Null da Gull Knockback

[Tankshock]

13 hours ago, Snarky said:

3) people will complain about anything

 

his logic is irrefutable.

 

I mean, it's hard to argue with 3)
 

[ZacKing]

34 minutes ago, FupDup said:

In regards to procs, the only proc besides FFB that you can slot into Energy Blast is Explosive Strike: Chance for Smashing Damage.

 

Huh?  There are way more proc IOs you can slot in Energy Blast attacks.  Are you referring to a specific power in the set or the set as a whole?

[FupDup]

3 minutes ago, ZacKing said:

 

Huh?  There are way more proc IOs you can slot in Energy Blast attacks.  Are you referring to a specific power in the set or the set as a whole?

I'm referring to the non-snipe single target attacks like Power Burst and such. The ones I see are Apoc, Explosive Strike, and Gladiator's Javelin, and the only one of those unlocked by the KB category is Explosive Strike. 

 

The sniper attack gains an extra toxic proc, but so does every sniper attack in every set. The ranged AOE and PBAOE powers also gain more, but again those are available to every set. The one bonus damage proc that Energy Blast can slot that can't go into most other sets is Explosive Strike, unless I'm missing something. 

[ZacKing]

22 minutes ago, FupDup said:

I'm referring to the non-snipe single target attacks like Power Burst and such. The ones I see are Apoc, Explosive Strike, and Gladiator's Javelin, and the only one of those unlocked by the KB category is Explosive Strike. 

 

Are you counting only damage procs?  Because if you aren't, there are more than just those three sets that have procs that can be slotted in Power Burst. 

[FupDup]

1 minute ago, ZacKing said:

 

Are you counting only damage procs?  Because if you aren't, there are more than just those three sets that have procs that can be slotted in Power Burst. 

If we include all types of procs, that adds the obvious Force Feedback proc to all KB powers but otherwise that's about it (Sudden Accel isn't really a "proc"). 

[Stormwalker]

4 hours ago, tidge said:

 

 Here is some classic "othering" that I'm sure we can all get behind! If only we catch 'em while they are young, we can get them to rightthink.

 

/s

 

You don't think people who willfully choose to disrupt parties (category 3) should be kicked from the party?  What do you suggest be done with them?

 

If you don't think people who don't realize that they're disrupting the party (categories 1 and 2) should be informed that they're disrupting the party and advised on how to use their powers without disrupting it, then... I don't know what to tell you.

 

Again.  I am someone who is against kicking people from parties just because they have knockback.  I've had the experience of having to argue for myself as an Energy blaster that "Yes, I know how to use my powers without ruining the experience for everyone else," because people wanted to boot me right from the start when we hadn't even fought anything yet.  What I'm trying to get at is that learning to use KB without disrupting the party is not as hard as people seem to think it is, and anyone who IS disrupting the party either 1). is new and doesn't know how NOT to disrupt the party yet, 2). doesn't realize they're disrupting the party, or 3). knows they're disrupting the party and doesn't care.

 

What solutions do you propose to 1 and 2 that don't involve advising the player how they can not disrupt the party?  And what solution do you propose to 3 that doesn't involve removing the willfully disruptive player?

 

I'm a little baffled by your reaction here.

[Rudra]

4 hours ago, tidge said:

 

 Here is some classic "othering" that I'm sure we can all get behind! If only we catch 'em while they are young, we can get them to rightthink.

 

/s

It's not a question of "right think". It's a question of whether the player(s) using KB ever took the time to understand how it affects teams they are on and if the team wants to put up with someone that they know is intentionally being disruptive.

 

Yes, there are a lot of experienced players in the game that don't seem to know how to use KB when on a team. The question is do they actually not know or do they actually not care. If they don't know, then the first step is always to let them know. And if needed, help them adjust their tactics to work with the team. Regardless if the player in question is a new player or has been a player since Issue 0. And if they do know and just don't care, they enjoy watching the the rest of the team grumble about their KB, then it is a question of do you and your team really want to play with that person.

[Stormwalker]

6 hours ago, Excraft said:

 

I disagree.  EB works fine as a primary set.  Perhaps if you are finding it to be sub-par, it may be due to build choices?  I don't know your build, so I can't say.  I think EB works fine with a good build just like any other set.

