Rad/Dark tank idea

[Mattmba]

So I play some and think about builds too much. 
 

Anyone have thoughts on a rad/dark tank? Thinking the -to hit in dark would go well with rads -def

 

Any good builds or thoughts appreciated. 
 

What’s a fun tank that does damage? Wish stone didn’t look so horrible.  

[tidge]

I don't think I've played Dark Melee since Live. Radiation Armor is IMO a pretty strong set. the combination should be fun, no reason to NOT try it! Opinions follow!

 

-ToHit is IMO a sort of weird debuff, in the following ways. First: It isn't exactly reliable in the sense that not everything attacking (you) will be debuffed. For this combo, the Beta Decay (melee AoE) toggle should do most of the heavy lifting (for nearby enemies). I think that Beta Decay by itself can make a big difference in some circumstances, this is based on my Radiation Armor characters being the 'tanks' for Nemesis Wedding Event content. Second, -ToHit is one of the buff/debuffs on a lower enhancement scale, so in my personal opinion it isn't worth chasing too much (if any) enhancement of that, except mostly through Hami-Os.

 

About the primary/secondary combo: I see a nice synergy between the PBAoE click attacks in each set... there are quite a few opportunities for %damage slotting. The drawback is that these are all generally long recharge time clicks, clustered at higher level tiers, so this is a case where Hasten should yield significant improvement (it wouldn't need to be perma IMO) in damage output. This combo feels (to me) like one that might be a bit dull to play at lower levels until you start amassing PBAoEs (and slots), after which you should be satisfied with it.

 

I suggest taking all 9 of the Radiation Armor powers (I usually delay Proton Armor, as it isn't really needed at low levels and doesn't do that much at those levels, except maybe as a mule).  T9 Meltdown is quite good, both as a power and how it fits in with the rest of the primary. I wouldn't delay taking it past level 32.

 

From the secondary I'd probably take: Smite, Shadow Maul, Taunt, Siphon Life, Touch of Fear, Soul Drain, Dark Consumption, Midnight Grasp. If I had to delay any of those, it would probably be Dark Consumption, because of the 3 minute timer.

 

The Powers I would look for %damage would be (levels listed when first available, I'd have to test the Dark Melee ones):

 

Level 8: Radiation Therapy

Level 20: Touch of Fear (the 8-second base recharge time is bad for %procs, so this requires the most testing IMO)

Level 22: Ground Zero

Level 24: Soul Drain

Level 28: Dark Consumption

 

If Touch of Fear turns out to be mediocre, level 20 might be when I slot in Hasten. Often at level 20 is when I drop in a capstone pool power, but I haven't put enough thought into this combo to offer any specific suggestion(s).

[Mattmba]

Thank you very much for the great feedback. I’ll look at it closer after work and review further the need for hasten and higher recharge. 
 

Could this build be at all playable with no defensive powers and SOs? I’m mainly trying to understand how much defense I would need if I was hitting everything with -to hit debuffs. I have an initial SO build in Mids that is probably laughable but I’m trying to make it playable before I invest time and influence into an IO build. 

[tidge]

3 minutes ago, Mattmba said:

Could this build be at all playable with no defensive powers and SOs? I’m mainly trying to understand how much defense I would need if I was hitting everything with -to hit debuffs. I have an initial SO build in Mids that is probably laughable but I’m trying to make it playable before I invest time and influence into an IO build. 

 

Yes!

 

My thoughts are somewhat biased by IOs and set bonuses, which are not hard to come by. For example, you can buy a Steadfast Protection Resistance/+3 Def (All) recipe with 20 merits, which is trivial to get from zone exploration (4 complete zones). Let's set this aside.

 

I have recently leveled up a Radiation Scrapper that only has two "power" sources of +Defense, Melee via Katana's Divine Avalanche, and Shadow Meld at level 38 (plus set bonuses). It does just fine standing in the thick of things.

[Warshades]

5 minutes ago, Mattmba said:

Could this build be at all playable with no defensive powers and SOs? I’m mainly trying to understand how much defense I would need if I was hitting everything with -to hit debuffs. I have an initial SO build in Mids that is probably laughable but I’m trying to make it playable before I invest time and influence into an IO build. 

 

Here's the thing you need to realize about dark melee, the -tohit is more of a bonus rather than a reason to take the power set. When you're in the middle of a mob, you're getting attacked by, most likely, 12+ enemies. Dark melee doesn't have any useful AoE attacks that can hit all those enemies and apply -tohit. You can slightly remedy this by going with soul patron pool for dark obliteration, but a large majority of your -tohit attacks from dark melee are single target. I don't fully recall on Touch of Fear, but iirc, the -tohit only applies to the target of the attack and while it can damage nearby enemies to the target, it doesn't apply the -tohit to them. So really, the only dark melee attack that can hit multiple targets to apply -tohit is Shadow Maul.

