Random Presence Pool + Invention Enhancement Thought

[megaericzero]

Hello, everyone.

 

Bit of a slow Saturday at work.

I'll be honest: I didn't think about this idea more than a few minutes so I'm fully prepared to hear how half-baked / unworkable it is.

 

The idea was twofold:

1) try and accommodate the people who want Presence reworked

2) integrate the use of IOs to help with the changes to Presence while also expanding the precedence of IOs giving options to slightly alter effects at the cost of a slot (eg: KB2KD)

 

What I'm attempting to tackle:

(these are not my feelings; rather, what I heard other people say in past threads about Presence)

• Pacify and Provoke are in direct opposition to each other, so there's never a time you'd want to take both
• Given the above, you have to take Intimidate to access its own AOE version (Invoke Panic) or Unrelenting
• The Presence pool should incorporate a confuse effect somewhere

 

With that in mind...

PRESENCE POOL CHANGES

• remove Pacify and Provoke
• turn Provoke into single-target and rework its numbers (rech, duration, etc.)
• add Challenge back to the pool at tier 1
• shift Provoke, Intimidate and Invoke Panic up a tier each
  (Intimidate now no longer requires a prior power pick; Invoke Panic only requires one prior power pick)
• add Confuddle - a single-target confuse - at tier 4 (requiring two prior power picks; can be made partly AOE with Coercive Persuasion)

 

For those better served with a visual aid, the power table would change to this:

1.  Challenge
2.  Intimidate
3.  Invoke Panic
4.  Confuddle
5.  Unrelenting

 

NEW INVENTION ENHANCEMENTS

• Group Insult, a low-level set (10-20) whose final enhancement changes single-target taunt to AOE taunt with the tradeoff of applying a -recharge enhancement, causing the power it's slotted in to recharge slower
  (turns Challenge back into Provoke; can also be slotted by Scrappers to turn Confront into Provoke+)
• Failed Mockery, a mid-level set (25-40) whose final enhancement changes taunt into placate and is unique so only one can be slotted per build, and similar tradeoff of increasing its slotted power's recharge time
  (effectively turns Challenge or Confront into Pacify)
• Unforgivable Insolence, a high-level set (40+) whose final enhancement makes taunt/placate auto-hit and is unique so only one can be slotted per build
  (turns Provoke into Challenge; unfortunately, I don't think there's a way to get it to recognize the other two enhancements to make the other two PROC effects auto hit but that was originally the intent before further discussion on why that's bad anyway) (okay this one was a bad idea)

 

Alternatively, we could change Intimidate to a single-target (brain fart) remove Intimidate and make Invoke Panic single-target with tweaked values (second brain fart) remove Invoke Panic instead of Pacify and Provoke, and add an IO that changes single-target fear to AOE. I figured tackling the taunt/placate dichotomy was less disruptive, since fear is more wide-spread which may cause horrible unexpected consequences.

 

I haven't thought about things in-depth like how Confront recharging so quickly with the ST-to-AOE might let Scrappers accidentally step on Tankers'/Brutes' toes by rapid-stacking it.

 

If it works out, this could be the precedence for more "sacrifice a slot for a unique/modified effect" type IOs.

 

Anyway, that's the idea. Happy holidays, everyone.

Edited 4 hours ago by megaericzero

[Super Atom]

👀

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

With that in mind...

PRESENCE POOL CHANGES

• remove Pacify

As someone who takes powers from the Presence pool and uses Pacify (mostly on Blasters), I oppose the request to take away a power I am using.

 

10 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

turn Provoke into single-target
(or replace it with Challenge, for those familiar with the old version of this pool)

Provoke lacks the move to power user effect that Confront and Taunt have, has less range than Confront or Taunt, requires a ToHit check even for mobs rather than just players like Confront and Taunt, and takes 3 times longer to recharge than the ST Confront (being equal to the Tanker's Taunt for recharge). If Provoke is made into a ST power, absolutely no one will take it. (And I would respec out of it for it now being worthless to me.) (Edit: I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the reason why Challenge was replaced with Pacify was because given the choice of a ST taunt effect and an AoE taunt effect, no one took the ST version.)

 

Edited 11 hours ago by Rudra
Edited to add "requires a ToHit check even for mobs rather than just players like Confront and Taunt, ".

