Archetype Concept: The Paladin (Support / Melee)

[Varkarrus]

Read the google doc version here!

 

Paladins support their team, but are more well-rounded than the vulnerable, low-damage Defenders who hang back on the sidelines. Not just a healer, Paladins can survive the front lines, protect their allies like a tank, and deal enough damage to avoid the need to be bailed out by a scrapper.

 

That said, Paladins are not superior to Defenders in every way. A jack of all trades is a master of none. Their support powers are weaker and have less range than a defender. With no defense powers, their durability comes exclusively from their powerful innate. And their damage is mediocre; not much better than a Tanker.

 

But don’t mark them down based on that! With their versatility, they’re never not welcome in a team!

 

Inherent Power

 

The Paladin’s inherent power is Zeal. Zeal takes the form of a resource bar, similar to Brutes. Zeal is filled as the Paladin takes or deals damage. Unlike Brutes, Zeal significantly augments the Paladin’s defense, and causes significant self healing over time.

 

As a note: the Paladin’s health is on par with a Tanker. Furthermore, they get baseline defense and resist scores that increase with each level. That said, if they max out their Zeal gauge, they’re only slightly more durable than a Scrapper as they lack a defense powerset.

 

Primary Powerset

 

The Paladin’s Primary powerset is Buffs / Debuffs. The difference between this and the Defender’s primary is the range and effectiveness. Paladin’s support abilities have lower scaling, though they can potentially surpass the Defender when Zeal is maxed out. The support powers all have reduced range as well: to protect the front line, you must be at the front line.

 

Secondary Powerset

 

The Paladin’s secondary powerset is Melee Damage. Their damage scaling is slightly better than a Brute, but without the benefits of Fury.

 

Paladins have a signature ability called Valor: this takes the place of abilities like Taunt or Provoke. Valor is an activated ability that taunts enemies in a PBAoE. For each enemy taunted, the Paladin is healed and gains a bonus to Zeal. By running into the fray and popping Valor, you can gain enough Zeal to keep yourself and the rest of the front line alive, but as the Paladin isn’t as durable as many frontliners, it can be a risky maneuver. Know your limits!

 

[Williwaw]

... just a note on your note here...

 

the Paladin’s health, defense, and resist base stats are very high; on par with a Tanker.

 

While Tankers do have high health (nearly 1900 base HP at level 50), they don't have high defense and resist base stats.  Their base resist and defense is 0%, just like every other AT.

 

Tankers have high multipliers on their defense and resist numbers (so they'll get a lot more from a Defense Set power than a Scrapper, Brute, or Stalker would from the same power), but since your AT has no Defense Sets, that multiplier doesn't help.  Zeal would be doing most of the heavy lifting (plus Tough, Weave, and probably armor in the APP/PPPs).

 

(And Defense-granting or Resistance-granting powers from Support sets don't use those "personal" Res/Def multipliers, IIRC, though I may be wrong about that.  I wish City of Data was still up so I could check)

[Varkarrus]

Ah, whoops.

 

I'll fix that to say that they have baseline defense and resist that increases with each level.

[Steampunkette]

Ah, whoops.

 

I'll fix that to say that they have baseline defense and resist that increases with each level.

 

Neither an option nor a good idea.

 

I'm not trying to be insulting when I ask this: Do you understand how Defenses and Resistances work in City of Heroes? Like the ToHit check math, damage scaling by magnitudes, and such?

 

Defense has an absolute value by percentage regardless of level with a scaling increase in value determined by how high your defense is. (+1% defense when you have 0 defense means nearly nothing, +1% defense when you have 44% defense means a -WHOLE LOT-)

 

There's also the issue that no other AT in the game gets anything remotely like what you're suggesting. Tankers, Scrappers, Stalkers, everyone else has to take multiple power slot choices to get even 'decent' levels of survivability, and then has to spend their enhancement slots and inf to get those levels up.

 

You're proposing a class get that for FREE.

 

Massive imbalance off the bat.

[jack_nomind]

There's also the issue that no other AT in the game gets anything remotely like what you're suggesting.

 

For what it's worth, that's not entirely true.  Kheldians get a scaling Resist buff depending on ally comp, and Masterminds also get an innate mitigation power. 

 

I don't think it's very well balanced in this case; having a higher melee damage multiplier than Tanker puts them in Corruptor damage territory, and having Scrapper-level defenses along with a Support set fairly easily positions them as one of the most survivable ATs in the game.  (I don't think these problems are fixable with merely numerical changes, either.  As-proposed, it's just too close to Defender to be anything but a better or worse version of its sibling AT.)  But I don't think that having "some" innate Defense or Resist is inherently unworkable, either.

[Steampunkette]

There's also the issue that no other AT in the game gets anything remotely like what you're suggesting.

 

For what it's worth, that's not entirely true.  Kheldians get a scaling Resist buff depending on ally comp, and Masterminds also get an innate mitigation power. 

 

I don't think it's very well balanced in this case; having a higher melee damage multiplier than Tanker puts them in Corruptor damage territory, and having Scrapper-level defenses along with a Support set fairly easily positions them as one of the most survivable ATs in the game.  (I don't think these problems are fixable with merely numerical changes, either.  As-proposed, it's just too close to Defender to be anything but a better or worse version of its sibling AT.)  But I don't think that having "some" innate Defense or Resist is inherently unworkable, either.