 

 

Taking the primary in isolation here, because I actually think Energy Manipulation is quite good:

 

Energy Blast is capable of dealing fairly good single-target damage.  I don't disagree with that - I said as much myself in one of my earlier comments.

 

Its AoE output is not good, though.  Mostly because Explosive Blast is terrible.

 

I'll grant Energy Blast is in a better place with regard to AoE than it was before the T9's were normalized, because that improved Nova quite a bit (and it was pretty bad before).  But Energy Blast is never going to contribute to team kill speed the way Fire does, and (since we are talking here about an Energy Blast set which has been stripped of its KB, just to remind you of the context of my original comments), it provides has no secondary effects like the other sets do to complement their damage output.

 

Properly used, Energy Blast as it is right now can in fact contribute quite a bit of mitigation to a team.  To get the most of it requires either making use of the terrain, using Hover to turn KB into KD, or slotting KB -> KD, but it can be a significant contributor to reducing damage intake on your Tank.  Without its KB, all it has is damage, and at that point it's just Fire without the raw damage that makes Fire the most popular set.

Edited Sunday at 10:11 PM by Stormwalker
Fixing typos

[Stormwalker]

16 minutes ago, Rudra said:

It's not a question of "right think". It's a question of whether the player(s) using KB ever took the time to understand how it affects teams they are on and if the team wants to put up with someone that they know is intentionally being disruptive.

 

Yes, there are a lot of experienced players in the game that don't seem to know how to use KB when on a team. The question is do they actually not know or do they actually not care. If they don't know, then the first step is always to let them know. And if needed, help them adjust their tactics to work with the team. Regardless if the player in question is a new player or has been a player since Issue 0. And if they do know and just don't care, they enjoy watching the the rest of the team grumble about their KB, then it is a question of do you and your team really want to play with that person.

 

Thank you.  You may have expressed what I was trying to say better than I did.

[tidge]

3 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

 

You don't think people who willfully choose to disrupt parties (category 3) should be kicked from the party?  What do you suggest be done with them?

 

I'm a little baffled by your reaction here.

 

You made a HUGE leap form someone playing with a knockback set to someone willfully disrupting team play. everything else in your post is rationalization for your own prejudices.

[tidge]

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

It's not a question of "right think". It's a question of whether the player(s) using KB ever took the time to understand how it affects teams they are on and if the team wants to put up with someone that they know is intentionally being disruptive.

 

You are also ascribing willfulness to hurt others, when:

a) I question how the 'harm' merits such vitriol, and

b) not everything everyone does in the world that you don't like is intending to upset you.

[Stormwalker]

13 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

You made a HUGE leap form someone playing with a knockback set to someone willfully disrupting team play. everything else in your post is rationalization for your own prejudices.

 

What the Hell?

 

I am PRO-KNOCKBACK!  My favorite character is my Energy Blaster!

 

I have been arguing against changing the Energy Blast set or putting in a KB -> KD toggle, because using knockback without disrupting the party is not actually difficult.  All that is required is 1). situational awareness, 2). caring enough about the good of the team to make sure you use your powers in a way that benefits the team, and 3). a little understanding of how your powers work.

 

Have you not read anything that I have written in this thread?!

 

Where do you get this idea that I have a prejudice against people who use knockback?

 

There is a very huge difference between someone having knockback and using it appropriately, and someone who is "willfully disrupting the party" as I put it.  That was my entire point!

 

Edited Monday at 01:09 AM by Stormwalker

[Rudra]

30 minutes ago, tidge said:

3 hours ago, Rudra said:

It's not a question of "right think". It's a question of whether the player(s) using KB ever took the time to understand how it affects teams they are on and if the team wants to put up with someone that they know is intentionally being disruptive.

 

You are also ascribing willfulness to hurt others, when:

a) I question how the 'harm' merits such vitriol, and

b) not everything everyone does in the world that you don't like is intending to upset you.

Hardly. The only time I am ascribing willfulness to hurt others is after a person is disrupting a team they are on, that person has been asked to cease doing so, that person persists and tells the rest of the team that his/her/their preferences overrides the team.

 

a) Please point out the vitriol in my actual comment, rather than what you have chosen to ascribe to it.

                       vitriol (noun)

                       vit·ri·ol ˈvi-trē-əl

                      1: bitterly harsh or caustic language or criticism

Disagreeing with you about something is not "vitriol".

 

b) That's a given. Is there a point to that comment?