 

In my personal opinion, because radiation armor has no inherent defense, you're likely better off pairing it with a high damage attack set secondary. Your best defense for radiation armor is high offense to kill things quickly. Dark melee isn't very good at this.

[hobopete]

I’m probably the least experienced CoH tanker answering your question, but I have only 1 real toon and she’s a rad/dark tanker and a gas.  Septic Tank is decidedly off meta however, I went psi epic rather than soul which most builds recommend.

 

I think the synergy between rad armor and dark melee works fairly well.   Grass is always greener but I think the synergies on SS are probably better.

 

Problem as I see it is that Rad/Dark wants recharge to maintain durability.   Rapid fire of radiation therapy and siphon life for healing and particle barrier for the damage shield is essential for Septic to get out of most of the dumb stuff I get her into.  Without defense slot skills for LoTG or knockback powers for the FF procs global recharge relies on 5 slot purple I/o.   5 slots are tough because you need slow resistance very much and run out of space.

 

I work around this with CJ and weave to let me slot 2 LoTG and psi epic for dominate, which lets me slot 3 slot entomb with the absorb proc and psi tornado with a FF proc.  With the gauntlet fist proc on siphon life septic relies on pumping the damage shield rather than avoiding getting hit.   I’m plying with the idea of cross punch for another Ff proc.

 

Im going to disagree slightly with earlier posters and say I’d skip ToF.   It’s fun, but you have a bunch of other PB AoE powers in soul drain, shadow maul, radiation therapy and ground zero.   Dark consumption is also skippable if you slot radiation therapy with the endurance proc( name escapes me)

[Rustbeltcomics]

Thanks everyone for the great advice and sharing your experiences. I am not opposed to building out IOs at all. I must admit thought that I usually don't follow through all the way until 50s and only have a few 50s with (mostly) built IOs. Saying that I have influence and plenty of IOS to use by respeccing them out of alts. One is an Elect/Stone tank that hit 50 a few years back that was fun for a while until I lost interest. Probably due to lack of damage procs.

 

Anyway, here is my first attempt at an IO build for a Rad/Dark tank that seems promising. I got melee defense soft capped and have too much in res at over 116% for s/l. I also got some decent recharge at 67.5% plus the FF proc in Kick and could possibly add another to Cross Punch. I went with Taunt over Ground Zero even though I would love to fit Ground Zero into the build. I would love to find ways to boost damage further and know how much def and resistance I can sacrifice and still have a fun, fast moving build.

 

https://api.midsreborn.com/legacy/download?uc=1615&c=708&a=1416&f=HEX&dc=78DA75944B4F135114C7FFB73315698BBCA9082DA5C81B2A98B8F7816E8004817DD3C0080DB543DA92C85E7C051551E3468D2EFD062EFC08B2F5B970EB0B75A13C04A9A773E6C0AD8649A6F7D773EE79DE7B66F8D24060E5E5D049A8C09954229B8D8F27D23356C6376E4D4CA7ED943D358FC253426F9855F101EB8295CE5AB1D1C46432914BDAE9F8A9CC453B1374D5C356CAB2620389CC0C237C23B69D8A8DCD5AD6A4DFC173A9E4D474AE8CB980C9F454F1BFE0D9D9E444EC74662E67C5C7ECB9547C3891CD5999F97A4A2342EF8D76FA519027EF057E1A40BF090F7E31985867F06183E10882641232D18B3596AC9716BB21E908ADD182F57986031815186778D149360A83BBB1153E4AA44F0C017C16F8C210C65781558628B5D4C05E6C65A01B8EE690C04DAAD2ABA5072F8EB3F12DD294A8DDD4F366091A5973102181B0E1BA8B3054A0996183CA2ED5FC9AA57868BA5B1E3154E1B1E936ED09C3513C65B84DB1FD8A3A2489FBB1E27134116419FC545B999E78190A9D360DFCA6B55C3FB872E9789574BC0663026EC7EB50653807578788C771B34439546A6E5425E5E7843E2CB04591AAF548D5B86CBA5B16181A7145E0AA14794DE03AC326B9A9D54BA99522B74913D4FA80209EB1C643E5D72BB567538F05D62C53DE0D7ADE0D72D6CD023BE436A4E71DC22BB93AAF0DB7CF6F04DE1AAEF53B81F70C8B14A94977D32413D28E13CA812E99901E99991E19955E6C3218544A54BF2A5171D322462DE2A645ACBB64BEE85AA2554FA21583AC69739AEA408D408572F3AB16A86498249B0EDD4D079658D3893B02CB0277A5BA7BCAADE53EC38700D0AD37BF1B6D5EE73AF5082CB602313D520C5B7C72C7B02DF0476087A11F79017075162D7D7AA43E78BCEE96E77CCC9D66F1A727DF68427FF28E309FC7D03EF21153B727B962F9AAAFD8B1ECFFB68FFCFBFF7277827EFCA3217CE05E70ACF174D044D26C6B55FC059D6FD916

 

Edited Tuesday at 11:55 PM by Rustbeltcomics

[Spaghetti Betty]

8 hours ago, Warshades said:

I don't fully recall on Touch of Fear, but iirc, the -tohit only applies to the target of the attack and while it can damage nearby enemies to the target, it doesn't apply the -tohit to them.

