A controversial topic: is it time to make all items free?

[tidge]

1 minute ago, battlewraith said:

 

What is the value of the enhancements that you are dropping into the character? 

 

Winters, ATOs and level 50 Purple/PvP recipes I just buy with merits (if they haven't been dropped)... so I guess 450/360 Kinf per Purple/PvP crafting fees? I keep salvage in the base, so I rarely have to use the AH to get any. All the merits (and catalysts) come from just playing the game.

 

I don't really track what they'd cost if I went only to the AH. If there is a loose piece a build needs that I don't have on hand I typically just bid 2 Minf for it... but knowing my own preferences I pretty much always have such pieces (or their recipes, when I want level 50 versions) on hand.

 

My main character probably averages about 100 Merits a day (I don't join Hamidon raids, which would make this trivial)... and merits are a really inefficient way to get all this stuff... but just that one character is sitting on over 9000 merits and 630 Hero merits, not to mention the almost 2000 prismatics, hundred of catalysts, and well over 1 Binf (I do sell stuff on the AH). Typically new level 50s spend about 400 Merits on boosters... but anything leftover gets turned into pieces for future builds. As I noted, I have a handful of other characters I also enjoy playing, they don't hold as much, but they are pretty close. 

 

Aside from a short period of active marketing years ago, new characters have been completely funded by drops from existing characters.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

 

Winters, ATOs and level 50 Purple/PvP recipes I just buy with merits (if they haven't been dropped)... so I guess 450/360 Kinf per Purple/PvP crafting fees? I keep salvage in the base, so I rarely have to use the AH to get any. All the merits (and catalysts) come from just playing the game.

 

I don't really track what they'd cost if I went only to the AH. If there is a loose piece a build needs that I don't have on hand I typically just bid 2 Minf for it... but knowing my own preferences I pretty much always have such pieces (or their recipes, when I want level 50 versions) on hand.

 

My main character probably averages about 100 Merits a day (I don't join Hamidon raids, which would make this trivial)... and merits are a really inefficient way to get all this stuff... but just that one character is sitting on over 9000 merits and 630 Hero merits, not to mention the almost 2000 prismatics, hundred of catalysts, and well over 1 Binf (I do sell stuff on the AH). Typically new level 50s spend about 400 Merits on boosters... but anything leftover gets turned into pieces for future builds. As I noted, I have a handful of other characters I also enjoy playing, they don't hold as much, but they are pretty close. 

 

Aside from a short period of active marketing years ago, new characters have been completely funded by drops from existing characters.

 

So you're rich. None of that is surprising. And it seems like this largesse stems from the fact that you play this game a lot and don't primarily play it to make new characters.

 

Ok so picture your new  character progression. After three weeks of whatever it is you do, you have a new 50. Imagine you don't have a vault full of gold available to just drop enhancements in there. So you're going to have to earn it some way. What's that going to take, another couple weeks to grin...err "play the game" in order to afford the stuff. So maybe a month and a half total effort to get a fully slotted 50. For a casual that wants to play a specific lvl 50 build, that's a month and a half of bullshit just to get to the content they want to do. 

Why not just make the stuff free? Because the longterm hoarders and addicts, who are drowning in merits and effectively have the experience of free stuff want other people to have to jump through hoops. 

 

Granted, requesting free stuff in a video game is bonkers. Why is this case an exception--because the game is over 20 years old.

[tidge]

10 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Ok so picture your new  character progression. After three weeks of whatever it is you do, you have a new 50. Imagine you don't have a vault full of gold available to just drop enhancements in there. So you're going to have to earn it some way. What's that going to take, another couple weeks to grin...err "play the game" in order to afford the stuff. So maybe a month and a half total effort to get a fully slotted 50. For a casual that wants to play a specific lvl 50 build, that's a month and a half of bullshit just to get to the content they want to do. 

 

You are inventing a strawman: a brand new player that doesn't want to play the game and jump to 50 and buy the world. If a new player wants to play, they will accumulate stuff for their character.... if they get to 50 it will be even easier. 

 

*If* that "casual" strawman becomes a real boy... because somehow they "see through the bullshit"?... there are plenty of guides how to generate inf to buy the world.

 

If a player wants to casually experiment with a level 50, and have everything free... there is Brainstorm. 

 

The game is already offering everything you want for this ever-shifting argument.

 

 

[battlewraith]

2 minutes ago, tidge said:

You are inventing a strawman: a brand new player that doesn't want to play the game and jump to 50 and buy the world.

 

No I never said a brand new player. Longterm players that are tired of the grind.

I know that's hard for you to imagine (you won't even admit there's grind) but they exist.

