Ironheart Trailer

[ShardWarrior]

34 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

That would be a different show with it's own set of issue--probably half workplace melodrama.

 

There is no reason it would have to be.  It would barely even need to be mentioned.  It certainly a better and more relatable profession than turning to crime.  

[TTRPGWhiz]

15 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Tim Pool watched the first three episodes. He said Ree Ree Williams isn't a hero, she's a bad person, and the writing is trash.

 

I am so glad I didn't watch this show.

 

EDIT: never mind lol

Edited yesterday at 11:21 AM by TTRPGWhiz

[battlewraith]

11 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

There is no reason it would have to be.  It would barely even need to be mentioned.  It certainly a better and more relatable profession than turning to crime.  

They could do a lot of things. They could put her in a mansion with a butler. I don't see how these other options would be certainly better and more relatable. Tony Stark started off as an arms dealer. He is certainly responsible for more death and devastation than Riri will do in this series. He changed his mind when he almost got yeeted by one of his own missiles. 

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

I don't see how these other options would be certainly better and more relatable.

 

I can. 

 

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

Tony Stark started off as an arms dealer. He is certainly responsible for more death and devastation than Riri will do in this series.

 

Not quite the same thing as being a criminal stealing from others.

 

16 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Tim Pool watched the first three episodes. 

 

This belongs in that other thread.  

 

 

[BrandX]

13 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

There is no reason it would have to be.  It would barely even need to be mentioned.  It certainly a better and more relatable profession than turning to crime.  

 

To be fair, it doesn't mean it can't be a good show.  Plenty of popular shows about some terrible people and I wouldn't call Riri as terrible as some of those shows (and they're not about supes).  However, I do get facepalm with Riri on this one personally, because she's not some average or even above average person with a lack of option.  She has options and for what she's said she's wanted (which she hasn't said she wants to be a superhero).

[BrandX]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

They could do a lot of things. They could put her in a mansion with a butler. I don't see how these other options would be certainly better and more relatable. Tony Stark started off as an arms dealer. He is certainly responsible for more death and devastation than Riri will do in this series. He changed his mind when he almost got yeeted by one of his own missiles. 

 

He wasn't a criminal tho.  Not to mention, he made the weapons and sold them legally to those who were allowed to use them.  He didn't directly kill anyone.

 

Not to mention, Riri seems to have skipped that part of Tony's history.  Knowing the suits will be turned into weapons.  It's why Tony kept that one invention to himself.  She wants to mass produce them.

[TTRPGWhiz]

5 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

He wasn't a criminal tho.  Not to mention, he made the weapons and sold them legally to those who were allowed to use them.  He didn't directly kill anyone.

 

Not to mention, Riri seems to have skipped that part of Tony's history.  Knowing the suits will be turned into weapons.  It's why Tony kept that one invention to himself.  She wants to mass produce them.

He wasn’t a criminal because his biggest customer was the United States government. The Maximoffs certainly felt differently, and rightfully so.

[battlewraith]

2 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

Not quite the same thing as being a criminal stealing from others.

 

Nope. Several orders of magnitude worse. But still able to come back from it and become this beloved heroic character.

[Ghost]

@TTRPGWhiz

@battlewraith

 

Have either of you watched the show yet?

🤔

[JKCarrier]

The MCU is largely built on redemption arcs:

Peter Parker deliberately let a crook get away.

Tony Stark gleefully built weapons of mass destruction.

Scott Lang went to prison, got out, and immediately fell back into crime.
Natasha Romanov was a literal assassin.

How much death and property damage has Bruce Banner's alter ego caused?
Even Loki (as in, "He Killed 80 People in 2 Days" Loki) gets a chance to be a hero.
But RiRi Williams is irredeemable. Got it.

[battlewraith]

3 minutes ago, Ghost said:

@TTRPGWhiz

@battlewraith

 

Have either of you watched the show yet?

🤔

I won't get to it right away. We typically sub one streaming service at a time and my wife is finishing up some shows on another service. 

[BrandX]

2 hours ago, TTRPGWhiz said:

He wasn’t a criminal because his biggest customer was the United States government. The Maximoffs certainly felt differently, and rightfully so.

