A controversial topic: is it time to make all items free?

[battlewraith]

49 minutes ago, tidge said:

For anyone who has played to level 50 and beyond, there is no "grind" involved with getting 99%+ of what is available on the market.

 

I read a couple people saying that in this thread and I'm not sure what they're smoking. Yeah if you have some big stockpile of resources, there is no grind. If you don't, there is a fair amount of grind setting up a new character whether you have 50s or not. 

[tidge]

27 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

I read a couple people saying that in this thread and I'm not sure what they're smoking. Yeah if you have some big stockpile of resources, there is no grind. If you don't, there is a fair amount of grind setting up a new character whether you have 50s or not. 

 

If a player is playing content (even Farming! even below 50!) the game provides a LOT, even if that player never visits the AH. One simple example: Merits can be converted into recipes and some IOs directly. My initial HC character simply ran a lot of content via Ouroboros well below level 50 and accumulated hella many Merits. That character did have something not currently available: the ability to earn Inf at the expense of XP, but I wasn't earning much Inf relatively speaking (such as level 49s could at that time). This ended up funding my next character, and so on. I don't think I decided to make some bank on the AH until maybe my fourth character, as I was having too much fun playing the game without the AH.

 

The "magic" about having a level 47+ is this: once level 50 common IO recipes drop, each of them vendors (on average) for 100Kinf, so it takes little time to accumulate Inf... of course if the player eschews content that rewards merits and also ignores the AH completely, that's being stubborn as opposed to clever.

 

For those two stubborn forum members who insist on never leveling their large stable of alts above 30, and also insist upon upgrading SOs... and complain about these choices... again, I'd judge that to be a "not clever" strategy. If the game is a grind for them, it isn't because they can't afford what they want.

[battlewraith]

12 minutes ago, tidge said:

The "magic" about having a level 47+ is this: once level 50 common IO recipes drop, each of them vendors (on average) for 100Kinf, so it takes little time to accumulate Inf... of course if the player eschews content that rewards merits and also ignores the AH completely, that's being stubborn as opposed to clever.

 

In other words, if they avoid doing things that they don't enjoy the game becomes even more grindy--but that's just them being stubborn and dumb in your estimation.

 

I think stubborn is insisting on the same reward schemes and timesinks, 20 years later, that were intended to keep people paying a subscription. I do agree with other people that have posted that a move like this would cause chaos. It would knock the hamster wheel off it's axis and many long term grinders would be in an existential fog, as if the Old Ones had returned and Cthulhu was coming for their salvage racks. I think they'd still keep playing though. And maybe the devs would be inspired to introduce new minigames or different types of gameplay rather than keep introducing things to grind for. 

[Yomo Kimyata]

4 hours ago, battlewraith said:

I think a clever player would understand that this is actually an indictment of the game. It's saying that, if you remove the grindy aspects, the actual gameplay, design, worldbuilding, etc. doesn't really amount to much of a game.

 

I think @Troo said it nicely in page 1 of this thread, and I will paraphrase, there are a lot of mini-games within this metagame.  Some people find some aspects of some mini-games more enjoyable than others.

[tidge]

10 hours ago, battlewraith said:

In other words, if they avoid doing things that they don't enjoy the game becomes even more grindy--but that's just them being stubborn and dumb in your estimation.

 

I never called players dumb. Stubborn about what they won't do, sure. Unclever because they can't figure out how to play only the content they want without figuring out how to do it.

 

You are going to have to explain how each of the following is simultaneously true:

• A player who doesn't want to play content (which rewards them with powers, slots and means to get enhancements for the powers and slots), and
• A player who wants a full-kit character with all powers, slots, and their preferred enhancements

It looks like one of the poster-children is a player that only wants to play level 50 content... and won't accept anything less than a fully-slotted character... which if is the case, that sort of player is pretty much skipping over a LOT of the game's content just to grind their preferred content. There is nothing wrong with this, but let's not pretend that such a playstyle is being kept behind some gate... Play level 50 content and leverage the rewards from that.

[battlewraith]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

I never called players dumb. Stubborn about what they won't do, sure. Unclever because they can't figure out how to play only the content they want without figuring out how to do it.

 

You're mincing words obviously. It's not convincing. 