[megaericzero]

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Provoke lacks the move to power user effect that Confront and Taunt have, has less range than Confront or Taunt, and takes 3 times longer to recharge than the ST Confront (being equal to the Tanker's Taunt for recharge). If Provoke is made into a ST power, absolutely no one will take it. (And I would respec out of it for it now being worthless to me.)

Of course, number tweaking would be involved. I did also recognize that Challenge used to be part of this pool, so if the changes are so substantial that it should be renamed/replaced back to that power, by all means. Definitely don't just remove the AOE component, nerfing it. I'll edit that into the OP.

 

4 minutes ago, Rudra said:

As someone who takes powers from the Presence pool and uses Pacify (mostly on Blasters), I oppose the request to take away a power I am using.

 

*shrug* Flip-flopping it is also possible, but I'm sure the same will be said about Provoke, or any power. I did say the same about Intimidate in a prior thread when someone presented Invoke Panic as the "superior" version that the other should be nixed for.

Edited 11 hours ago by megaericzero

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

8 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Provoke lacks the move to power user effect that Confront and Taunt have, has less range than Confront or Taunt, and takes 3 times longer to recharge than the ST Confront (being equal to the Tanker's Taunt for recharge). If Provoke is made into a ST power, absolutely no one will take it. (And I would respec out of it for it now being worthless to me.)

Of course, number tweaking would be involved. I did also recognize that Challenge used to be part of this pool, so if the changes are so substantial that it should be renamed/replaced back to that power, by all means. Definitely don't just remove the AOE component, nerfing it. I'll edit that into the OP.

Why though? Why do you want to nerf a power that is already not as good as the Primary/Secondary AT equivalents?

 

  

18 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Alternatively, we could change Intimidate to a single-target

Intimidate already is a ST power.

 

Edited 11 hours ago by Rudra

[Super Atom]

Removing pacify for a better power, and adding a -range to the taunt is pretty much the most agreed upon "fix" for presence's woes without doing too much, though i like a lot of what you've got going on here in terms of new IO sets. You'll never please everyone though. Sometimes you have to make the hard changes in spite of complaints. It's why EM is higher tier now.

[megaericzero]

7 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Why though? Why do you want to nerf a power that is already not as good as the Primary/Secondary AT equivalents?

I'm not sure what you mean. I don't necessarily see AOE taunt as objectively superior to single-target.

 

Tangentially, I do have concerns about Confront spam now that I think about it, since that thing recharges super fast as a trade-off for being single-target. Maybe the taunt-to-placate IO would need an extra cost, like debuffing recharge time on its slotted power.

 

  

7 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Intimidate already is a ST power.

 

Brain fart/typo. Fixed in the OP.

Edited 11 hours ago by megaericzero

[Rudra]

16 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

21 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Why though? Why do you want to nerf a power that is already not as good as the Primary/Secondary AT equivalents?

I'm not sure what you mean. I don't necessarily see AOE taunt as objectively superior to single-target.

What makes the ST Confront superior to Provoke is that when you use it against an enemy that enemy will then move towards your character for the next 12 seconds unless rooted by attack animations, you can use it every 3 seconds before any recharge considerations, and it is guaranteed to hit the target unless the target is a PC. Provoke gets target mobs' attention for 8.24 seconds so it has a shorter duration than Confront (let alone Taunt with its 20 second duration), does not get them to move towards you, and can miss the target even if you have a 1x10⁷⁸% chance to hit because of the hit chance cap.

 

37 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

remove Intimidate and make Invoke Panic single-target instead of Pacify and Provoke, and add an IO that changes single-target fear to AOE.

The current advantage of Invoke Panic is that when you use it, for the next 8.344 seconds, every enemy within 20 feet (up to 10 targets) is too busy spending their time cowering in your presence to kill you. Handy for those times when you find yourself inside a building with no room to hover out of reach and the mobs are swarming you. So you are still talking about nerfing a power and not giving a reason why it needs to be nerfed.

