Saga Mode

[Excraft]

59 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

That looks like it would hit harder, at range, than something like total focus or headsplitter slotted with SOs.

 

Right so.... why would I want to gimp myself using "saga mode" again?  I'm still not seeing how it "breathes new life into old content".

 

9 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

I'm not concerned with how these people feel.

 

Good to know.

 

9 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

I'm concerned with how the game actually is now. Is the proposal out of line with how things actually are now.

 

Many of those people you aren't concerned with are fine with how the game actually is now, and your proposal is out of line with how they like things now.

[Excraft]

14 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Similar to battlewraith's idea, it would only be available after the character has gotten to level 50, hits the Saga mode switch, and the character is back at level one having to chose initial powers and then level up by gaining XP.  This would be like the second and third build so you could always switch back if you wanted to run some 4 star content.  Also similar is that the character cannot slot any IOs.  But instead of being able to choose any powers at any level, the character has to choose them in the standard order, before the compression.  The character is also "blessed" with a saga mode power that removes Beginners luck (https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Attack_Mechanics#Beginner's_Luck), reinstitutes the old, higher debt values, and essentially brings back the game experience from 15 - 20 years ago.  Goodbye, ED!

 

Yeah, good luck with that.  I don't see this happening here.  I think one of the other servers is set up this way though!

[battlewraith]

9 minutes ago, Excraft said:

Many of those people you aren't concerned with are fine with how the game actually is now, and your proposal is out of line with how they like things now.

 

Exactly. They don't want anything to change. And maybe...possibly...hypothetically...they may camp out in a suggestions forum and try to shut down ideas under the guise of "helping."

Scary thought right? Oh well, people are weird lol.

Edited March 15 by battlewraith

[Excraft]

On 3/14/2025 at 8:02 AM, ZacKing said:

Let's try another approach here.  One of the stated goals for saga mode is to "breathe new life into old content" by making "lower level content palatable again".  Let's say I want to roll an Axe/Shield scrapper.  I start out by picking Beheader and Deflection.  I run around Atlas Park and defeat some mobs to hit level 2. I visit Miss Liberty and start leveling up.  At level 2 I pick Chop.  I pick up a door mission and head over to the location.  I'm in the mission, clicking Chop and Beheader, wait for them to recharge so I can click them again, rinse and repeat moving from mob to mob until the mission is done.  I repeat this process as I run more door missions.

 

Now, let's say I decide to roll another Axe/Shield scrapper using saga mode.  I start out by picking Beheader and Deflection.  I run around Atlas Park and defeat some mobs to hit level 2. I visit Miss Liberty and start leveling up.  At level 2 I pick Cleave since it's available instead of Beheader.  I pick up a door mission and head over to the location.  I'm in the mission, clicking Chop and Cleave, wait for them to recharge so I can click them again, rinse and repeat moving from mob to mob until the mission is done.  I repeat this process as I run more door missions.

 

What's "new" in that scenario and how is it "breathing new life into old content"?  I'm still waiting around for powers to recharge, hoping my attacks land and I don't get destroyed waiting around for attacks to recharge.  How is that "more palatable"?

 

I'm still waiting to see how "saga mode" addresses the above.  That's actually how the game would play using "saga mode" and there's really no meaningful difference.  So how is "saga mode breathing new life into old content"?  So we can use Headsplitter or Inferno at level 2.  Ok?  So what?  How is that "breathing new life into old content" and " making lower level content palatable again" beyond the minor novelty of having a nuke at level 2? 

 

We already have multiple build slots, any one of which can be limited to using SOs only. 

Edited March 15 by Excraft

[Excraft]

1 minute ago, battlewraith said:

They don't want anything to change.

 

While I'm sure that there are some who don't want anything to change, I suspect that most people here welcome updates to the game.  I'm sorry that your idea is no good and more people don't like it. 

[Excraft]

7 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

And maybe...possibly...hypothetically...they may camp out in a suggestions forum and try to shut down ideas under the guise of "helping."