 

The Brainstorm argument is a non-starter. People largely continue the game to be around friends and other people in general.

If you want a solo game there are far far better options available. 

 

[tidge]

27 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

No I never said a brand new player. Longterm players that are tired of the grind.

I know that's hard for you to imagine (you won't even admit there's grind) but they exist.

 

So your argument hinges on a long-term player that has neither merits nor inf, and is tired of the grind, and wants a full kit insta-50... and also doesn't know how to achieve this... total strawman, or not clever enough to realize they've been grinding the wrong grind. Is this you?

 

30 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

The Brainstorm argument is a non-starter. People largely continue the game to be around friends and other people in general.

 

Again, is this you? The long-term players who don't have the resources to insta-50 and insta-slot know which other long-term players to ask for help.

[battlewraith]

46 minutes ago, tidge said:

So your argument hinges on a long-term player that has neither merits nor inf, and is tired of the grind, and wants a full kit insta-50... and also doesn't know how to achieve this... total strawman, or not clever enough to realize they've been grinding the wrong grind. Is this you?

 

So now grind is a thing, eh?

What is the right grind oh wise one? How long should it take?

I think it typically takes me a couple weeks to go from rolling a character and having it kitted out. Granted I do a lot of stupid stuff like TFs and I don't like playing the market. 

 

46 minutes ago, tidge said:

Again, is this you? The long-term players who don't have the resources to insta-50 and insta-slot know which other long-term players to ask for help.

 

I'm more interested in why, if the big brained knowledge to insta-50 and insta-slot is out there, it is so important to Daddy Warbucks that people keep paying for things?

Edited Thursday at 12:49 AM by battlewraith

[tidge]

You can't answer any questions, and just want stuff (like "answers") with no effort on your part... I see a pattern.

[battlewraith]

3 minutes ago, tidge said:

You can't answer any questions, and just want stuff (like "answers") with no effort on your part... I see a pattern.

 

You've repeatedly shown a complete inability to engage with the points I've made.

It's pretty simple. Not everyone has the same priorities that you do. You think that if the types of grinding that you, a player sitting on a mound of cash anyways, has a preferred way of grinding resources available to them--then everyone should be content with that. 

 

There are easy solutions--I have three accounts I could just run afk farmers on all of them. Or I could do tedious things like making money on the market. Like I said earlier, it breaks immersion. Saps my will to play. And I think it's a bad strategy to just cater to people like you.

[tidge]

35 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

It's pretty simple. Not everyone has the same priorities that you do. 

 

If you are bored by playing the game your way (i.e. multi-box afk farming, selling items on the market), giving you free stuff is not going to improve your interest in the game... because you've somehow already decided that the game is "3 account afk farming". There is literally a whole game outside of Wentworths and AE that offers all the stuff a player needs to kit out characters, as the player actually plays the game.

 

Even the level 50 content doesn't need full kits of pricey enhancements... or all the accolades... or whatever... if the desire is to "play with friends" even a small group of friends can tackle a whole lot of content. Nobody is gatekeeping anyone! The HC team has done a great job shepherding the economy so that the things that drop (Inf, recipes, merits, etc.) are trivial to convert into other things players can use. You literally only have to pick some content you enjoy and roll with it. If a player is bored with some content, there is plenty more variety to choose from... a lack of a superior winter set isn't stopping anybody.

[battlewraith]

7 minutes ago, tidge said:

If you are bored by playing the game your way (i.e. multi-box afk farming, selling items on the market), giving you free stuff is not going to improve your interest in the game... because you've somehow already decided that the game is "3 account afk farming". There is literally a whole game outside of Wentworths and AE that offers all the stuff a player needs to kit out characters, as the player actually plays the game.

 

FFS....

That is not my way, You kept going on about "clever" ways to make money. Those are things that people could do to easily make money.

You're correct that free stuff would not improve my interest in the game--it would remove a time sink associated with getting to the content I actually want to do.

Conversely, throughout this exchange you've done nothing to explain how free stuff would destroy anyone's interest in the game. In fact, you're sitting on a pile of gold that you can instantly use to enhance whatever you want. This doesn't seem to have ruined your enjoyment of all this wonderful content you keep praising. Why would removing the same hassle for other people be a big deal?

[tidge]

14 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

You're correct that free stuff would not improve my interest in the game--it would remove a time sink associated with getting to the content I actually want to do.

 

You have yet to share either what content you do play that you don't enjoy, nor have you described the content you (might?) enjoy.... the only clues we have is that you like to use the word grind to describe how you play, and that you think "piles of inf" is somehow necessary to enjoying the game. You seem oblivious that the HC devs have already removed recognized time sinks, like prestige for bases, easy travel, incarnate xp, etc. 