 

Edit again:

 

37 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

NEW INVENTION ENHANCEMENTS

• Group Insult, a low-level set (10-20) whose final enhancement changes single-target taunt to AOE taunt
  (turns Provoke back into an AOE; can also be slotted by Scrappers to turn Confront into pseudo-Taunt)
• Failed Mockery, a mid-level set (25-40) whose final enhancement changes taunt into placate and is unique so only one can be slotted per build
  (effectively turns Provoke into Pacify; can also be slotted by Scrappers to turn Confront into pseudo-Placate)
• Unforgivable Insolence, a high-level set (40+) whose final enhancement makes taunt/placate auto-hit and is unique so only one can be slotted per build
  (turns Provoke into pseudo-Challenge; unfortunately, I don't think there's a way to get it to recognize the other two enhancements to make their effects auto hit but that was originally the intent)

I'm willing to bet you will never see these sets as presented because of how the final enhancements in them work. Even Contagious Confusion does not change a power from ST to AoE. It adds an AoE effect, but the power itself is not changed. How is an enhancement supposed to change how a power itself works? Procs add effects, they don't change the power itself. That added effect can be a global buff, an added damage effect, or other added effect, but it cannot change how the power itself works. That doesn't seem to be something the game engine can do.

 

Edited 10 hours ago by Rudra
Edited to correct "and" to "than".

[megaericzero]

24 minutes ago, Rudra said:

What makes the ST Confront superior to Provoke is that when you use it against an enemy that enemy will then move towards your character for the next 12 seconds unless rooted by attack animations, you can use it every 3 seconds before any recharge considerations, and it is guaranteed to hit the target unless the target is a PC. Provoke gets target mobs' attention for 8.24 seconds so it has a shorter duration than Confront (let alone Taunt with its 20 second duration), does not get them to move towards you, and can miss the target even if you have a 1x10⁷⁸% chance to hit because of the hit chance cap.

 

I'm still not quite sure what you mean by nerfing Provoke, though. It already doesn't get the auto-hit or range debuff benefits that Confront and Taunt do. Neither did Challenge back in the day, as far as I'm aware. Turning Provoke into single-target and adjusting its duration/recharge ratio would just make it Challenge.

 

It is a nerf but largely inasmuch as taking out a component (being AOE) and then selling that component back as an enhancement slot tax.

24 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The current advantage of Invoke Panic is that when you use it, for the next 8.344 seconds, every enemy within 20 feet (up to 10 targets) is too busy spending their time cowering in your presence to kill you. Handy for those times when you find yourself inside a building with no room to hover out of reach and the mobs are swarming you. So you are still talking about nerfing a power and not giving a reason why it needs to be nerfed.

I was presenting this as an alternative to merging Pacify and Provoke. It would instead see the fear power (whichever name you want to go with - Intimidate or Invoke Panic) being single-target and selling its AOE component back as an IO. Again, a nerf inasmuch as a slot tax. I only suggested it because I foresaw pushback that two unique powers - a taunt and a placate - were being forced together instead of consolidating arguably redundant fears.

Edited 10 hours ago by megaericzero

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, megaericzero said:

remove

 

No.

[FupDup]

On one hand I get the logic of Pacify and Confront being opposites and never wanting to be taken together...

 

But on the other hand, Pacify does fulfill an important role as an easily accessible Placate power. The only other generic Placate is Misdirection, which is a T3 power with a very slow recharge time. Maybe Pacify could be moved to become an extra T1 choice for Concealment, but that might be stretching the definition of what constitutes a "stealth" power. 

 

I think the easy way around that issue is to just not arbitrarily limit ourselves to keeping pools at only 5 powers each. There are lots of neat ideas for more pool powers in existing pools, and we shouldn't have to play a zero sum game to get them (for example, I'd like a taunt aura in Presence as a second T2 choice). 

[megaericzero]

6 minutes ago, FupDup said:

But on the other hand, Pacify does fulfill an important role as an easily accessible Placate power. The only other generic Placate is Misdirection, which is a T3 power with a very slow recharge time. Maybe Pacify could be moved to become an extra T1 choice for Concealment, but that might be stretching the definition of what constitutes a "stealth" power. 

