Flamethrower-based attack set

[Hawk75]

Yes, I know we have fire blast, fire control, etc. And initially I thought just asking for a flamethrower animation set (since Longbow has one) would work. But those attacks and controls don't really yell "flamethrower." 

 

Flamethrowers are "sticky," and they do have a bit of range to them, but they don't really do things like a fireball or snipe.  Range wise I very much see this fitting sentinels, but it could fit other ranged attack ATs as well. 

 

The attacks should all be classically fire "the only theing better than damage is more damage," with plenty of damage over time emphasizing the "sticky" nature of flamethrower flames. To represent this more and differentiate it from fire blast, having it have a mechanic similar to Beam Rifle's disintigrate where it can spread from one enemy to other enemies in close range (and either set new groups on fire, or keep the DoT going on for longer) would work. 

 

I don't have a full set set up. There'd probably be a standard few single target and likely cone attacks, a burn patch on the floor, that sort of thing. Differentiating it a little would also be a "wall of fire" which would be able to create a wall (which could cross, say, a Crey lab hallway but not the full way across the wide Praetorian Underground sections.) It stays static for several seconds, does the sticky burn damage, but also acts similar to a smoke grenade - enemies on the other side can't really see you through the heat haze and may not aggro or may lose you and turn away.  The "nuke" at the end would probably take a little time, but I keep picturing the character turning (not spinning, but turning somewhat fast anyway) in a circle and creating an ever widening ring of fire around themselves. 

 

I see this really fitting sentinels, honestly, but it would be different enough from fire blast to be fun, plus let you live out your longbow fantasies... no, no tthat one. Not that one either. 

 

(Blame Longbow and Helldivers for the inspiration.) 

[srmalloy]

5 hours ago, Hawk75 said:

Flamethrowers are "sticky," and they do have a bit of range to them, but they don't really do things like a fireball or snipe. 

Reading this, I was immediately struck with the idea that Ignite in the Assault Rifle powerset should be renamed and have the animation tweaked to better represent the power effect. Change the name to "Cold Shot", with the animation having the rifle shoot a jet of liquid fuel to the target location, ending with a short burst of fire to ignite the pool of fuel to burn whatever the fuel was sprayed on. 

[RadiantPhoenix]

I have a name proposal: Napalm Blast (or Napalm Assault, or...)

What I am imagining is:

• One animation set uses a gun, the other animation set does not.
• Attacks inflict -Regen debuffs
• All or most damage is in the form of long (15s+) Fire DoTs, with no initial burst damage
• Like Ice Blast, it has two Location AoE attacks, one of which is the T9. (and yes, these inflict DoTs over time, so the damage feels weak but appears to accelerate)
• Like Ice Blast, it has two Mez attacks, but they inflict Terrorize instead of Hold

[MTeague]

Brutes have 22 primaries.

Scrappers have 21 primaries.

Stalkers have 18 primaries.

Defenders have 17 primaries.

Blasters, Corruptors, and Sentinels, have 15 primaries.

Tankers have 14 primaries.

Controllers and Dominators have 12 primaries. 

 

Masterminds have 7.  

 

Before any other AT gets a new primary, I think Masterminds should either get a new primary, OR, have henchmen reskin options for each primary, OR, have some degree of customization for henchmen, however limited. The devs are of course under no obligation to listen or agree with me, but MM's are definitely in need of some love. 

 

Acknowledgment:  HEATs and VEATs have even fewer primaries, but they were designed from the get-go to have be configurable by 1-2 sets with an extremely large number of power selections. Along with the shapeshifting of HEATs and the Specialization options of VEATs.

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

4 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Brutes have 22 primaries.

Scrappers have 21 primaries.

Stalkers have 18 primaries.

Defenders have 17 primaries.

Blasters, Corruptors, and Sentinels, have 15 primaries.

Tankers have 14 primaries.

Controllers and Dominators have 12 primaries. 

 

Masterminds have 7.  

 

Before any other AT gets a new primary, I think Masterminds should either get a new primary, OR, have henchmen reskin options for each primary, OR, have some degree of customization for henchmen, however limited. The devs are of course under no obligation to listen or agree with me, but MM's are definitely in need of some love. 

 

Acknowledgment:  HEATs and VEATs have even fewer primaries, but they were designed from the get-go to have be configurable by 1-2 sets with an extremely large number of power selections. Along with the shapeshifting of HEATs and the Specialization options of VEATs.