 

To be honest, this is a you problem.  Others have provided their thoughts, opinions and feedback on a public thread where you chose to post.  The fact that they don't like your idea as presented doesn't mean anyone is deliberately trying to shut you down or your idea.  It just means that they don't like it as presented and are offering you their critique in order to help you refine your idea.  You seem to be taking that as some personal slight, and any disagreement as a personal insult and attack on you.  It isn't.  The only person I've seen in here saying they don't care what others want or what they think is you.  That's a good indicator of where the problem is.

Edited March 15 by Excraft

[battlewraith]

1 minute ago, Excraft said:

 

I'm still waiting to see how "saga mode" address the above.  That's actually how the game would play using "saga mode" and there's really no meaningful difference.  So how is "saga mode breathing new life into old content"?  So we can use Headsplitter or Inferno at level 2.  Ok?  So what?  How is that "breathing new life into old content" and " making lower level content palatable again"?

 

We already have multiple build slots, any one of which can be limited to using SOs only. 

 

Frankly it's a pretty basic concept. It allows for build combinations that aren't possible now, particularly at low levels.

This doesn't sound appealing to you? Okay? That's you. That's your preference. I'm not going to sell you on an ice cream flavor either. 

You're not interested. I get it. I get that other people here don't like it. Why are you still nagging about it? 

 

"While I'm sure that there are some who don't want anything to change, I suspect that most people here welcome updates to the game.  I'm sorry that your idea is no good and more people don't like it. "

 

Thanks for the PSA. If you have anything new to add, I'm all ears.

[battlewraith]

3 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

To be honest, this is a you problem.  Others have provided their thoughts, opinions and feedback on a public thread where you chose to post.  The fact that they don't like your idea as presented doesn't mean anyone is deliberately trying to shut you down or your idea.  It just means that they don't like it as presented and are offering you their critique in order to help you refine your idea.  You seem to be taking that as some personal slight, and any disagreement as a personal insult and attack on you.  It isn't.  The only person I've seen in here saying they don't care what others want or what they think is you.  That's a good indicator of where the problem is.

 

You don't like the idea. Lol I heard you. Just let it go.

[Excraft]

9 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Frankly it's a pretty basic concept. It allows for build combinations that aren't possible now, particularly at low levels.

 

I'll ask again, how is that "breathing new life into old content" and "making lower levels more palatable" when in terms of actual game play in how this would work, it's the same thing as we have now? 

[battlewraith]

10 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

I'll ask again, how is that "breathing new life into old content" and "making lower levels more palatable" when in terms of actual game play in how this would work, it's the same thing as we have now? 

 

This exact question was answered earlier in the discussion. It's not the same thing we have now, if it was people wouldn't be complaining. Or rather, people would still be complaining but not about the disruption to the leveling progression.

[Bionic_Flea]

42 minutes ago, Excraft said:

 

Yeah, good luck with that.  I don't see this happening here.  I think one of the other servers is set up this way though!

 

A dreamer's gotta dream, bruh!  Why are you showing me the door?

[Ghost]

I personally don’t like it.

But that because I don’t like (maybe even hate) any idea that allows already godlike toons to become even more godlike.

 

Sound selfish?  Probably, but I don’t care.

Now let me hear about ways to make lower level content harder….and I’m all in!

 

 

[tidge]

I don't think the suggestion is a good one for this game:

 

On 3/11/2025 at 12:26 PM, battlewraith said:

1. To make lower level content palatable again for veteran players that are used to using IO builds that don't gas out constantly. And overcome the irritation of having to take powers that you know you'll skip later, wait for things you like, etc.

 

2. Enable greater build diversity. Allow players to cobble together exotic builds that are precluded by the current system.

 

3, Increased novelty/narrative diversity. Instead of this measured increase in power that is the normal logic of the game, maybe you have a character that can barely control their powers and just nukes every couple of minutes. Maybe a super glass cannon character that only has attacks but can rise from the dead periodically. People would have a lot more options to play with.

 

#1 I don't know what the OP is considering "lower level content", I'm going to proceed with teh assumption that the 'upper limit' on "lower level" is far below level 49. I'm a veteran player who plays with lower level content. I find it all completely palatable, no matter if I am encountering it organically via leveling up, or revisiting via exemplar/Ouro/TF/whatever.