I had completely forgotten about Misdirection. Maybe in a world where the Stealth was made as good as it is now but Invisibility hadn't been made Infiltration, there would have been room to put Pacify there. But that would still constitute removing a power which:

20 minutes ago, Luminara said:

No

Oof. Fair point. Tell that to Challenge, which Pacify very specifically did that exact thing to.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, megaericzero said:

I'm still not quite sure what you mean by nerfing Provoke, though. It already doesn't get the auto-hit or range debuff benefits that Confront and Taunt do. Neither did Challenge back in the day, as far as I'm aware. Turning Provoke into single-target and adjusting its duration/recharge ratio would just make it Challenge.

Exactly. Challenge and Provoke both used to be in the Presence pool. Challenge was a weaker version of Provoke. So effectively turning Provoke into Challenge makes it weaker. And that is a nerf. And you already know this because in your post you also say:

 

1 hour ago, megaericzero said:

It is a nerf but largely inasmuch as taking out a component (being AOE) and then selling that component back as an enhancement slot tax.

And players complain about the Sudden Acceleration proc as is, decrying it as an enhancement tax. Which it isn't if players bother to slot more of the set. And here you are specifically proposing an enhancement tax to get back a power's current functionality in the name of applying a nerf you have already admitted you understand is one without giving any reason why the power should be nerfed in the first place.

 

25 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

46 minutes ago, Luminara said:

No

Oof. Fair point. Tell that to Challenge, which Pacify very specifically did that exact thing to.

When Challenge was removed, players still had Provoke, which was a better version of the same power for all intents and purposes. Removing Pacify gives players like me what to have that power's function? (Edit: And please don't say a theoretical enhancement from a set that does not exist to change a taunt to a pacify that we both know given how the game works most likely can't even be made with that function anyway.)

 

Edited 9 hours ago by Rudra
Edited again to remove superfluous "even".

[megaericzero]

14 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Exactly. Challenge and Provoke both used to be in the Presence pool. Challenge was a weaker version of Provoke. So effectively turning Provoke into Challenge makes it weaker. And that is a nerf. And you already know this because in your post you also say:

 

Were Challenge and Provoke the same in every way - magnitude, duration, etc. - except one was AOE? Genuine question. I never checked the numbers back then and COD doesn't have its info as far as I'm aware.

 

16 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Removing Pacify gives players like me what to have that power's function? (Edit: And please don't say a theoretical enhancement from a set that does not exist to change a taunt to a pacify that we both know given how the game works most likely can't even be made with that function anyway.)

See but that's part of the suggestion so... I'm gonna say "a theoretical enhancement from a set that does not exist to change a taunt to a pacify that [...]" The suggestion wasn't "and/or" - it was a concrete "and". If the latter is not possible, 100% nix the former.

 

19 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And players complain about the Sudden Acceleration proc as is, decrying it as an enhancement tax. Which it isn't if players bother to slot more of the set. And here you are specifically proposing an enhancement tax to get back a power's current functionality in the name of applying a nerf you have already admitted you understand is one without giving any reason why the power should be nerfed in the first place.

 

I understand it's a nerf in the form of slot taxing what is currently a base function of the power. If it makes it any better, we can inverse it - keep Provoke AOE but make an "aoe taunt to single target" IO but then Scrappers lose the functionality for Confront to become like Taunt, or else also having "ST taunt to AOE" is only useful for Confront. The reason I did it the way I did in the OP were:

* people complaining about having to take taunt or placate to reach ST fear

* people complaining about having to take taunt + placate or something + ST fear to get AOE fear

* giving people the option to have Challenge again, for those who want to be able to taunt but don't want to taunt the entire group

[Rudra]

15 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

I understand it's a nerf in the form of slot taxing what is currently a base function of the power.

No, it is a nerf in that you are specifically asking to take away a function a power currently has. That you are also proposing an enhancement that most likely can't work in the game that will give that function back has nothing to do with the fact you are requesting a power be nerfed. And you still are not giving a reason why it even needs to be nerfed.