[battlewraith]

15 minutes ago, tidge said:

 

You have yet to share either what content you do play that you don't enjoy, nor have you described the content you (might?) enjoy.... the only clues we have is that you like to use the word grind to describe how you play, and that you think "piles of inf" is somehow necessary to enjoying the game. You seem oblivious that the HC devs have already removed recognized time sinks, like prestige for bases, easy travel, incarnate xp, etc. 

 

My main interest is making new characters. I plan the character in mids and then level them. Probably 75% get pled straight to 50 and the others are a mix of standard missions and PLing. To finance a new build, I run weeklies, Tinpex, Market Crash, radios, or whatever random shit seems to be going on. Also Incarnate stuff. During the Valentines Event I ran that blue wedding on 8 different characters every morning. 

 

If the goal is to outfit the build the way I planned, then yes it takes piles of inf. I don't know what's hard to grasp about that.

I'm not oblivious to the devs removing some timesinks--I already mentioned it to you earlier in the discussion. 

 

If money is not necessary to enjoy the game, why would free stuff be a problem?

[JKCarrier]

17 hours ago, battlewraith said:

My main interest is making new characters. I plan the character in mids and then level them.

Ok, but once you have that perfect, fully-slotted 50, do  you actually do anything with them? Is there any content you run just for pleasure, or is every second you're not in the character creator just grinding for resources? Because the way you describe it, you could skip the game entirely, and just theory-craft in Mids all day.

[battlewraith]

29 minutes ago, JKCarrier said:

Ok, but once you have that perfect, fully-slotted 50, do  you actually do anything with them? Is there any content you run just for pleasure, or is every second you're not in the character creator just grinding for resources? Because the way you describe it, you could skip the game entirely, and just theory-craft in Mids all day.

 

Once the character is 50 and slotted out, I'm then doing incarnates. Beyond that, it depends on how much I like the character. If I like it, I'll just play it for a while. It probably depends on how much time I actually have for gaming at the moment, whether or not I get inspired to roll something else, etc. It's not unusual, most of my longterm friends from the game are like this. 

 

On the other hand, if i told you that I just logged in every day for a bit to buy and sell thing in the AH--that would be weird to me. Why would you play a superhero MMO in order to do that? But I don't see many people here thinking its weird to skip over the majority of the game content to do so. 

[JKCarrier]

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 It's not unusual, most of my longterm friends from the game are like this. 

 

On the other hand, if i told you that I just logged in every day for a bit to buy and sell thing in the AH--that would be weird to me.

I have a hard time relating to either approach. I don't plan my builds at all, I just grab a couple power sets that sound interesting or thematic, and dive into the game. I enjoy the leveling-up process, unlocking new powers, seeing how they work together (or don't), figuring out a good attack chain, etc. That process is interesting to me. I tried Mids a couple of times, but you kind of have to know what you want ahead of time, and I never know -- I'd rather find out by playing. My characters are never optimal, but they are the sum of their experiences, good and bad. They've had a life. Power-leveling a toon from zero to godhood in 15 minutes is of no interest to me. They'd be a stranger.

I do the barest minimum of marketeering. The last thing I do before I log off a session is to go to my base, vendor anything that can be vendored, and convert any merits into something easy to sell, like Converters or Unslotters. Then I go to the AH and throw them on there at "sell it now" prices, collect my inf, and log off. It takes literally a minute. That gets me enough money to easily cover common IOs or cheap sets, with some left over to gift to my next alt.

 

Alas, I don't think the game can accommodate both your philosophy of "I Want It All Now" and mine of "Getting There is Half the Fun".

[Ukase]

On 7/4/2025 at 4:49 PM, Ghost said:

Once new players make it to their first 50, and actually play it - they’ll forget all about ever having money woes.

I never forgot. I still remember being level 40, talking to Ghost Falcon or whatever the store name guy is on PI, and I had enough for 10 SOs, maybe. That was it. I wasn't happy. Not that it mattered much. But I wasn't smart enough at the time to know how little it mattered. I got there fairly quickly though. 

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

I never forgot. I still remember being level 40, talking to Ghost Falcon or whatever the store name guy is on PI, and I had enough for 10 SOs, maybe. That was it. I wasn't happy. Not that it mattered much. But I wasn't smart enough at the time to know how little it mattered. I got there fairly quickly though. 

Let it go, so the healing can begin

[battlewraith]

2 hours ago, Ukase said:

I never forgot. I still remember being level 40, talking to Ghost Falcon or whatever the store name guy is on PI, and I had enough for 10 SOs, maybe. That was it. I wasn't happy. Not that it mattered much. But I wasn't smart enough at the time to know how little it mattered. I got there fairly quickly though. 