 

#1b At most, I end up with one power I am not going to use/use minimally in a Level 50 build. My hot take is: if there are more than one of the first four powers (T1, T2 from primary and secondary) that are completely useless for a player... the player has likely picked the wrong AT and almost certainly isn't really interested in low level content... which is easily handled by low tier powers and/or START vendor freebies. The most reliable case when *I* end up with a T1/T2 power that is nigh-but-useless is on perma-Dominators, because the one of the first three power choices ends up being a poor choice (for me, MMV) for dedicating many slots towards as I chase sufficient +Recharge set bonuses.

 

#2 Build's can already be pretty diverse (suggestion: Skip Hasten and the Fighting pool).

 

#2b The sort of 'exoctic builds' implied by a "lemme have T6, T7, T8, T9, powers with no prerequisites" would pretty much imbalance the game for content in which the enemies don't also have access to such tier powers, e.g. at "low levels".

 

#3 This appears to be a rationalization for #2 that really wouldn't be born out by the game. The reason a level 4 Blaster "doesn't have control of their nuke" is, like-it-or-not, narratively explained by not having a nuke. IIRC "Every couple of minutes" was the pre-sunset timing on Blaster nukes!

[tidge]

On 3/14/2025 at 8:02 AM, ZacKing said:

Let's try another approach here.  One of the stated goals for saga mode is to "breathe new life into old content" by making "lower level content palatable again".  Let's say I want to roll an Axe/Shield scrapper.  I start out by picking Beheader and Deflection.  I run around Atlas Park and defeat some mobs to hit level 2. I visit Miss Liberty and start leveling up.  At level 2 I pick Chop.  I pick up a door mission and head over to the location.  I'm in the mission, clicking Chop and Beheader, wait for them to recharge so I can click them again, rinse and repeat moving from mob to mob until the mission is done.  I repeat this process as I run more door missions.

 

Now, let's say I decide to roll another Axe/Shield scrapper using saga mode.  I start out by picking Beheader and Deflection.  I run around Atlas Park and defeat some mobs to hit level 2. I visit Miss Liberty and start leveling up.  At level 2 I pick Cleave since it's available instead of Beheader.  I pick up a door mission and head over to the location.  I'm in the mission, clicking Chop and Cleave, wait for them to recharge so I can click them again, rinse and repeat moving from mob to mob until the mission is done.  I repeat this process as I run more door missions.

 

What's "new" in that scenario and how is it "breathing new life into old content"?  I'm still waiting around for powers to recharge, hoping my attacks land and I don't get destroyed waiting around for attacks to recharge.  How is that "more palatable"?

 

On one hand, I appreciate the effort to prop up a (IMO, very weak) "breathe new life into old content" argument, but ^this^ is isn't helping IMO. Reasons?

 

#1. This example is almost certainly the same AT with the exact same choice of primary and/or secondary. If a player is going to roll up nothing but these sorts of characters (i.e. duplicates of what they have already played), I don't think it is the game that is unreasonably limiting the player choices.

 

#2 This argument is entirely focused on a level range (level 1-3) before power pools become unlocked at level 4, when all that in-game diversity becomes available to builds. Is this hypothetical player really seeking more build diversity solely to "breathe more life" into City Hall contacts? You can't even get a newspaper or radio contact at these levels, never mind that players at these levels can't accumulate debt.

 

 

[battlewraith]

31 minutes ago, tidge said:

#1 I don't know what the OP is considering "lower level content", I'm going to proceed with teh assumption that the 'upper limit' on "lower level" is far below level 49. I'm a veteran player who plays with lower level content. I find it all completely palatable, no matter if I am encountering it organically via leveling up, or revisiting via exemplar/Ouro/TF/whatever.

 

So there's a lot of this type of response in the thread, which basically boils down to "I enjoy the content as is, therefore I don't support this idea."

I'm not running a poll. I would be interested in some market research to assess what the actual playerbase as a whole would be into, but I'm not put off by the tiny portion of forumgoers not liking the idea. 

