they have to complete 10 alignment tips of the same alignment and then the morality mission to get the ability to change their alignment. So even if a player designs a character that starts as a Rogue or Vigilante, that is what that character always was even before starting play in the game, they have to make a Hero or a Villain first, then go talk to Null the Gull to become a Rogue or Vigilante before tackling their first mission so they can claim to have started as a Rogue or Vigilante.

 

So if you want your Praetorian character to "start" as a Rogue or Vigilante when they go Primal, then do the same thing every other Primal character that "starts" as a Rogue or Vigilante does. Go talk to Null the Gull in Pocket D to "start" as a Rogue or Vigilante. It's why he is there and willing to change your alignment regardless of character level. (I want to say that he used to not give that option until level 20, but then he was made able to do so even at level 1 because players were asking to be able to start as Rogue or Vigilante. I'm not sure that is the case, but that is what I think happened.) Talking to Null the Gull to be the alignment you want is not a huge burden on you.

[TheMoneyMaker]

Nah.