 

15 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

If it makes it any better, we can inverse it - keep Provoke AOE but make an "aoe taunt to single target" IO but then Scrappers lose the functionality for Confront to become like Taunt,

Scrappers get a ST taunt effect because they need to be able to draw aggro to them as a melee AT and they also need to not be competing with Brutes and Tankers for that. We already have threads talking about how Brutes don't have a role and need to find one that doesn't have them stepping on either Scrapper or Tanker toes. And now you want to add an enhancement that lets Scrappers taunt groups of enemies like they are Brutes and Tankers, except with a much better recharge time on their taunt. You know what the difference between Brute Taunt and Scrapper Confront is if there is an enhancement to make Scrapper Confront AoE? Scrapper Confront will still have a base 3 second recharge to the Brute's 10 second recharge. That's it. Why bother playing a Brute any more since Scrappers can now even taunt like Brutes. And that is on the assumption that somehow your proposed enhancement can be made to turn a ST attack into an AoE since not even KB to KD procs actually change how the power works but instead reduce the effect of a function of that power low enough to act like another effect. And then the inevitable: we can turn one attack power, even if it does 0 damage on its own, into an AoE, so why can't we do the same to the other ST attack powers?

 

Edited 9 hours ago by Rudra
Edited to add missing "to".

[megaericzero]

11 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And you still are not giving a reason why it even needs to be nerfed.

You and I see it every differently. I see it as pretty much indistinguishable from mere lip service to a nerf rather than a legitimate nerf. Otherwise, see the response about keeping Provoke and adding an(other) IO set to make "AOE taunt into single target."

 

11 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And that is on the assumption that somehow your proposed enhancement can be made to turn a ST attack into an AoE since not even KB to KD procs actually change how the power works but instead reduce the effect of a function of that power low enough to act like another effect. And then the inevitable: we can turn one attack power, even if it does 0 damage on its own, into an AoE, so why can't we do the same to the other ST attack powers?

Skipping the Brute debate since there's already an active thread about that currently. I did mention I have strong concerns about Confront specifically because of its recharge time and how to potentially address that.

 

I'll bite on the "how" because I already thought about that: Coercive Persuasion can already apply AOE confuse by PROC (or accuracy check?). While the enhancement is presented as "ST taunt to AOE taunt," mechanically we can make it whatever Coercive Persuasion is - but for taunt - and just crank its chance/accuracy as high as possible. If it's an accuracy check, it would still have a chance to miss in Confront but that is probably a positive for balance reasons.

Edited 8 hours ago by megaericzero

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

You and I see it every differently. I see it as pretty much indistinguishable from mere lip service to a nerf rather than a legitimate nerf.

Agreed. If I see something being weakened, then to me, it is a nerf. That a bandaid is also being provided to undo that means nothing to me. Especially when I have high confidence that said bandaid can't even exist. So I'll drop this.

 

7 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

 

I'll bite on the "how" because I already thought about that: Coercive Persuasion can already apply AOE confuse by PROC (or accuracy check?).

Coercive Persuasion's proc adds its own AoE confuse effect that has a chance to trigger. It does not change the slotted confusion power from ST to AoE, it adds its own AoE effect to the power.

 

9 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

While the enhancement is presented as "ST taunt to AOE taunt," mechanically we can make it whatever Coercive Persuasion is - but for taunt - and just crank its chance/accuracy as high as possible.

While adding an AoE taunt effect as a proc can actually happen in the game as opposed to changing a ST attack to AoE, you still run into the Scrappers now do everything a Brute can do just with slightly lower damage resist caps if powers that are intended to be ST can now be AoE even if only via added chance for AoE taunt effect on top of standard taunt effect. Especially if the ToHit/Accuracy is cranked as high as possible.

[Luminara]

13 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Tell that to Challenge, which Pacify very specifically did that exact thing to.

 

Citing an example of something you didn't like being done as the thing to do doesn't support your position.

 

Nor would shitcanning Pacify "fix" the pool for the majority of people who avoid it, because Pacify isn't what's making them avoid it.  The Presence pool is disliked because it has three different status effects, none of which are synergistic, and players are required to take at least two non-synergistic powers in order to work up through the tiers.  They don't complement one another in any way, and the Taunt, when it works, actively opposes the goal of causing enemy action to pause momentarily... the pool's a clusterfuck.  That's why we ignore it.

And before you get any more attached to that Confuse you want, take a long, hard look at blasters' and masterminds' Possess in the new Dark Mastery APPs, which drops a shit-ton of debuffs (30% -Damage, -Defense, -Endurance, -ToHit, -Movement, -Special) on the caster.  For 30 seconds.  And after having been reported as a bug twice, it still hasn't been changed, nor anything said by the developers regarding this, implying that it's supposed to be that way.  You should understand the powers structuring of the game by now, with power pools being at the bottom, so you should also realize a power pool Confuse would have to be even worse.