 

If you had included the rest of the post you are quoting, then hopefully you would have seen what I was trying to say. I am not one of the players asking for KB to go the way of the dodo. I have not engaged in any strong or emphatic dialogue about the matter in this thread. What I had said, apparently not clearly enough given your comment, is that every time someone thinks they have a player using KB to their team's detriment, the first step is to let that player know how their actions are affecting the team. This holds true as much for anything else as for KB. Tanker running around and grabbing everything on the map despite aggro caps and getting the rest of the team swarmed and then dead? Bring that up with the Tanker and hopefully it will stop happening. A team member throwing buffs on you and you don't want the buffs? Bring that up with the team member and hopefully that character will stop buffing you. (Though some things are plain unavoidable with how some powers work.) Regardless of the activity being done, if a player or the team doesn't like it, the first thing to do is to bring it up. And if the player is having problems adapting, then offer some advice. Now if that same player persists in performing said activity and tells you/the team where you/the team can stick it? Then you are dealing with a problem player. Your choice then becomes to either continue playing with that player regardless of their actions or send that player away. It's your/the team's call depending on what is going on.

 

Edit: For clarification, in the context of this thread, there are four types of players. Players that know how KB affects teams and is mindful of how they employ their KB powers to aid the team, players that don't realize how their KB affects the team for any reason but are willing to learn and adapt, players that don't realize how their KB affects the team for any reason and don't care should they be made aware, and players that fully understand how their use of KB affects the team and either don't care or enjoy frustrating others with it. Players of the third type can be folded into the fourth type after they have been made aware and refuse to do anything even if offered help in adjusting. You can't determine what kind of player you are dealing with (except for those in the first type) until after you bring up the action you find to be problematic and see how that player responds.

 

Edited Monday at 01:32 AM by Rudra

[tidge]

24 minutes ago, Rudra said:

The only time I am ascribing willfulness to hurt others is after a person is disrupting a team they are on, that person has been asked to cease doing so, that person persists and tells the rest of the team that his/her/their preferences overrides the team.

 

And how often does this scenario actually play out w.r.t. to knockback? Sometimes knockback annoys me for some characters I play... but I never say anything about it....because the stakes are so small. Sometimes I see a teammate make a comment about knockback, but it is nine-times-out-of-ten because the critters we are fighting are weak to knockback (typically clockworks).

 

Much of this threads reads to me like an over-reaction because the critters aren't exactly where some players want them to be at all times, and players are being mindlessly categorized because of some sins. It is silly and mean-spirited.

[Rudra]

10 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

And how often does this scenario actually play out w.r.t. to knockback? Sometimes knockback annoys me for some characters I play... but I never say anything about it....because the stakes are so small. Sometimes I see a teammate make a comment about knockback, but it is nine-times-out-of-ten because the critters we are fighting are weak to knockback (typically clockworks).

 

Much of this threads reads to me like an over-reaction because the critters aren't exactly where some players want them to be at all times, and players are being mindlessly categorized because of some sins. It is silly and mean-spirited.

There is a reason why I was avoiding commenting in this thread until I started. Please do not read my posts as an extension of what anyone else may have posted. I am not any of the other posters in this thread. Please read my threads as something I am saying, not as a continuation of someone else's. Even if my comment is in support of someone else's, I have my own mind and opinions.

 

Edit: In regards to you not commenting to KB users that frustrate you? That is your choice. By all means, continue doing so if that is your preference. If something I am experiencing while on the rare occasions I team annoys me, I keep it to myself if it is something I consider to be small as well. (Which is usually the case on the rare occasions out of the rare occasions teaming that something like that happens.) However, if something is going on that is actually bothering you, then again, it should be brought up in the hopes of finding a resolution that works for you and the other player if possible. There is no hope of anything changing otherwise. I've found that on those rare occasions someone is bothering me and I brought up it, it usually isn't just me being bothered by it, and the person bothering us is more than willing to adapt because bothering others was not his/her/their intent.

 

Edited Monday at 02:07 AM by Rudra

[Super Atom]

none of you have done anything to explain why knockback is good, all you've done is say you sometimes can use it in a way that eliminates what KB does and not disrupt the team.

 

Just because you like something, doesn't mean it isn't bad.

 

just encase you forgot to actually mention why KB shouldn't be addressed.