 

That's the video game equivalent of "when I was a kid, I had to walk 2 miles uphill in the snow to get to school."

We are now long past the retail subscription days, so the actual justification for time sinks (making a company money) is over. 

So why is it so important to preserve this annoying experience for future generations of players?

Particularly when the people most adamant about keeping the status quo are themselves far beyond concerns about being able to afford things. 

[Ukase]

18 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

So why is it so important to preserve this annoying experience for future generations of players?

I'll try to explain. It's not really important to me that other experience this annoyance. But my concern is if they don't invest the time or effort into their characters, they'll abandon them that much more easily. Is Sunk Cost Fallacy real? It must be, or the term wouldn't exist. But, just as I say it, I'm sure there's also a portion of new players who say to themselves, or even in help chat "Screw this grind", and log off anyway, some to never return. 

I wish I had a solution that would please everyone, but it doesn't exist. We cannot please everyone all the time. Hard enough to do it once. 

There's a ton of new players out there. I've been doing what I can to help them - like giving each one 200M to start their journey if they actually adhere to instruction and get Cadaver Cleanser in DFB. I don't mention it at all until the badge is won, if it's won. If they don't get it, I don't say anything. If they do, I mention I'll help them with some starter inf. Most are thinking it's a paltry 1 or 2 m, which is a ton to a new player. But I know not all the folks in dfb are brand new. 200M can help a player get just about all the want except maybe a ton of purples and some pricy HOs, at least for that character. Or, if someone gets the kill shot on the drop ship in the msr. If I'm close enough to see it in my system chat, I'll just send to them. Sometimes, I even get a thank you, or a "Thank, but no need" and they send it back. 

[tidge]

21 hours ago, Ukase said:

I'll try to explain. It's not really important to me that other experience this annoyance. But my concern is if they don't invest the time or effort into their characters, they'll abandon them that much more easily. Is Sunk Cost Fallacy real? It must be, or the term wouldn't exist. But, just as I say it, I'm sure there's also a portion of new players who say to themselves, or even in help chat "Screw this grind", and log off anyway, some to never return.

 

One of the reasons I enjoy playing new characters to 50 through content (i.e. "playing the game") is because I find this approach to be an excellent way to see how powers actually work, alone or in combination, and get a feel for how the game's AI handles them... not to mention I get to play with slotting as I level to get a feel for them. I also get to see how I can address shortcomings in a build as I level up the character. Plus, I'm getting rewards I can use for that character.

 

I know that there are self-proclaimed MIDS-wizards who feel that they can make a perfect level 50 for any AT, any combination... but there are also Fantasy Football Sports Radio enthusiasts who think they can GM a pro Football team to a a Superbowl victory every year. I've certainly got common slotting choices I make for my level 50 builds... but it is pretty common that I end up tweaking my "default" set of choices because I've tried some new things on the way up. I find the game to be fun while leveling up... CoX isn't like other MMORPGs where the game doesn't start until the character is max-level and full-kit.

 

I simply can't reconcile someone being "bored with repeated play" and that player not already having accumulated stuff to kit a level 50. Even if a player is simply PLs alts to 50 in AE should also be accumulating rewards like Inf and drops... if this sort of PL is seen as a grind, step out of AE (or the Mapserver/ToT League) and try some content.

[battlewraith]

20 minutes ago, tidge said:

I simply can't reconcile someone being "bored with repeated play" and that player not already having accumulated stuff to kit a level 50.

 

There's no argument here, lol. Basically, this thread is just people repeating the fact that they can't relate to how others play the game. You can't reconcile the idea that someone doesn't want to grind content but also can't just instantly kit out a new 50 (which ironically you can whenever you want because you rich. Maybe as a thought experiment, picture the vault being empty).

 

39 minutes ago, tidge said:

I find the game to be fun while leveling up... CoX isn't like other MMORPGs where the game doesn't start until the character is max-level and full-kit.

 

For a lot of coh players, the game is like that. Because they've been playing it for decades at this point. They can do flashback content and all the tweaking they like post 50. There is no reason to fumble around with the lowbie content before then, which will almost certainly involve taking powers and slottings that you know you're going to respec out of later.

 

22 hours ago, Ukase said:

But my concern is if they don't invest the time or effort into their characters, they'll abandon them that much more easily

 

I think this is the most common objection to proposals to skip grind and I think it's pretty clearly false. I think things like farming and PLing actually have kept players around that would have left if those options weren't available. People are going to like the gameplay or not. The idea that making them go slow (whether they want to or not) will make them appreciate it more is this weird pipe dream. Particularly in light of how old this game is and how many options there are in terms of games. 