 

So if you did succeed in having Pacify taken away from the players who use it (which would be a dick move), all you'd get in return would be an even less useful power.  You wouldn't be able to stack it with anything (unlike Pacify, which can be stacked with Misdirection), you wouldn't be able to stack it with itself (the APP Possesses don't), and you probably wouldn't even be able to survive after using it, since the self-debuffs would almost certainly be stronger.

 

Intimidate changed to be available at level 4 and Invoke Panic set to one power prerequisite so it wouldn't feel like deliberately hamstringing yourself when you went deeper into the pool.  That's all the Presence pool needs.

[megaericzero]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

Coercive Persuasion's proc adds its own AoE confuse effect that has a chance to trigger. It does not change the slotted confusion power from ST to AoE, it adds its own AoE effect to the power.

Which, since it can only be slotted in powers that accept confuse sets, achieves the goal. Unless we want to get into the nitty gritty of it having independent values on chance, magnitude, duration, being able to double on things that are already AOE, etc.

 

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

While adding an AoE taunt effect as a proc can actually happen in the game as opposed to changing a ST attack to AoE, you still run into the Scrappers now do everything a Brute can do just with slightly lower damage resist caps

I'm of the opinion that the largest problems for Brutes are the Tanker damage buff and Fury itself not being standout enough to separate them from Scrappers in either burst or sustain which, yeah, can cause them to be watered down to Scrappers who gave up crits to have Tanker health caps - not even tanker or median values - and worse damage multipliers. But, again, I'll leave the larger discussion for that thread.

 

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

Citing an example of something you didn't like being done as the thing to do doesn't support your position.

I'm normally an advocate or at least neutral on the cottage rule. I'm not a staunch believer that it's forbidden to use a method you disliked the result of to reverse the result, though.

 

Plus, I do think FupDup touched on something in mentioning the Presence pool.

 

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

And before you get any more attached to that Confuse you want, take a long, hard look at blasters' and masterminds' Possess in the new Dark Mastery APPs, which drops a shit-ton of debuffs (30% -Damage, -Defense, -Endurance, -ToHit, -Movement, -Special) on the caster.  For 30 seconds.  And after having been reported as a bug twice, it still hasn't been changed, nor anything said by the developers regarding this, implying that it's supposed to be that way.  You should understand the powers structuring of the game by now, with power pools being at the bottom, so you should also realize a power pool Confuse would have to be even worse.

Assuming it's not a bug, that sounds like a different discussion to have on the devs A) going overboard for fear Possess was too powerful for Blasters/Masterminds instead of just not giving it to them and B) obfuscating that information at least a little by not disclosing it in the description text. I'm not saying we can't discuss that; just that it sounds like an outlier rather than just assuming it's the baseline for future stuff.

 

  

3 hours ago, Luminara said:

So if you did succeed in having Pacify taken away from the players who use it (which would be a dick move)

I don't disagree it's a dick move, by the way. That's why I went to the effort of suggesting a way to get it back via IOs. I don't know how cherished Pacify is but I'm hoping it's not "absolutely must six slot to max-out the actual placate effect", whereas it would still be as good of a mule as it currently is since "threat" now covers both placate and taunt.

Edited 4 hours ago by megaericzero

[Rudra]

31 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

4 hours ago, Rudra said:

While adding an AoE taunt effect as a proc can actually happen in the game as opposed to changing a ST attack to AoE, you still run into the Scrappers now do everything a Brute can do just with slightly lower damage resist caps

I'm of the opinion that the largest problems for Brutes are the Tanker damage buff and Fury itself not being standout enough to separate them from Scrappers in either burst or sustain which, yeah, can cause them to be watered down to Scrappers who gave up crits to have Tanker health caps - not even tanker or median values - and worse damage multipliers. But, again, I'll leave the larger discussion for that thread.

Except that discussion is a large part of this discussion too. You can't just sweep something you don't want to discuss under the rug on the pretense that it is not related when the OP will very much impact how Scrappers and Brutes differ, by reducing that difference or further skewing player perception in favor of Scrappers over Brutes. Yes, it is strictly for the taunt portion of the OP and how two powers players using the meta don't even bother with, but it is still relevant.