 

Imagine you had an idea for something like a new badge. And then I post that I'm a veteran player who feels that badges are a waste of time and actually detrimental to the game itself in a number of ways. Then imagine there were 10 of me in your thread saying the same thing. Is the idea therefore bad? No. It just means that rationally you should be talking about logistics of the idea and not people's subjective preferences. 

 

50 minutes ago, tidge said:

#1b At most, I end up with one power I am not going to use/use minimally in a Level 50 build. My hot take is: if there are more than one of the first four powers (T1, T2 from primary and secondary) that are completely useless for a player... the player has likely picked the wrong AT and almost certainly isn't really interested in low level content... which is easily handled by low tier powers and/or START vendor freebies. The most reliable case when *I* end up with a T1/T2 power that is nigh-but-useless is on perma-Dominators, because the one of the first three power choices ends up being a poor choice (for me, MMV) for dedicating many slots towards as I chase sufficient +Recharge set bonuses.

 

Reading this, I don't think you get the point. I've played all the ATs over the course of two decades. I've got expensive builds for most of them. Given the age of the game and the extent to which people grind things in it, my roster of 50s is paltry compared to a lot of people. So the notion that ooops I picked the wrong AT is silly. As is the notion that I'm not really interested in low level content--when I like most people can easily bypass it and this is a suggestion of what I think might make that content interesting to me. I'm an outlier here in terms of preference. I doubt that I'm as much of an outlier outside of these forums. But it doesn't really matter either way, it's just an idea.

 

I also think you bring up another aspect to this--the plethora of prestige powers, buffs, etc. that lowbies can access to boost early level performance. The lowbie mobs weren't initially balanced for that either. But people don't like the grind, these things were added as a result, and now people take them for granted as part of the game balance.

 

1 hour ago, tidge said:

#3 This appears to be a rationalization for #2 that really wouldn't be born out by the game. The reason a level 4 Blaster "doesn't have control of their nuke" is, like-it-or-not, narratively explained by not having a nuke. IIRC "Every couple of minutes" was the pre-sunset timing on Blaster nukes!

 

A strength of the game, part of it's enduring appeal, is that it enables people to creatively engage with it to tell their own stories. The thought there was that I would have a character that discovered he could explode. Initially he could only do it once in a while, but with training he struggled to control it so that he could do it more often and in a more limited capacity (eg blasts). Do you want to police that story? Would you read someone's bio ingame, then message them saying "sorry, I don't think the narrative implicit in the game mechanics really fits with what you wrote there."

[tidge]

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

A strength of the game, part of it's enduring appeal, is that it enables people to creatively engage with it to tell their own stories. The thought there was that I would have a character that discovered he could explode. Initially he could only do it once in a while, but with training he struggled to control it so that he could do it more often and in a more limited capacity (eg blasts). Do you want to police that story? Would you read someone's bio ingame, then message them saying "sorry, I don't think the narrative implicit in the game mechanics really fits with what you wrote there."

 

A strength of the player is that they can use their own imagination to self-explain their wide plethora of power choices within a necessarily balance, by character level, set of necessary restrictions.

 

If I saw level two characters throwing nukes around on a DFB, my thoughts would be more likely to be "there goes somebody looking for an 'easy win' button" than "what a powerfully clever decision to take a nuke at level 2."

[battlewraith]

9 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

A strength of the player is that they can use their own imagination to self-explain their wide plethora of power choices within a necessarily balance, by character level, set of necessary restrictions.

 

If I saw level two characters throwing nukes around on a DFB, my thoughts would be more likely to be "there goes somebody looking for an 'easy win' button" than "what a powerfully clever decision to take a nuke at level 2."

 

I don't mean this as an insult, but I think this is a very clear indication of your mindset. You're viewing that behavior from a standpoint of "do they deserve it?" "Is that miniscule amount of xp actually properly earned"? I think you would absolutely see people throwing around nukes at that level because it would be fun. And different from the 100s if not 1000s of DFBs where you got your 2x xp buff and then dutifully pulled out your sands of Mu and blackwand and then ran through a bunch of the same mobs again. 