 

On the other hand, if we divide powersets by the number of ATs that use them, we get a very different picture:

• 15 unique Blaster secondaries
• 13 unique Dominator secondaries
• 7 unique MM minion powersets
• 6 control powersets per AT (12/2)
• 5.5 melee damage powersets per AT (22/4)
• 4.25 support powersets per AT (17/4)
• 3.75 ranged damage powersets per AT (15/4)
• 3 armor powersets per AT (15/5)

 

[Wavicle]

17 minutes ago, MTeague said:

Before any other AT gets a new primary, I think Masterminds should either get a new primary, OR, have henchmen reskin options for each primary, OR, have some degree of customization for henchmen, however limited. The devs are of course under no obligation to listen or agree with me, but MM's are definitely in need of some love. 

 

It's not that I disagree, but realistically we ARE going to get more non-MM sets (many of which can easily be given to three or four ATs at once) before we get another MM primary. The amount of work relative to ROI (in the creative sense) just isn't worth it.

But I would also love to see a couple more MM primaries.

[Wavicle]

2 minutes ago, RadiantPhoenix said:

• 6 control powersets per AT (12/2)
• 5.5 melee damage powersets per AT (22/4)
• 4.25 support powersets per AT (17/4)
• 3.75 ranged damage powersets per AT (15/4)
• 3 armor powersets per AT (15/5)

 

I don't think averaging them out like that makes much sense.

[RadiantPhoenix]

9 minutes ago, Wavicle said:

 

I don't think averaging them out like that makes much sense.

I think it makes more sense than merely counting them.

The actual problem with MM diversity is (as mentioned) that pet customization is extremely restricted. (a problem shared with Controllers and Dominators)

Edited 19 hours ago by RadiantPhoenix

[Wavicle]

Well, no matter how you look at it, masterminds definitely have the fewest primaries by a wide margin.

 

Yes, pet customization is long overdue.

 

There was a suggestion in someone else’s thread, allowing masterminds to custom choose their primary attacks as well… separate from which pets they were using.

 

I don’t think the actual way they suggested doing it would work, but that would be a way to increase the variety of masterminds without having to build a new pet set. You could have the special effect (minus regen for bots, plus crit for ninjas, etc.) be baked in depending on pet set while allowing for more personal attack variety.

[RadiantPhoenix]

2 hours ago, Wavicle said:

Well, no matter how you look at it, masterminds definitely have the fewest primaries by a wide margin.

We were just discussing how there is at least one way of looking at things where Masterminds actually have the most. 

(Excluding some powersets that are only ever Secondary)

Edited 16 hours ago by RadiantPhoenix

[Rudra]

57 minutes ago, RadiantPhoenix said:

We were just discussing how there is at least one way of looking at things where Masterminds actually have the most. 

(Excluding some powersets that are only ever Secondary)

The reason why that doesn't work, or make any sense at all for that matter, is because no matter how you choose to work things to show MMs as having the most power sets, it is quite obviously not true. Yes, blast sets are shared in some fashion across Blasters, Corruptors, Defenders, and Sentinels. MMs don't get them though. Neither do Brutes, Controllers, Dominators, Scrappers, Stalkers, or Tankers. So the whole 3.75 ranged sets across all ATs? Is pure nonsense. Armor sets are shared in some fashion across Brutes, Scrappers, Sentinels, Stalkers, and Tankers; but no other AT gets armor sets. (Edit: Please note that I am not counting EATs as they are intentionally built differently than regular ATs.) So that throws out your 3 armor power sets per AT nonsense too. It doesn't matter that ATs without armor sets can typically get an armor power out of their epics. Or from the Fighting pool. Their epic sets are not an armor set, they simply have an armor power in some of their epic sets.

 

So your attempt to average the power sets across ATs and just look at uniques ignores that sets are not across all ATs, and except for EATs which get to basically build themselves to be whatever they want so they get the least number of sets, MMs are effectively dead last in variety. How many different varieties of Blaster can you make? Well, they get 15 different choices just for primaries before they start mixing and matching sets with their secondaries. How many different ways can you build an MM? They have 7 different primaries before they start mixing and matching sets with their secondaries.