 

edit: actually, the only person who explained why it won't be is the first reply to the original post.

Edited Monday at 02:39 AM by Super Atom

[Stormwalker]

35 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

none of you have done anything to explain why knockback is good, all you've done is say you sometimes can use it in a way that eliminates what KB does and not disrupt the team.

 

Just because you like something, doesn't mean it isn't bad.

 

just encase you forgot to actually mention why KB shouldn't be addressed.

 

edit: actually, the only person who explained why it won't be is the first reply to the original post.

 

I've said more than once in this thread - including in one of my responses today - that properly used KB can provide significant damage mitigation to a team.  It can also help in herding enemies together.  How much advantage this provides is dependent on usable terrain, however.  You need corners to push things into to make it work.

 

And it can.  It requires some effort to do it, but Energy Blast with its KB brings more to a team (when properly used) than Energy Blast without its KB.

 

But there's something else you're dismissing.  Team play is not the only way this game is played.  And in solo play, KB for a blaster is absolutely a positive.  It provides more effective self-defense than KD does by 1). keeping the enemy out of attack position longer (because their flight time is also time when they are not attacking) and 2). Getting them out of melee range.

 

For that matter, KB converted to KD via Hover is a (slightly) more effective KD than pure KD, because when you KB enemies into the ground hard enough?  They bounce.   It's not as effective as KU in that regard, but it's better than KD.

 

Also, this is a freakin' superhero power fantasy.  Being able to knock your enemies around is, frankly, part of the fun.  Of course, indulging in that fun comes with a certain amount of responsibility to be a good teammate and not let your fun be a burden on your team, but I for one am perfectly willing to accept that responsibility in order to have my fun.

 

And there's one last thing I'm going to say, and that's this.  I'm out on this thread.  It's causing me stress.  I'm getting flak from both sides at this point and it's sapping my ability to enjoy the game.  Screw that.  I've already said everything I have to say, anyway.

Edited Monday at 03:09 AM by Stormwalker

[Super Atom]

17 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

 

I've said more than once in this thread - including in one of my responses today - that properly used KB can provide significant damage mitigation to a team.  It can also help in herding enemies together.  How much advantage this provides is dependent on usable terrain, however.  You need corners to push things into to make it work.

 

And it can.  It requires some effort to do it, but Energy Blast with its KB brings more to a team (when properly used) than Energy Blast without its KB.

 

But there's something else you're dismissing.  Team play is not the only way this game is played.  And in solo play, KB for a blaster is absolutely a positive.  It provides more effective self-defense than KD does by 1). keeping the enemy out of attack position longer (because their flight time is also time when they are not attacking) and 2). Getting them out of melee range.

 

For that matter, KB converted to KD via Hover is a (slightly) more effective KD than pure KD, because when you KB enemies into the ground hard enough?  They bounce.   It's not as effective as KU in that regard, but it's better than KD.

 

Also, this is a freakin' superhero power fantasy.  Being able to knock your enemies around is, frankly, part of the fun.  Of course, indulging in that fun comes with a certain amount of responsibility to be a good teammate and not let your fun be a burden on your team, but I for one am perfectly willing to accept that responsibility in order to have my fun.

 

don't get me wrong here, I understand why its fun. I understand it's extremely limited niche uses of knocking something into a wall to prevent the actual problem with KB.

 

However, these are limited examples of a niche helpful use, not a counter to the wide-spread misuse and anti-meta of the gameplay loop of herd > aoe down > move on. "Helping herd" is done better and faster by taunt or fold space with a lot less room for error that would make it worse. While you've spent the time needed to align yourself to knockback a section of enemies who may not be right ontop of the tank, another toon has used a judgement or a nuke and everything that would likely be out of range is dead.

 

Also, i ignore it not mattering in soloing because many things don't matter in solo play, but rarely do they also disrupt team play.

 

As for the superhero fantasy, that didn't save rage from getting "fixed" to be less fun, or any other nerf that came. It's not a good enough reason now, even if our   decision makers said so.

 

 

Edited Monday at 03:20 AM by Super Atom

[Rudra]

9 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

 

don't get me wrong here, I understand why its fun. I understand it's extremely limited niche uses of knocking something into a wall to prevent the actual problem with KB.