[tidge]

1 minute ago, battlewraith said:

For a lot of coh players, the game is like that. Because they've been playing it for decades at this point. They can do flashback content and all the tweaking they like post 50. There is no reason to fumble around with the lowbie content before then, which will almost certainly involve taking powers and slottings that you know you're going to respec out of later.

 

But that isn't the game, so why should we toss out rewards just because people don't want to play the game they are given. Those players can go to Brainstorm. If they want to team, they don't need full-kit level 50s.

[battlewraith]

27 minutes ago, tidge said:

But that isn't the game, so why should we toss out rewards just because people don't want to play the game they are given. Those players can go to Brainstorm. If they want to team, they don't need full-kit level 50s.

 

The game I was given didn't have IOs. It didn't have a market. It didn't have travel power available right out of the gate. 

The game changed because of what people wanted. And after subscriptions ended, it changed even further. 

 

"tidge says you don't need something."

My guess is that tidge will be happily grinding for as long as the lights stay on. I don't think you are the type of player they need to be worried about retaining.

Proposals like this are aimed at maintaining other segments of the playerbase that are less likely to stay. 

Who knows, if everything is still here in 10 years maybe they'll be content with 500 regular codgers who like to party like it's the early 2000s. 

Edited Saturday at 01:39 PM by battlewraith

[tidge]

35 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

My guess is that tidge will be happily grinding for as long as the lights stay on. I don't think you are the type of player they need to be worried about retaining.

Proposals like this are aimed at maintaining other segments of the playerbase that are less likely to stay. 

Who knows, if everything is still here in 10 years maybe they'll be content with 500 regular codgers who like to party like it's the early 2000s. 

 

Playing the game from level 1-50 isn't grinding. The game at launch didn't have 40+ content!

 

Since we've now degenerated into unsubstantiated, unprovable claims: I believe it is more likely true the sort of people who would give up CoX because they can't insta-50 with all free stuff are more likely to sooner give up CoX than people who enjoy playing the game from 1-50.

 

Nobody (including the game itself) is gatekeeping or forcing "grinding". Furthermore, nothing restricts players from content except for very limited circumstances:

• Alignment restricted content (trivially addressed, although low level gold-side starters have it harder)
• Limited amount of incarante content (which doesn't require "slotting" with stuff on the AH)

I'm not some Uncle Pennybags sipping port, smoking cigars and laughing at the @Battlewraith roster of unplayed, unloved, unwashed, sub-par level 50s hanging out in AE... I'm playing the game, collecting rewards as I go, jamming with pals, and kitting out characters with what the game is dropping in my lap. Maybe the game would seem to be less of a grind for your roster if you took them out and played something other than AE farms Tinpex?

 

If this game bores you, giving you free stuff isn't going to make the game less boring to you.

 

[battlewraith]

11 minutes ago, tidge said:

Since we've now degenerated into unsubstantiated, unprovable claims: I believe it is more likely true the sort of people who would give up CoX because they can't insta-50 with all free stuff are more likely to sooner give up CoX than people who enjoy playing the game from 1-50.

 

I don't disagree. But again you miss the point. The people who, after 20 years of playing, would leave because they can't skip over repetitive content or played out incentives will be gone sooner than the crowd who is content to do the same things, over and over, while pointlessly filling the vault with stuff that the don't actually need, until the Grim Reaper comes and pries it from their grasp. The latter group will absolutely be the last ones standing. I just think the intransigence of their hoarding ways will hasten the decline of the community.

 

22 minutes ago, tidge said:

I'm not some Uncle Pennybags sipping port, smoking cigars and laughing at the @Battlewraith roster of unplayed, unloved, unwashed, sub-par level 50s hanging out in AE... I'm playing the game, collecting rewards as I go, jamming with pals, and kitting out characters with what the game is dropping in my lap. Maybe the game would seem to be less of a grind for your roster if you took them out and played something other than AE farms Tinpex?

 

Dang you're right. If I just roll a lowbie and go start killing skulls again...the grind will just go away. LOL.

I was picturing more Scrooge McDuck btw, probably because your avatar is yellow.

 

27 minutes ago, tidge said:

If this game bores you, giving you free stuff isn't going to make the game less boring to you.

 

At least try to put some thought into this.

Parts of the game bore me. Other parts don't. If I were able to fully the boring parts--the game would be less boring.

 

I've asked this before and I don't think I got a clear answer: how would free rewards destroy the game for you? Is the content and gameplay worth doing or not?