It's also a distorted view of the people you're criticizing. People don't avoid things like the AH because their widdle tiny brains are not clever enough to use it to make enough money to skip grinding. They avoid it because they don't like it for some reason. Maybe it breaks immersion. Maybe they ask questions like this: "why am I sitting here engaging with a fake economy when there's a real economy I should be worrying about? "I bought this game to pew pew things with energy bolts, if I'm going to be buying and selling this much, shouldn't I be playing Farmville or something?"

 

Imagine if the devs made pvp the most lucrative way to make money in the game. There would be a shitstorm from the players who hate pvp. And someone would no doubt pour gasoline on the fire by telling these people "well, you're just being too unclever to make money the most optimal way."

 

2 hours ago, tidge said:

You are going to have to explain how each of the following is simultaneously true:

 

You're going to have to explain what this question even means. You're giving me two hypotheticals and asking how they can both be true. True in what sense?

 

This is not rocket science. By way of analogy--you start the game with a bicycle and after progressing though content you end up with the option of building a hotrod. 

And then you either drive the hotrod around all the time, or you repeat the process. Most people will repeat the process.

Over and over and over and over again. For over 2 decades (lol). 

 

So it's inevitable I think for people to ask "is it really necessary for me to have to repeat the same grind I've done for years every time I get inspired to make a new hot rod?"

The people who adamantly answer yes to this question  I think are the ones that would continue to grind away in this game until the lights were turned off, even if there were no further development between now and the end. Which I think leads to the devs to perpetually tinker with balance and throw new in new currencies and cosmetics to get these people to grind for. In other words, more of the same for the low hanging fruit. 

[tidge]

33 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

It's also a distorted view of the people you're criticizing. People don't avoid things like the AH because their widdle tiny brains are not clever enough to use it to make enough money to skip grinding. They avoid it because they don't like it for some reason. Maybe it breaks immersion. Maybe they ask questions like this: "why am I sitting here engaging with a fake economy when there's a real economy I should be worrying about? "I bought this game to pew pew things with energy bolts, if I'm going to be buying and selling this much, shouldn't I be playing Farmville or something?"

 

So your argument is: people don't want to play the game they were given... a game that gives them what they want... so we should just give them stuff they want so they don't have to play the game? You don't need to buy anything to pew-pew with energy bolts... unless you pick an AT that doesn't have energy bolts, at which point the game lets you buy energy bolts (Plasmatic Taser).... but maybe you want those to be free too?

 

 

36 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

This is not rocket science. By way of analogy--you start the game with a bicycle and after progressing though content you end up with the option of building a hotrod. 

And then you either drive the hotrod around all the time, or you repeat the process. Most people will repeat the process.

Over and over and over and over again. For over 2 decades (lol). 

 

Maybe you should buy an analogy, because this free one seems to only be 4/7 complete.

[battlewraith]

12 minutes ago, tidge said:

So your argument is: people don't want to play the game they were given... a game that gives them what they want... so we should just give them stuff they want so they don't have to play the game? You don't need to buy anything to pew-pew with energy bolts... unless you pick an AT that doesn't have energy bolts, at which point the game lets you buy energy bolts (Plasmatic Taser).... but maybe you want those to be free too?

 

No the argument I was making was intended to illustrate that there are different types of players with different motivations. It was a rebuttal to your characterization of other players as unclever and/or stubborn because they won't conform to your standards of how the game should be played.  

 

The indignation here about free stuff is not an answer. It's just you stating your preferences.

 

Imagine I waved my dev wand and made everything free. If that was the case, would there be any reason to play the game? I think there would be, and I think development would be better if it involved introducing fun features that didn't revolve around dangling carrots in front of people that need an excuse to waste time. 

[tidge]

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 

No the argument I was making was intended to illustrate that there are different types of players with different motivations. It was a rebuttal to your characterization of other players as unclever and/or stubborn because they won't conform to your standards of how the game should be played.  

 

Please describe to me what this hypothetical player of yours is going to do in game, given that they aren't motivated enough to have stuff from the AH or base storage, unless that stuff is free. I have no preference on how people play the game, I literally just want to know what you think they are going to be doing that isn't 

 

22 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 because they have done so thousands of times over the course of twenty years. 

 

[battlewraith]

21 minutes ago, tidge said:

Please describe to me what this hypothetical player of yours is going to do in game, given that they aren't motivated enough to have stuff from the AH or base storage, unless that stuff is free.