 

I'm willing to accept that we simply disagree on a lot and move on, but not on this. Your proposal directly impacts how Brutes and Scrappers will be viewed. Tankers will still retain the benefits of a better AoE taunt with their -100 range effect for enemy movement, but now Brutes will have worse taunts than Scrappers with just a single enhancement being slotted. Especially since you seem set on the proc having a high chance to trigger and high accuracy to make sure it hits from what I have seen in your posts so far. Yes, the taunt duration for Brutes lasts roughly twice as long as Scrappers whereas the movement portion is the same, but Scrappers have less than 1/3 the recharge wait time as Brutes so they will get more benefit from their taunt effect. And even if you apply a self slow effect to the PC for having the enhancement, unless you have the enhancement apply a -75% recharge debuff, Scrapper Confront is still going to come out as the better taunt power after the enhancement.

 

Edit: And here is another thought: because it is a taunt enhancement set, that means it can still be slotted into Taunt as well. Which would be foolish to do since with your proposal for the enhancement to slow the slotted power it would murder Brutes' and Tankers' taunt powers, but it could still be done. So you are proposing an enhancement set whose sole purpose is to benefit Scrappers and you are willing to nerf Provoke to make the set appealing beyond Scrappers. (I know I said I would drop the nerf part, and I do apologize, but for this, it is relevant again.)

 

Edit again: Hells, another proposed set is completely worthless to Brutes, Scrappers, and Tankers except in PvP because their taunt effects are already autohit. So it looks to me like its sole purpose is to now make the taunt proc itself autohit. (Edit yet again: Actually, you specify in the OP that the autohit is intended for the procs but aren't sure it can. So it isn't a "seems" any more.) Even Placate is an authohit power.

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Rudra

[megaericzero]

6 minutes ago, Rudra said:

And even if you apply a self slow effect to the PC for having the enhancement, unless you have the enhancement apply a -75% recharge debuff, Scrapper Confront is still going to come out as the better taunt power after the enhancement.

That was actually exactly what I had in mind when mulling over potential recharge reduction - the IO would give it the AOE taunt proc but also come with a -howevermany% recharge "enhancement" to that power, forcing Confront to "become" Taunt so to speak. As to the accuracy/PPM, I was originally looking to assuage the concern that Confront was autohit and not maxing the PROC to match would be detrimental but, as I mulled over in one of the prior posts, that could be another balancing factor is that the AOE portion could still miss. The devil is in the details.

Edited 4 hours ago by megaericzero

[Rudra]

17 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

That was actually exactly what I had in mind when mulling over potential recharge reduction - the IO would give it the AOE taunt proc but also come with a -howevermany% recharge "enhancement" to that power, forcing Confront to "become" Taunt so to speak.

That doesn't help the situation any. Because you are now stating that your intent is to remove the difference between Scrappers and Brutes for their taunt effects. And I very much oppose that intent. (Edit: So Scrappers will get to do more damage, not reliant on building up a Fury bar to be competitive, have the same starting resists as Brutes, now get to have the same taunt power in every way using just the free enhancement slot the power comes with because you don't need to slot any endurance reduction or accuracy enhancements in Confront for it to be fully effective, and only lose 15% damage resist off their cap which saves them enhancements on resists for not needing to pursue that last 15%.)

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Rudra
Edited again to remove duplicate mention of starting resists.

[megaericzero]

18 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Edit: And here is another thought: because it is a taunt enhancement set, that means it can still be slotted into Taunt as well. Which would be foolish to do since with your proposal for the enhancement to slow the slotted power it would murder Brutes' and Tankers' taunt powers, but it could still be done. So you are proposing an enhancement set whose sole purpose is to benefit Scrappers and you are willing to nerf Provoke to make the set appealing beyond Scrappers. (I know I said I would drop the nerf part, and I do apologize, but for this, it is relevant again.)

 

Edit again: Hells, another proposed set is completely worthless to Brutes, Scrappers, and Tankers except in PvP because their taunt effects are already autohit. So it looks to me like its sole purpose is to now make the taunt proc itself autohit. (Edit yet again: Actually, you specify in the OP that the autohit is intended for the procs but aren't sure it can. So it isn't a "seems" any more.) Even Placate is an authohit power.