 

However, these are limited examples of a niche helpful use, not a counter to the wide-spread misuse and anti-meta of the gameplay loop of herd > aoe down > move on. "Helping herd" is done better and faster by taunt or fold space with a lot less room for error that would make it worse. While you've spent the time needed to align yourself to knockback a section of enemies who may not be right ontop of the tank, another toon has used a judgement or a nuke and everything that would likely be out of range is dead.

 

Also, i ignore it not mattering in soloing because many things don't matter in solo play, but rarely do they also disrupt team play.

 

As for the superhero fantasy, that didn't save rage from getting "fixed" to be less fun, or any other nerf that came. It's not a good enough reason now, even if our   decision makers said so.

 

 

That's the problem with your request for a presentation for why KB is good or beneficial. If it doesn't fall within the meta, you are unwilling to accept it as an answer.

[Super Atom]

Just now, Rudra said:

That's the problem with your request for a presentation for why KB is good or beneficial. If it doesn't fall within the meta, you are unwilling to accept it as an answer.

 

That's because "im having fun" Isn't an answer.

[Rudra]

Just now, Super Atom said:

 

That's because "im having fun" Isn't an answer.

Thing is, what makes KB good is the same thing that makes mezzes good. Except mezzes don't fit within the meta. The meta is all about rapidly doing as much damage to as many targets as can be managed. And things like holds and sleeps don't help the meta even though they can be leveraged. So if the whole point of it is for it to fit within the meta and help expedite the annihilation of large quantities of mobs in as short a time as possible, then no answer can be given.

[Super Atom]

Just now, Rudra said:

Thing is, what makes KB good is the same thing that makes mezzes good. Except mezzes don't fit within the meta. The meta is all about rapidly doing as much damage to as many targets as can be managed. And things like holds and sleeps don't help the meta even though they can be leveraged. So if the whole point of it is for it to fit within the meta and help expedite the annihilation of large quantities of mobs in as short a time as possible, then no answer can be given.

 

An answer was given, a null the gull option to turn it from KB > KD. It's not about only being damage, It's about not disrupting the damage.

 

Nobody was even asking for KB to be completely removed. They were asking for an option to not sacrifice build slots to not disrupt their team experience.

[Rudra]

1 minute ago, Super Atom said:

An answer was given, a null the gull option to turn it from KB > KD. It's not about only being damage, It's about not disrupting the damage.

No, that is not an answer to your question of why is KB good. That is an answer to your desire to remove KB so it doesn't interfere with the meta of facerolling everything.

 

2 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

Nobody was even asking for KB to be completely removed. They were asking for an option to not sacrifice build slots to not disrupt their team experience.

And I guarantee that if it was made an option, and a dev already said it wouldn't be, then teams would demand players with sets like Energy Blast have that option turned on even before the KB set using player can show if they can use the set to aid the team or at least not get in the team's way. So yes, it would still effectively remove KB from the game outside of solo play.

[Super Atom]

Just now, Rudra said:

No, that is not an answer to your question of why is KB good. That is an answer to your desire to remove KB so it doesn't interfere with the meta of facerolling everything.

 

And I guarantee that if it was made an option, and a dev already said it wouldn't be, then teams would demand players with sets like Energy Blast have that option turned on even before the KB set using player can show if they can use the set to aid the team or at least not get in the team's way. So yes, it would still effectively remove KB from the game outside of solo play.

 

I didn't mean an answer to why it's good, because the answer is it isn't good. The answer to the KB problem was the point of this thread without disrupting people who do want to use it.

 

As for your fear-mongering scenario of pretend bullying, that should already be an issue then and so nothing would change.

 

 

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

As for your fear-mongering scenario of pretend bullying, that should already be an issue then and so nothing would change.

Except as others have already demonstrated in this and other KB threads, there are players that even on teams use KB and the team is happy with how they use it. So something would change.

 

And to use your previous example:

27 minutes ago, Super Atom said:

While you've spent the time needed to align yourself to knockback a section of enemies who may not be right ontop of the tank, another toon has used a judgement or a nuke and everything that would likely be out of range is dead.

If everyone is already using their nukes and Judgements to fast clear everything, then who cares if someone is using a KB heavy set? That player can also just use his/her/their Judgement and faceroll everything right alongside the rest of you. So why the need to make KB go away in the first place?

 

Edit: And all of this is moot anyway because a dev already said it isn't going to go away.

 

Edited Monday at 03:39 AM by Rudra