This is true! The only AoE aspect of the attack is the splash damage. The Fear and -Tohit only apply to the selected target.

 

To follow up on that, this also means procs interact with it in kind of a funny way! If you were to say, slot it with Cloud Senses: Chance for Neg Damage and a few AoE damage procs, your target will get hit with the Cloud Senses proc only, while any mob affected by the splash effect will be subject to the AoE procs!

 

This is a major reason why I think it's still a pretty garbage attack!

[tidge]

I *did* suggest testing Touch of Fear. Per CoD, it looks like both the original target and the splash would be subject to the Perfect Zinger %Psi proc.

[Rustbeltcomics]

I am convinced. I took out Touch of Fear and put in Ground Zero which is a great power. Not sure I should put my Tanker IOs in there but want the 5% defense they give me with 5 slots.

 

Gonna fire up a new character now. Wish me luck!

 

[WuTang]

23 hours ago, Warshades said:

I don't fully recall on Touch of Fear, but iirc, the -tohit only applies to the target of the attack and while it can damage nearby enemies to the target

 

Umm this makes me sad....and a lil unhappy. How are we supposed to know that from the description? I've been thinking my Dark/SR Brute has been spamming -11% toHit in melee range to all...BUT no?? That literally makes Touch of Fear pretty much useless. It does little damage, and it doesn't even proc well, what is its point? The more I learn about Dark Melee the less I like it.

[tidge]

Got to the page for Touch of Fear and open each of the two different effect links:

 

The AoE effect: Threat, Melee AoE, Universal Damage, Tanker ATO

 

The Direct Effect: Accurate ToHit Debuff, ToHit Debuff, Threat, Fear (this also has a higher base accuracy = 1.2)

 

I agree that it looks to be a poor attack, but sometimes these things have a way of surprising me.  My testing would be to leverage it as a %Proc, with boosted Accuracy (or Accuracy/Endurance Reduction), %Psi (perfect zinger) and then to pepper in Melee AoE %damage pieces for use when fighting crowds.

 

 

[Warshades]

1 hour ago, WuTang said:

That literally makes Touch of Fear pretty much useless. It does little damage, and it doesn't even proc well, what is its point? The more I learn about Dark Melee the less I like it.

 

I tried ToF once when I heard that it was changed to a PBAoE on homecoming, but I really didn't like it after trying it. Perhaps with 0 recharge buffs in it, it will proc semi-often, but it doesn't have a long base recharge to begin with. As for Dark Melee as a whole, I still like it for certain armor combinations. It pairs quite well with SR and Shield which both lack a heal and offers endurance recovery in Dark Consumption which shield, and to a lesser extent SR, could really use. While dark melee offers very poor AoE damage, it can have a decently good ST rotation, especially if you choose to proc out Siphon Life.

 

I have a SR/DM tank that I've nearly finished building and the thing is tough as nails between positional soft cap defense and scaling resistance. Add to this that I've built it with ~55% s/l/e/n resist before any scaling resist/SMoT proc and it has access to Siphon Life, he basically is never at risk of dying.

[WuTang]

7 minutes ago, Warshades said:

 

I tried ToF once when I heard that it was changed to a PBAoE on homecoming, but I really didn't like it after trying it. Perhaps with 0 recharge buffs in it, it will proc semi-often, but it doesn't have a long base recharge to begin with. As for Dark Melee as a whole, I still like it for certain armor combinations. It pairs quite well with SR and Shield which both lack a heal and offers endurance recovery in Dark Consumption which shield, and to a lesser extent SR, could really use. While dark melee offers very poor AoE damage, it can have a decently good ST rotation, especially if you choose to proc out Siphon Life.

 

I have a SR/DM tank that I've nearly finished building and the thing is tough as nails between positional soft cap defense and scaling resistance. Add to this that I've built it with ~55% s/l/e/n resist before any scaling resist/SMoT proc and it has access to Siphon Life, he basically is never at risk of dying.

Oh yeah don't get me wrong, I like my mini Dark/SR Brute. I had to work at getting his damage up, but he's always been stout. I've only face planted a few times with unlucky shots slipping in without my resistances having scaled up.

 

I've worked on a SR/Dark Tank build but haven't pulled the trigger cause I worry the damage will be subpar.

[Warshades]

5 minutes ago, WuTang said:

I've worked on a SR/Dark Tank build but haven't pulled the trigger cause I worry the damage will be subpar.

 

Not sure on how much fury would help the brute version, but at least base damage on a tanker will be higher. The real nice thing about the tanker version of dark melee is the boosted arc on Shadow Maul, makes it so much easier to hit multiple targets compared to trying to do so on any other melee AT.