All purpose tanker?

[Zeronthe]

Been playing a spines/fire brute while farming AE and am liking the playstyle. However i'm aware it can be pretty difficult/expensive to get that particular combination to be a "general" kit for content like SF/TF/etc, would anybody be so kind as to recommend a tanker that plays similarly but is easier to get general defense/resists on?

 

Thinking at least S/L/E capped and two damage auras(cause those are fun.) I tried bio/rad for a while and wasn't really enamored with rad unfortunately. Perhaps bio/spines? I'm open to ideas.

[PLVRIZR]

Pretty much anything, but considering your "two damage aura" criteria, I'd suggest:  Bio/Fire or Rad/Fire.  My best (pure damage) tank is Fire/Fire/Pyre, but not as durable as the Bio or Rad versions.

[Zeronthe]

1 hour ago, PLVRIZR said:

Pretty much anything, but considering your "two damage aura" criteria, I'd suggest:  Bio/Fire or Rad/Fire.  My best (pure damage) tank is Fire/Fire/Pyre, but not as durable as the Bio or Rad versions.

 

Hmm, not seeing any auras for fire. I was more referencing things like Quills/genetic contamination/mud pots/etc which are toggle PBAoEs. Interesting food for thought though, thanks.

[Maelwys]

3 hours ago, Zeronthe said:

would anybody be so kind as to recommend a tanker that plays similarly but is easier to get general defense/resists on?

 

Staff. The optimal attack chain grants you constant additional Defense (via Guarded Spin) and Resistance (via Sky Splitter with Perfection of Body).

It's not going to be setting any records for ST damage (although it's getting a bit better on Brainstorm) but it's got a lot of utility and makes it considerably easier for a layered defensive powerset like BioArmor to reach the caps.

 

Also... you don't need double damage aura unless you're AFK farming. Spines and RadMelee aren't great for active damage dealing purposes and they bring little in the way of additional utility aside from Radiation Siphon's Heal.

[Zeronthe]

1 hour ago, Maelwys said:

 

Also... you don't need double damage aura unless you're AFK farming.

 

Yeah, i know. I just find them fun, is all. I personally enjoy the concept of passive AoE damage, even if it isn't doing all the damage in the world. Bare minimum i want at least one, for flavor anyways.

Edited Sunday at 09:08 AM by Zeronthe

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, Zeronthe said:

Yeah, i know. I just find them fun, is all. I personally enjoy the concept of passive AoE damage, even if it isn't doing all the damage in the world. Bare minimum i want at least one, for flavor anyways.

Fair enough.

Luckily two of the currently-top-tier sets for "Active" all-round play have a Damage Aura: Bio Armor (Genetic Contamination DoT; plus Evolving Armor -Res) and Stone Armor (Non-Granite. Mud Pots DoT plus Brimstone Armor Procs). Of those two options... Bio has a hefty chunk of Absorb and more Regeneration/Recovery; but it has a gap in S/L Defense and lowish native resistances to E/N/F/C damage and it really wants as much global recharge as you can throw at it. Stone is far less reliant on global recharge, has native Defense Debuff Resistance and its only real defense hole is in F/C (which is easy to attain via set bonuses); but it has lowish native resistances to S/L/E/N damage (outside of Granite). Bio really wants a secondary offensive powerset that grants +Def and/or +Res (so Titan Weapons; Martial Arts; Staff; Broadsword, Katana, etc.) but Stone can realistically cope with anything (as long as you're taking Tough from the fighting pool and picking up some set bonuses). One of my favourite all-round BRUTES that can AFK AE Tank is a RadMelee/StoneArmor - and that combo would be much more forgiving (and so easier/cheaper to build) on a Tanker.

Radiation Armor is another option; and its resistance spread is very good... but it's got much lower MaxHP and regeneration and zero native defense compared to Bio or Stone; and its AoE damage output from ground Zero and Radiation Therapy is getting drastically reduced in the upcoming new patch on Brainstorm.

Dark Armor may also be a contender - it's getting some love on Brainstorm with the next patch; and has a very solid array of self-healing and damage resistances. But it has no Absorb, low +Defense and no DDR... as well as currently no +MaxHP or +Recovery (although there is a bit coming with the rework on Brainstorm).

Finally... another way to go would be Super Reflexes + Radiation Melee. SR's high Defense, capped DDR and Scaling Damage Resistances can make it almost immortal when slotted up; so the only thing it's missing is a damage aura and some self-healing (which RadMelee provides). Not as offensively powerful; but a very easy ride.