 

Lol the same sorts of things they do now, except without having to invest x amount of time grinding stuff as a prerequisite.  

 

I think there are probably three types of player relevant to this discussion:

 

Group A: Players who are interested primarily in new experiences or content. These are people who are new to the game or people the will pop back in when there's an update, play the new content, and then leave again.

 

Group B: Longterm players who are still interested in some aspect of the game, provided the grind is not too tedious. So these people are on the cusp. The devs have made a lot of concessions to these people--make travel powers available almost immediately, double xp available all the time, etc. These people still fall off pretty regularly. Either stopping for substantial periods of time or transitioning into Group A.

 

Group C Grinders. The game is about accumulating stuff. Why the hell else would you get online and play a superhero game if it's not to...have racks of stuff sitting in a base somewhere? And if they earned it--by god you should have to too. Grinders on the forums are the first line of defense against the stubborn, unmotivated, unclever masses who for some bizarre reason don't want a fake game job in addition to their real life one. 

 

A proposal like "make certain things free" is aimed at Groups A and B. 

[tidge]

I don't understand the use of the word "grind" to describe playing the game. No one needs to grind to accumulate stuff... just complete content and get rewards. Some minigames don't even need players to complete content: The costume editor is free (up to level 10), the base editor is no cost. 

[battlewraith]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding_(video_games)

[tidge]

Don't bother pointing me to a definition of a word, if you are going to misuse the word: Playing the game generates rewards. You are effectively saying "every part of the game is a grind". 

 

I get it: You are arguing for free stuff (for yourself, or for some hypothetical player), and you think the game is keeping you (or hypothetical players) from doing anything other than "grinding". I don't see it this way. My first engagement with the game generated rewards I used for that first character, and it just so happens that it also generated rewards that I could use for future characters. My experience is not unique, and if players (old or new, but such players cannot be hypothetical) can learn a variety of clever ways to do the same.... none of these strategies require cheats or grinds. There are no "gates" keeping players from these things... they just need to be clever enough to recognize how the content they want to play can yield rewards.

[Ghost]

Are there any games out there that just give you everything?

You don’t have to work towards anything because you start off with everything you need?

[battlewraith]

20 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Are there any games out there that just give you everything?

You don’t have to work towards anything because you start off with everything you need?

Probably the majority of games played throughout human history. Ever heard of a Frisbee? 

The ones that incentivize rewards to towards which you have to work, particularly video games, likely do so to make money off of people's efforts. 

[battlewraith]

41 minutes ago, tidge said:

Don't bother pointing me to a definition of a word, if you are going to misuse the word: Playing the game generates rewards. You are effectively saying "every part of the game is a grind". 

 

I pointed you to a discussion of what the term means, where it comes from, and how it applies to different contexts. It's weird in the first place that I have to explain common video game parlance to you. The fact that a game generates rewards doesn't make it grinding. It's the fact that the game involves routinely repeating the same activities to generate resources or some kind of advancement that makes it grinding. 

 

57 minutes ago, tidge said:

I get it: You are arguing for free stuff (for yourself, or for some hypothetical player), and you think the game is keeping you (or hypothetical players) from doing anything other than "grinding".

 

Lol no. Personally, I'm interested in character builds and how they perform. Gathering resources is requirement for making these builds. If you're not Ritchie Rich marketmeister, a massive farmer, or someone who just plays all the time--you're going to have to grind the necessary resources. You are literally the only person I've ever spoken to about this game who is like "grinding? Gosh what is that?" 

 

And doubling down on the "clever ways" to avoid grinding in this phenomenally easy game is just so silly. The issue is time sinks, not being clever. Maybe you play with cheap builds or don't make that many alts or something.

 

[tidge]

30 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Lol no. Personally, I'm interested in character builds and how they perform. Gathering resources is requirement for making these builds. If you're not Ritchie Rich marketmeister, a massive farmer, or someone who just plays all the time--you're going to have to grind the necessary resources. 

 

No character starts with the ability to slot enhancements, except for the free ones from START. I have a deep suspicion you are tying your personal assessment of "performance" as a finished level 50 build. If you just want to test performance, Brainstorm offers everything for free.

 

33 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

You are literally the only person I've ever spoken to about this game who is like "grinding? Gosh what is that?" 

 

And doubling down on the "clever ways" to avoid grinding in this phenomenally easy game is just so silly. The issue is time sinks, not being clever. Maybe you play with cheap builds or don't make that many alts or something.