 

You're looking at this as an easy win in the same world where someone can sit in a farm and do nothing at all and get far better rewards. Even joining a higher level team is more lucrative and would be more or less the same. If I run with a bunch of powerful characters in PI, that nuke is not going to make a damn bit of difference. It is about amusement for the person doing it, not the traditionalist bystander who is shaking their head at this breach of the proper way.

 

[Excraft]

7 hours ago, battlewraith said:

Frankly it's a pretty basic concept. It allows for build combinations that aren't possible now, particularly at low levels.

 

I'll ask one more time, how does your idea "breathe new life into old content" and "make lower levels more palatable"?  From what I can see, it doesn't achieve that beyond a very brief kitsch factor of having higher tier powers at lower levels.  So what?  That "fun" will fade very quickly as the game play itself and mission content remains exactly the same.  So you used Total Focus instead of Barrage at level 3 or Inferno instead of Fire Blast at level 6.  Again, so what?  That's not changing anything about the game play itself.  How long will that "fun" last?

 

Some more questions:

1. Where is the incentive to actually play the content using saga mode in lieu of just PLing a sage mode alt in AE to finish the build first?  
2. Where/what is the tangible reward for doing playing saga mode?
3. What are some "new and exotic builds" that can be made in saga mode that can't already be made?
4. What's the incentive to continue playing saga mode when you're limited to SOs and will always be outclassed and outperformed by others who are able to take full advantage of the invention system?

 

7 hours ago, battlewraith said:

Why are you still nagging about it? 

 

Again, this is a you problem.  People are offering their perspective, not to personally attack or insult you, but to have a discussion and perhaps make refinements to your idea.  Do you think your idea is perfect as is?  Ok, good for you.  It isn't.  I'll continue to say so and offer more feedback for you. 

 

5 hours ago, tidge said:

On one hand, I appreciate the effort to prop up a (IMO, very weak) "breathe new life into old content" argument, but ^this^ is isn't helping IMO. Reasons?

 

#1. This example is almost certainly the same AT with the exact same choice of primary and/or secondary. If a player is going to roll up nothing but these sorts of characters (i.e. duplicates of what they have already played), I don't think it is the game that is unreasonably limiting the player choices.

 

#2 This argument is entirely focused on a level range (level 1-3) before power pools become unlocked at level 4, when all that in-game diversity becomes available to builds. Is this hypothetical player really seeking more build diversity solely to "breathe more life" into City Hall contacts? You can't even get a newspaper or radio contact at these levels, never mind that players at these levels can't accumulate debt.

 

I don't think you understood the post.  

 

I could be wrong, but as I read it, it's to show that regardless of what powers you pick (whether in saga mode or not), the game play itself is the same.  It's not someone rolling up the same character twice.  It's just to point out the mechanics are the same.  

 

For the second part, it's the same thing as you move up in levels.  If you're making a character and choosing all of the higher level attacks and defenses at early, there's not much left to take as you level up.  Instead of having an upward sloping bell curve in terms of player power with regard to more powerful attacks and more powerful defenses as you go higher in level, saga mode is reversing that curve and putting the player on a downward slope in terms of power and performance.  That issue is exacerbated by limiting you to SOs only.

 

7 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

A dreamer's gotta dream, bruh!  Why are you showing me the door?

 

I suspect you're joking, but in case you aren't, I didn't say that you or anyone else should leave.  Pointing out other servers is more an invitation to check out what others might be doing and seeing if someone finds it fun.  It's not telling anyone to leave here and never come back.

Edited March 15 by Excraft

[PeregrineFalcon]

35 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

. . .that nuke is not going to make a damn bit of difference. . .

I agree with you.

 

The only reason that I disagree with your suggestion is because, as I said before, I believe that it would be a lot of coding work for the devs and ultimately it would not make a damn bit of difference. I hope you can understand why I think that if the devs are going to spend that much time coding that it should be for something that does make a big difference.

[Excraft]

40 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 It is about amusement for the person doing it, not the traditionalist bystander who is shaking their head at this breach of the proper way.