[Psyonico]

If you insist on having a damage aura, I’d say bio or stone are your best armor choices.  Stone is a good balance of defense and offense while Bio leans a Pride more towards offense but can still be built quite tanky.  @Sovera has done some amazing things with their Stone/Fire for beginners build.

 

Invul is usually considered one of the best all around defensive sets, but no damaging aura.  You could pair it with Rad melee to get 1 damaging aura though.

[Sovera]

*wave*

[Zeronthe]

Thanks for the suggestions@Psyonico @Maelwys.

 

I tried a rad/bio brute a while ago to maybe 30 but really wasn't vibing with it. I think it was how slow the set felt while still being largely single target for most things, perhaps i'll need to give it another go. I don't mind the cast times on spines because the long times usually have a pretty big payoff, whereas rad just didn't feel like that to me. I also didn't really care much for irradiated ground being a placed ground AoE, rather than emanating from your character. But maybe i wasn't playing it right.

 

Seems like stone is the way to go here then. Would stone/spines work, you think? I'll have to spin up a character on the test server to see if radiation feels better than when i last played it.

[Psyonico]

I’ve got a stone/spines in the mid 20s, haven’t played it in forever.  It will definitely do what you want it to do.

 

just know that as of right now, Spines is getting hurt pretty bad in the next patch.

 

ok, technically it’s all tanker secondaries, but since they’re specifically nerfing AoEs, and that’s kind of Spines’ thing, it’s getting hurt more than other sets.

[Maelwys]

1 hour ago, Psyonico said:

just know that as of right now, Spines is getting hurt pretty bad in the next patch.

 

ok, technically it’s all tanker secondaries, but since they’re specifically nerfing AoEs, and that’s kind of Spines’ thing, it’s getting hurt more than other sets.

 

I think it's one of the Secondaries that'll be getting off pretty lightly actually. Throw Spines (like Claws' Shockwave) was never affected by the radius changes and they're apparently reverting it on all the other Cones like Ripper. Spine Burst (15ft Base radius) and Quills (dunno why, it just didn't) both never had their radiuses increased by Gauntlet in the first place so also shouldn't see any drop in base damage.

 

The proposed "Overcap" damage reductions, if they remain in place, will affect them however. So if you're hitting more than 5 foes with Ripper or more than 10 with Spine Burst then you'll start to see a reduction in damage compared to what's currently on Live. But Quills and Throw Spines, again, shouldn't be affected as they both have a static target cap.

 

Ironically it's the oddities that made Spines comparatively less OP on Tankers and Scrappers but more attractive on Brutes (e.g. all of its attacks and their DoTs benefit from Fury but not Gauntlet or Crits!) that'll save it from being hit overly hard by the nerf bat.

 

Edited Monday at 06:09 AM by Maelwys

[Zeronthe]

The PBAoEs have standard caps as well which never did seem to increase for tankers in both target count and range(as much as i'd love for them to be higher, thankfully range is going up next patch) so realistically if i was looking for damage brute would be the play. They just play better with passive auras in my opinion. I more or less just wanted something that could get and keep aggro, do a bit of damage, while also not dying in the vast majority of small group content.

 

How does Ice/Spines fare compared to Stone? I've noticed it has comparable defense values to stone, albeit less resists.

Edited Monday at 08:29 AM by Zeronthe

[Maelwys]

5 hours ago, Zeronthe said:

The PBAoEs have standard caps as well which never did seem to increase for tankers in both target count and range(as much as i'd love for them to be higher, thankfully range is going up next patch)

The radius and target count buffs were previously baked into the Gauntlet inherent. They didn't show up in the individual powers other than as a Target cap equation.
(See the the various Tanker AoEs and Cones in CoDv2, which include lines like the below)

Max Targets: 16 - 6 * Source.Mode?(kDisable_GauntletTargetCap)

 

Max Targets Hit                See Expression Above

 

  

5 hours ago, Zeronthe said:

so realistically if i was looking for damage brute would be the play. They just play better with passive auras in my opinion. I more or less just wanted something that could get and keep aggro, do a bit of damage, while also not dying in the vast majority of small group content.

 

How does Ice/Spines fare compared to Stone? I've noticed it has comparable defense values to stone, albeit less resists.

Historically Ice has been seen as one of the worst defensive powersets in terms of damage mitigation. Low resistances (other than to Cold) and low Defense Debuff Resistance. It does have decent +MaxHP and very good Recharge Rate debuff resistances though.

However it's getting some love in the upcoming patch. Icy Bastion is miles better than Hibernate. Rime and Hoarfrost are IMO roughly interchangeable.