 

And Tony didn't fire them off, did he?  Not to mention, Steve says they're fighting for their country.

[BrandX]

11 minutes ago, JKCarrier said:

The MCU is largely built on redemption arcs:

Peter Parker deliberately let a crook get away.

Tony Stark gleefully built weapons of mass destruction.

Scott Lang went to prison, got out, and immediately fell back into crime.
Natasha Romanov was a literal assassin.

How much death and property damage has Bruce Banner's alter ego caused?
Even Loki (as in, "He Killed 80 People in 2 Days" Loki) gets a chance to be a hero.
But RiRi Williams is irredeemable. Got it.

 

Irredeemable?  No.  Of course not.  Still, her reasoning for a genius is terrible.  She's not someone without options.  She's someone with options, she just doesn't like the speed of those options.

 

Though, that said, Peter's redemption, he really didn't do anything wrong (though, I don't think MCU Peter went this route).

 

Tony didn't do anything wrong either.  Just because he felt guilty, is a different thing, but everything he did was legal and he didn't personally fire the weapons.

 

Scott was Robin Hood, stealing from a company that stole from it's employees, then went back into crime, to get an item from a killer.

 

Natasha worked for her government.

 

Bruce Banner, has he had deaths, not sure that's been shown in the MCU, however, the property damage is usually linked to him getting attacked and him getting away.  Harlem?  That was him cleaning up Ross's mess.

[JKCarrier]

22 minutes ago, BrandX said:

Tony didn't do anything wrong either. 

Natasha worked for her government.

So any action that is sanctioned by a government (ANY government) is automatically moral? That's an... interesting view of history.

[battlewraith]

2 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

Irredeemable?  No.  Of course not.  Still, her reasoning for a genius is terrible.  She's not someone without options.  She's someone with options, she just doesn't like the speed of those options.

 

Though, that said, Peter's redemption, he really didn't do anything wrong (though, I don't think MCU Peter went this route).

 

Tony didn't do anything wrong either.  Just because he felt guilty, is a different thing, but everything he did was legal and he didn't personally fire the weapons.

 

Scott was Robin Hood, stealing from a company that stole from it's employees, then went back into crime, to get an item from a killer.

 

Natasha worked for her government.

 

Bruce Banner, has he had deaths, not sure that's been shown in the MCU, however, the property damage is usually linked to him getting attacked and him getting away.  Harlem?  That was him cleaning up Ross's mess.

 

Aside from the issue of how Riri is characterized in this series, the expectation that genius level intellects make good decisions across the board is just wrong. Some of the most clueless people I've met in life were class valedictorians. 

 

Peter Parker did something wrong. The whole point of Spiderman is "with great power comes great responsibility" and he suffered because he didn't act when he should've. 

 

The idea that something isn't wrong because it's legal or because a government sanctions it is incoherent. Your moral compass would be spinning simply from landing in different parts of the world. And you would have no basis for saying that a particular government is correct without appealing to some moral standard external to that government. 

 

 

[ShardWarrior]

3 hours ago, BrandX said:

To be fair, it doesn't mean it can't be a good show.  Plenty of popular shows about some terrible people and I wouldn't call Riri as terrible as some of those shows (and they're not about supes).  However, I do get facepalm with Riri on this one personally, because she's not some average or even above average person with a lack of option.  She has options and for what she's said she's wanted (which she hasn't said she wants to be a superhero).

 

Terrible characters can be related to and understood when they are well written.  Magneto is a prime example.  He does many terrible things, but you can absolutely understand his motivations given what has happened to him and his family.  Riri Williams is not well written for the exact reason you point out.  She is a very bright, very intelligent person who has many options open to her, and options that would not be available to the average person.  She wastes her potential and opportunities. 

 

1 hour ago, BrandX said:

Irredeemable?  No.  Of course not.  Still, her reasoning for a genius is terrible.  She's not someone without options.  She's someone with options, she just doesn't like the speed of those options.

 

Spot on.  

 

[TTRPGWhiz]

1 hour ago, JKCarrier said:

So any action that is sanctioned by a government (ANY government) is automatically moral? That's an... interesting view of history.