 

That's not sufficient reason enough to toss the core design of the game away. 

[tidge]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

 

I don't mean this as an insult, but I think this is a very clear indication of your mindset.

 

 

I can't tell that you actually understand your own mindset, let alone my mindset. If a player wants an AoE at level 2, pick up some Fragmentation Grenades or a Plasmatic Taser from START.

 

The game is not going to keep a player at low levels very long, and the Blaster 'nukes' can be had at levels 22/26, which exemplar down -5 levels. The OP ask is for an overhaul to the established (and working) power progression tiers for either:

• A desire to simply skip lower damage attacks
• A desire to have higher damage attacks much earlier

Trying to rationalize this via some personal character concept is either narrow-sighted and/or a willingness to toss all semblance of game balance across all the game's content and zones out the window.

 

If this is REALLY what you want, I'll sign the petition for a version of Echo Atlas Park that works like the temporal warriors for Recluse's Victory with insta level 50s that can street sweep to their hearts' delight and can't leave that zone.

[battlewraith]

4 hours ago, Excraft said:

Again, this is a you problem.  People are offering their perspective, not to personally attack or insult you, but to have a discussion and perhaps make refinements to your idea.  Do you think your idea is perfect as is?  Ok, good for you.  It isn't.  I'll continue to say so and offer more feedback for you. 

 

You're not adding anything. You were one of the first people to speak out against the idea. If you can't remember anything, go back and reread the thread.

If you actually don't understand the idea at this point, I can't help you. If you just don't like it--again I can't help you. I'm not here to sell you on it subjectively. 

[battlewraith]

4 hours ago, tidge said:

I can't tell that you actually understand your own mindset, let alone my mindset. If a player wants an AoE at level 2, pick up some Fragmentation Grenades or a Plasmatic Taser from START.

 

This indicates you're not listening because reiterating a point I made earlier and don't seem to get it. The balance and progression you're holding so dear has been changed over the years. Not only have powers become available earlier, powerful set bonuses, procs, and even powers like the ones you mentioned can simply be bought from the vendors. But ermagard at someone under certain circumstances having a nuke early.

 

4 hours ago, tidge said:

Trying to rationalize this via some personal character concept is either narrow-sighted and/or a willingness to toss all semblance of game balance across all the game's content and zones out the window.

 

Again no. This is a mode that people who had unlocked it would experience. It has nothing to do with balance across all the game's content. That was even a criticism leveled at it--that once you passed those early levels the character would probably be weaker than one with IOs. 

 

4 hours ago, tidge said:

If this is REALLY what you want, I'll sign the petition for a version of Echo Atlas Park that works like the temporal warriors for Recluse's Victory with insta level 50s that can street sweep to their hearts' delight and can't leave that zone.

 

Well what I would really like is for you to take your suggestion born of ire and make your own suggestion thread about it, so that it can be discussed on it's own merits. 

If it's just you being sarcastic because you don't approve of my "rationalizations", grow up. Move on. Follow the advice specified in "concerning this forum." The sooner people stop complaining, the sooner it will go away.

[battlewraith]

5 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I agree with you.

 

The only reason that I disagree with your suggestion is because, as I said before, I believe that it would be a lot of coding work for the devs and ultimately it would not make a damn bit of difference. I hope you can understand why I think that if the devs are going to spend that much time coding that it should be for something that does make a big difference.

 

I understand. And I said repeatedly that I didn't expect this to happen. It's meant to be representative of the type of change I would like to see. 

It's ideation. It's not a feasibility study.

[Excraft]

51 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

You're not adding anything.

 

Well yes, I have been. 

 

51 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

You were one of the first people to speak out against the idea. If you can't remember anything, go back and reread the thread.

 

Yes I was and no, I don't need to.

 

51 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

If you actually don't understand the idea at this point, I can't help you. If you just don't like it--again I can't help you. I'm not here to sell you on it subjectively. 

 

I understand your idea just fine.  I understand the sentiment behind it - making the early game "fun" again for you - and I understand why your idea as presented won't work.