 

 

What content do you consider to be a time sink? You've been extremely circumspect about what content you choose to play in CoX. You keep using the word "grinding" but your are describing "playing".

[Ghost]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

Probably the majority of games played throughout human history. Ever heard of a Frisbee? 

The ones that incentivize rewards to towards which you have to work, particularly video games, likely do so to make money off of people's efforts. 

 

Anyways.

You know full well that I’m talking about video games.

If you don’t know the answer, there’s no real reason to chime in.  

 

[battlewraith]

23 minutes ago, Ghost said:

 

Anyways.

You know full well that I’m talking about video games.

If you don’t know the answer, there’s no real reason to chime in.  

 

 

Video games are the same. Mariokart doesn't require you to fill up the gas tank in order to race. Streetfighter doesn't require you to pay for MMA lessons so that your character can do matches. Videogames are a small subset of all games, and games that feature the sorts of things being discussed here are a small subset of all videogames. 

[tidge]

43 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Anyways.

You know full well that I’m talking about video games.

If you don’t know the answer, there’s no real reason to chime in.  

 

Have you no idea what a grind it is to earn the 100Kinf to buy Flying Disc from S.T.A.R.T.? Fun is ruined!

[battlewraith]

5 minutes ago, tidge said:

Have you no idea what a grind it is to earn the 100Kinf to buy Flying Disc from S.T.A.R.T.? Fun is ruined!

 

I think that's probably your disconnect, you're fixated on things like trinkets from the START vendor.

How much do you usually spend on builds and how long does it typically take you to outfit one?

Edited Wednesday at 05:04 PM by battlewraith

[Ghost]

2 hours ago, battlewraith said:

 

Video games are the same. Mariokart doesn't require you to fill up the gas tank in order to race. Streetfighter doesn't require you to pay for MMA lessons so that your character can do matches. Videogames are a small subset of all games, and games that feature the sorts of things being discussed here are a small subset of all videogames. 

You have to earn credits to upgrade your vehicles in MarioKart 

In Streetfighter you can earn upgrades/boosts.

 

Neither game does what I asked, which is give you everything from the start.

Nothing to earn.  Nothing to strive for.

 

 

Edited Wednesday at 07:04 PM by Ghost

[tidge]

Watch! This is how to answer a direct question:

 

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

How much do you usually spend on builds and how long does it typically take you to outfit one?

 

For quite some time, I've been tossing a new character 60Minf + 1 Hero Merit, and then inviting them to the SG.

 

At level 1 I usually buy travel powers, some AoE temp attacks, 3x8 hours of buffs... they usually have something like 30 Minf leftover, this is their 'kitty' to play with. The Hero Merit is strictly to convert into things like unslotters/converter roulette, until the character has accumulated merits from playing content.

 

I don't have many alts, and I like playing them, so it is very typical for me to earn 10 levels of the course of a week. "Outfitting" involves popping into the SG base and picking up enhancements... so maybe 10 minutes? The level 50 respec takes slightly longer, but that is mostly because the new level 50 is dropping in crafted IOs (that will be catalyzed or boosted), to leave enhancements for the next character.

 

Along the way I am vendoring/crafting/AHing drops. Typically by the time I'm level 50 the character has more than the original 60 Minf gift... and I've have weeks of fun play.

[battlewraith]

6 hours ago, Ghost said:

You don’t have to work towards anything because you start off with everything you need?

 

51 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Neither game does what I asked, which is give you everything from the start.

 

I thought you were asking about stuff you needed to play. Also Streetfighter and MarioKart have multiple versions, so I can't comment on all of them. But the ones I've played did not not involve upgrades to the carts or boosts that would carry over into matches. 

1 hour ago, Ghost said:

Nothing to earn.  Nothing to strive for.

 

There's this thing called fun. Have you heard of it?

[battlewraith]

17 minutes ago, tidge said:

I don't have many alts, and I like playing them, so it is very typical for me to earn 10 levels of the course of a week. "Outfitting" involves popping into the SG base and picking up enhancements... so maybe 10 minutes? The level 50 respec takes slightly longer, but that is mostly because the new level 50 is dropping in crafted IOs (that will be catalyzed or boosted), to leave enhancements for the next character.

 

What is the value of the enhancements that you are dropping into the character?