Personally I'd still go with Stone due to the additional survivability plus the offensive buffs from Brimstone Armor and Minerals. But good alternative options if you prefer a more Defense focused set are Super Reflexes or Energy Aura (despite some upcoming minor nerfs to Energy Aura).

 

Edited Monday at 01:32 PM by Maelwys

[Psyonico]

I actually really enjoy my Ice/Spines.  The biggest advantage with Stone over Ice IMO is ice only gets 1% defense and 5% resistance to Psi without Energy Absorption stacks and Hoarfrost is significantly harder to perma than Earth’s Embrace for toxic resistance.

 

Energy Absorption can add a chunk of Psi defense, but it’s nothing compared to what Minerals provides.

 

Ice does have Chilling Embrace for extra mitigation via -recharge and -damage though.

[Zeronthe]

15 hours ago, Maelwys said:

The radius and target count buffs were previously baked into the Gauntlet inherent. They didn't show up in the individual powers other than as a Target cap equation.
(See the the various Tanker AoEs and Cones in CoDv2, which include lines like the below)

Max Targets: 16 - 6 * Source.Mode?(kDisable_GauntletTargetCap)

 

Max Targets Hit                See Expression Above

 

 

 

Oh nice, i just took the stats at face value on the skill, guess i should know better lol. Now that their range is showing up on the tooltip on the test server does that mean the max targets are going down? or is that part still part of gauntlet?

 

Quote

Ice does have Chilling Embrace for extra mitigation via -recharge and -damage though.

 

Seems like an interesting pairing. Does the -recharge for spines and ice make a pretty big difference? seems like it'd be easy to get 50%+ recharge reduction on enemies with ice/spines as most spines abilities also reduce recharge.

Edited Tuesday at 01:36 AM by Zeronthe

[Psyonico]

Chilling Embrace provides -32% recharge

Quills is another -8%
Spine Burst is another 8%
 

so, assuming quills and spine burst both hit, there is -48% right there in a PBAoE (chilling embrace is auto-hit)

 

a 50% recharge debuff doubles the time it takes for a power to recharge, for reference.

 

the -recharge cap is 75%, which makes a power take 4x longer to recharge.

 

I believe that Ice/Spines does the most AoE -Recharge for tankers, take Shiver from the Ice Mastery APP (-52% by itself) and only things with serious recharge debuff resistance will not be at or near the floor.

 

 

Hmm, now I’m trying to remember what APp my ice/spines took.

 

[Maelwys]

4 hours ago, Zeronthe said:

Oh nice, i just took the stats at face value on the skill, guess i should know better lol. Now that their range is showing up on the tooltip on the test server does that mean the max targets are going down? or is that part still part of gauntlet?

 

As of the most recent patch on Brainstorm they've taken the enhanced radius and arcs away from the Cones, but left their base damage alone. AoEs on the other hand have had their base damage lowered to match their wider enhanced radius.

The maximum target limit on most Tanker AoEs and Cones is still higher than other ATs, but any hits on targets above the regular limit are now being subject to a major reduction in damage (currently -67%, although we've been asking for that to be made a bit less harsh)

[Zeronthe]

4 hours ago, Psyonico said:

Chilling Embrace provides -32% recharge

Quills is another -8%
Spine Burst is another 8%
 

so, assuming quills and spine burst both hit, there is -48% right there in a PBAoE (chilling embrace is auto-hit)

 

a 50% recharge debuff doubles the time it takes for a power to recharge, for reference.

 

the -recharge cap is 75%, which makes a power take 4x longer to recharge.

 

I believe that Ice/Spines does the most AoE -Recharge for tankers, take Shiver from the Ice Mastery APP (-52% by itself) and only things with serious recharge debuff resistance will not be at or near the floor.

 

 

Hmm, now I’m trying to remember what APp my ice/spines took.

 

 

Really selling me on ice here, sounds pretty cool.

 

I'll give it a go, worst case scenario i just fall back to stone. Thanks all.

[Sovera]

To be honest I never noticed the slows or -recharge doing anything. But though I don't play Ice Armor it has its strong points. While I'm a big proponent of Stone Armor it is rough on the endurance. I'm leveling one intermittently with zero inf or IO transfers and even with one endurance reduction in each attach and all endurance uniques on Health, and two Per Shifters + end mod in Crystal Armor and Stamina my endurance simply evaporates.

 

It's not something as noticeable when playing with twinked gear and having a stack of Recovery Serums, but when every million is precious I haven't bought Recovery Serums and it shows.