And not even IRL history but MCU history. One of the throughlines has always been “you cannot trust the government”. They are the bad guys in like half these movies.

[BrandX]

4 hours ago, JKCarrier said:

So any action that is sanctioned by a government (ANY government) is automatically moral? That's an... interesting view of history.

 

More, o

3 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 

Aside from the issue of how Riri is characterized in this series, the expectation that genius level intellects make good decisions across the board is just wrong. Some of the most clueless people I've met in life were class valedictorians. 

 

Peter Parker did something wrong. The whole point of Spiderman is "with great power comes great responsibility" and he suffered because he didn't act when he should've. 

 

The idea that something isn't wrong because it's legal or because a government sanctions it is incoherent. Your moral compass would be spinning simply from landing in different parts of the world. And you would have no basis for saying that a particular government is correct without appealing to some moral standard external to that government. 

 

 

 

Peter Parker wasn't  required to help.  He felt guilty for it because he could've easily stopped it.  He however, was not guilty of any crime.

 

Being a weapon manufacturer isn't illegal, criminal or evil.  Tony seeing what his weapons did to those on his side and innocent people, had him feeling guilty.  He was never criminal.

 

I'm not saying genius always make good choices, but the one she's making is obviously bad.  She knows it's bad, but she's doing it anyways, because she's under the misguided ideology, that it's okay to hurt and rob others if it means she gets what she wants.

[BrandX]

4 hours ago, JKCarrier said:

So any action that is sanctioned by a government (ANY government) is automatically moral? That's an... interesting view of history.

 

By your logic, every soldier should feel guilty and be a criminal.  Natasha did her job for her government.  She later does the same things for another government and she's a hero.

 

Tony built weapons.  That is neither illegal or criminal now is grounds to be guilty, or else you have to say everyone involved in the making of such weapons are guilty.  Tony felt guilty seeing what those weapons did first hand and because they got into enemy hands (biggest reason).  He felt responsible because he didn't control his own company, Stane had more control of his company than he did, due to Tony trusting him.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, BrandX said:

 

More, o

 

Peter Parker wasn't  required to help.  He felt guilty for it because he could've easily stopped it.  He however, was not guilty of any crime.

 

Being a weapon manufacturer isn't illegal, criminal or evil.  Tony seeing what his weapons did to those on his side and innocent people, had him feeling guilty.  He was never criminal.

 

I'm not saying genius always make good choices, but the one she's making is obviously bad.  She knows it's bad, but she's doing it anyways, because she's under the misguided ideology, that it's okay to hurt and rob others if it means she gets what she wants.

 

Peter Parker was ethically obligated to help. That was the message of the story. 

There is a difference between ethical obligations and legal requirements. You're conflating the two.

 

Arms dealers are one of the most evil and destructive forces on the planet. If your business is selling weapons you have an interest in seeing them used in order to make profit. Arms manufacturers will lobby and back politicians who will support the continued production and use of these weapons. Eisenhower warned of this trend back in the 1960s. 

 

I don't think people here are arguing that 20 year old student Riri is making good choices. It's just hilarious to see that as a dealbreaker when born to wealth and privilege Tony Stark, continues in the family arms business and then in his late 30s realizes that innocent people are being slaughtered by his goods. Oooops!

[ShardWarrior]

31 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Peter Parker was ethically obligated to help. That was the message of the story. 

 

No, he was not ethically obligated to do anything.

[battlewraith]

10 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

No, he was not ethically obligated to do anything.

You clearly don't understand the story.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/With_great_power_comes_great_responsibility

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

You clearly don't understand the story.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/With_great_power_comes_great_responsibility

 

I understand the story perfectly fine and the moral of it.  Again, he was under no obligation to help anyone.  He chose not to and that had consequences he had to live with.

[PeregrineFalcon]

12 hours ago, ShardWarrior said:

This belongs in that other thread.

I didn't know there was another Ironheart thread. Please point me to it.

[PeregrineFalcon]

10 hours ago, Ghost said:

Have either of you watched the show yet?

🤔

I think we both know that they're just automagically taking the other side. And I think we both know why.