 

Edit:

Here, let's have some fun:

Blasters: 15 primaries x 15 secondaries = 225 different ways to build before power pools

Controllers: 12 primaries x 17 secondaries = 204 different ways to build before power pools

Defenders: 17 primaries x 15 secondaries = 255 different ways to build before power pools

Scrappers: 21primaries x 14 secondaries (not counting Shield Defense) = 294 different ways before adding in Shield Defense combos to build before power pools

Tankers: 13 primaries (not counting Shield Defense) x 22 secondaries = 286 before Shield Defense combos to build before power pools

Brutes: Same as Tankers except we swap what is primary and secondary

Corruptors: Same as Defenders except we swap what is primary and secondary

Dominators: 12 primaries x 13 secondaries = 156 different ways to build before power pools

Stalkers: 18 primaries x 14 secondaries (not counting Shield Defense) = 252 before Shield Defense combos to build before power pools

Sentinels: 15 primaries x 14 secondaries = 210 different ways to build before power pools

Masterminds: 7 primaries x 17 secondaries = 119 different ways to build before power pools

 

There is no way to argue that in any respect MMs have the most.

 

Edit again: And here is the best part about your attempt to average sets for ATs. If you actually, say, average armor sets? Well, Tankers and Brutes have 22 armor sets. Scrappers, Sentinels, and Stalkers have 14 armor sets. So the actual average of armor sets, across ATs that actually get them, is 17.2. Not 3. Just for example. (Edit yet again: Whoops, I forgot Shield Defense in those numbers. My mistake. Anyway, the point is made. Your "averages" aren't.)

 

Edited 15 hours ago by Rudra
Edited to add "except we swap what is primary and secondary" twice for clarity.

[Wavicle]

Yea but that’s why I was saying that Way doesn’t make much sense

[MTeague]

3 hours ago, RadiantPhoenix said:

On the other hand, if we divide powersets by the number of ATs that use them, we get a very different picture:

• 15 unique Blaster secondaries
• 13 unique Dominator secondaries
• 7 unique MM minion powersets
• 6 control powersets per AT (12/2)
• 5.5 melee damage powersets per AT (22/4)
• 4.25 support powersets per AT (17/4)
• 3.75 ranged damage powersets per AT (15/4)
• 3 armor powersets per AT (15/5)

See, if each ranged AT could only choose from 3.75 powersets (I'll be generous and round up to 4), that would make sense. 

 

ie, if Blasters had only Fire Blast, Ice Blast, Assault Rifle, and Energy Blast...  and nothing else. 

And if Defenders had only Dark Blast, Radiation Blast, Psychic Blast, and Archery ... and nothing else, 

etc. 

 

Then, only then, would I concede that your comparison is in any way apples-to-apples. Otherwise, sure, you're manipulating numbers like the best of the spin doctors. 

(And for the record, I would not want those restrictions in place)

[TygerDarkstorm]

3 hours ago, MTeague said:

Brutes have 22 primaries.

Scrappers have 21 primaries.

Stalkers have 18 primaries.

Defenders have 17 primaries.

Blasters, Corruptors, and Sentinels, have 15 primaries.

Tankers have 14 primaries.

Controllers and Dominators have 12 primaries. 

 

Masterminds have 7.  

 

Before any other AT gets a new primary, I think Masterminds should either get a new primary, OR, have henchmen reskin options for each primary, OR, have some degree of customization for henchmen, however limited. The devs are of course under no obligation to listen or agree with me, but MM's are definitely in need of some love. 

 

Acknowledgment:  HEATs and VEATs have even fewer primaries, but they were designed from the get-go to have be configurable by 1-2 sets with an extremely large number of power selections. Along with the shapeshifting of HEATs and the Specialization options of VEATs.

 

This!! MM's are still lacking reworks for 2-3 of the primaries, not to mention in dire need of some sort of new primary. I imagine the devs feel it's hard (and I think I heard at least one of the powers devs hates MMs), but man, we're the most sorely in need of a new primary.

 

Regarding the OP: I don't see a place for a flamethrower as a full on powerset. I feel like it's better suited to just offer an alternative animation to fire blast/fire assault where you choose a gun to fire your attacks from.

[RadiantPhoenix]

27 minutes ago, TygerDarkstorm said:

 

Regarding the OP: I don't see a place for a flamethrower as a full on powerset. I feel like it's better suited to just offer an alternative animation to fire blast/fire assault where you choose a gun to fire your attacks from.

The proposal has a clear mechanical identity as a powerset that is primarily DoT (as opposed to "burst DPS with a little DoT on top for spice"), which is not shared with any other DPS powerset, AFAIK.