I think you and I, specifically, need to get our bearings again. Based on what was discussed so far - and I'll update the OP to reflect this in a moment:

For simplicity's sake, we're removing both Pacify and Provoke. We're putting Challenge back into the set at tier 1. (We're ignoring the fears and hypothetical confuse right now.) We then add two PROCs - one that adds a taunt AOE so Challenge can become Provoke or Confront can become pseudo-Taunt, one that removes taunt and adds placate so that Challenge and Confront can become Pacify. Neither effect is autohit anymore - that'll be one of the trade-offs for being dollar-store alternatives to Taunt and Placate. The taunt AOE PROC (and probably the placate PROC) apply a huge -recharge enhancement to the power they're slotted in, which further changes Challenge/Confront into Provoke/Pacify.

Yes, it is possible with this current iteration for a person to accidentally or purposely nerf their Taunt or Placate by slotting one of those PROCs without reading what they do.

 

3 minutes ago, Rudra said:

That doesn't help the situation any. Because you are now stating that your intent is to remove the difference between Scrappers and Brutes for their taunt effects. And I very much oppose that intent.

Brute Taunt is still autohit on the AOE portion.

(Also it's not my intent, though it is an unintended side effect. What's the difference? Intent would be malicious and deliberate, neither of which I was trying to be.)

[Rudra]

11 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

For simplicity's sake, we're removing both Pacify and Provoke. We're putting Challenge back into the set at tier 1.

Right. And that has the issues I have been mentioning. That you are taking pacify away from me and any other players that take and use it and you are removing a good AoE taunt for a ST taunt. Which is a giant middle finger to anyone using either of those powers. Just so you can have an enhancement that adds its own taunt AoE effect.

 

11 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Confront can become pseudo-Taunt

Which is still taking away one of the advantages Brutes have over Scrappers to be replaced with... nothing. If you have the proc's chance to fire and its chance to hit be as high as possible? That is a whole 5% chance of failing. Oh, the horror. Unless RNG is sticking it to you, you aren't going to be missing except for rare occasions. And then you have another enhancement whose sole purpose is to take even that 5% chance of failure away.

 

11 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

one that removes taunt and adds placate so that Challenge and Confront can become Pacify

There is no enhancement that can take an effect away from a power. City of Titans face-planted into that problem on a much newer game engine. They had to design their powers to be able to change based on what special enhancements were slotted. City of Heroes was not designed to do that. So you aren't going to be able to change a taunt into a pacify just by slotting an enhancement. (Edit: Null the Gull grants players a hidden power to prevent an unwanted power effect from affecting you, but even he doesn't change how Group Fly works. Just whether it can affect you the player asking him to not let it affect you.)

 

11 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

Brute Taunt is still autohit on the AOE portion.

If you have the accuracy as high as possible as you have already stated you want, then you are facing a laughable 5% chance of not hitting. With another proposed proc that takes even that away.

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Rudra

[megaericzero]

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

Which is still taking away one of the advantages Brutes have over Scrappers to be replaced with... nothing. If you have the proc's chance to fire and its chance to hit be as high as possible? That is a whole 5% chance of failing. Oh, the horror. Unless RNG is sticking it to you, you aren't going to be missing except for rare occasions. And then you have another enhancement whose sole purpose is to take even that 5% chance of failure away.

 

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

If you have the accuracy as high as possible as you have already stated you want, then you are facing a laughable 5% chance of not hitting. With another proposed proc that takes even that away.

Okay, I'll be clearer because I missed in in trying to get us on the same page again: it's not even a high hit percent / chance to occur anymore. It's just average. There's still a legitimate chance to miss. inb4 "but then it's useless" because only the extremes apply

 

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

There is no enhancement that can take an effect away from a power. City of Titans face-planted into that problem on a much newer game engine. They had to design their powers to be able to change based on what special enhancements were slotted. City of Heroes was not designed to do that. So you aren't going to be able to change a taunt into a pacify just by slotting an enhancement.

Genuinely curious how KB2KD works. My best guess is that it floors the knockback distance aspect. In our placate PROC, we could try reducing the magnitude or duration to such insanely low levels that it's only active for a single frame. We're approaching or crossing SCR territory by this point, though.