 

Kheldians do get a scaling resistance buff based on team composition. Also damage. And Mez Protection. It's great! But it's also at least SOMEWHAT balanced. By making it based on team composition you add randomness to the levels you get out of it in a way that causes the character to fill missing roles better (DamRes gets high if there's no tank on the team, for example). But it's also straight resistance. So debuffs and stuff still hit rather than getting deflected.

 

But it's not a level-based scaling Defense bonus. Even if it were .5% per level it would be utterly useless until about level 14 when it became marginally okay and become way too strong by the time the character got to level 30. Whether solo or not. Having a 25% defense at 50 plus weave for another 7% and Maneuvers for another 5% gives a great low-investment road to softcapping positionals.

 

Much less a level based scaling Defense -and- Resistance bonus.

 

This AT would be as defended as a tank (With Zeal scaling to increase defenses that are already really high with 0 investment), with 'Surpassing Defender' support abilities at max Zeal, and scrapper level (Read; Really Good) melee damage.

 

It's just way too much.

[jack_nomind]

5 + (X/2)^(1/2)

[Varkarrus]

I know how Defense and Resist work. And yeah, Paladins would be the only archetype to get baseline defense and resist.

 

However: 1) they'd also be the only frontline archetype to lack a defensive powerset. 2) the boost would not be large.

 

As for the Paladin being a "sibling" archetype to the Defender? And how one would likely be stronger / weaker than the other? Yeah, you're right: if you made the strongest possible build on each, one build would likely be more useful than the other.

 

BUT: the idea of a frontline support is one that's lacking in CoH right now (aside from VEATs atm, but those are limited in power option). It's simply about letting people make a wider variety of characters: maybe you want to make a support, but the idea of a frontline support fits your concept better. Something like Kharazim from Heroes of the Storm

[jack_nomind]

BUT: the idea of a frontline support is one that's lacking in CoH right now (aside from VEATs atm, but those are limited in power option). It's simply about letting people make a wider variety of characters: maybe you want to make a support, but the idea of a frontline support fits your concept better. Something like Kharazim from Heroes of the Storm

 

There are a good half-dozen proposals for melee support in this forum already, and nearly all of them bring something else to the table.  In comparison to e.g. The Duo, as one example, this seems like -- ah, sorry, but -- a much less interesting option.  And while there's something to be said for simplicity this:

 

they'd also be the only frontline archetype to lack a defensive powerset.

 

just isn't true in either sense.  First, this AT isn't any more specifically 'front line' than a Dominator; and second, they have a defensive powerset by way of Support.  An FF defender isn't really worse-off, defensively, than an /Ice scrapper.

 

I'm blunt but I mean this with no cruelty: you're solving a problem that doesn't exist in an uninteresting way.  I too want to see a general frontline support AT, but I think there are more inventive ways to go about it.

[Leogunner]

One argument I'd add against an inherent with scaling def/res is one of theme and variability. As is, sets have holes and strengths. These aspects are what make powers interaction as variable as they are. This also refers to what you have protection against and what you don't.

 

The closest example would be a kheld that gets res from its inherent but they also are pretty locked into theme.

[Steampunkette]

I know how Defense and Resist work. And yeah, Paladins would be the only archetype to get baseline defense and resist.

 

However: 1) they'd also be the only frontline archetype to lack a defensive powerset. 2) the boost would not be large.

 

As for the Paladin being a "sibling" archetype to the Defender? And how one would likely be stronger / weaker than the other? Yeah, you're right: if you made the strongest possible build on each, one build would likely be more useful than the other.

 

BUT: the idea of a frontline support is one that's lacking in CoH right now (aside from VEATs atm, but those are limited in power option). It's simply about letting people make a wider variety of characters: maybe you want to make a support, but the idea of a frontline support fits your concept better. Something like Kharazim from Heroes of the Storm

 

VEATs get support AND DEFENSE in their secondary powerset. That's, really, the only way this thing could ever work. A Baseline Scaling defense value that gets improved by increasing levels and is then further improved by a Fury-Based mechanic on top of two separate full powersets is just way too much.

 

Instead, maybe try combining a powerset like Radiation Emission with another powerset like Radiation Defense. The AT gets -some- defenses and -some- support and has to actually pay an opportunity cost for their abilities like all the other Archetypes.

 

 

[Pbuckley818]

I have been ruminating on this a bit sense I saw homecomings Sentinel. My personal take has been that with few exemptions the class would need to have somewhat altered support abilties. One notable exception is Kinetics which is pretty much ready to go, (Their are already Meleefender builds out there using this power) though some alterations could be made to make it work a little better (Increase Density could be made a PBAoE on this archetype so the "Paladin" gets the effect for instance) Believe it or not Storm Summoning could work if you swap all the knockback for knockup/down. Cold Domination might be pretty good as well if one of it's shields was traded in for a personal shield, ect. I can't think of any way to work Empathy that would not utterly gut it's whole gimmick though. Keep in mind that you don't need to nerf the classes support powers too much in exchange for survivability as the class is already taking a hit, they are a melee class I.E. higher risk playstyle, especially for a support class.

Or another path would be to take some of the defensive power sets and trey to tweak them into support power sets, but that might be too much.

I had a Idea for a passive that's a bit different, It was called glory. It was a stacking buff you got every time you landed a melee attack that you lose a stack of every time you use a support power. (It also fades quickly naturally) that increases the potency of your support abilities for every stack you have (Let's say max 5 stacks). Making it where their support abilities are not as strong on base stats alone but go up to near defender level at 5 stacks. (Though glory could also give a minor defensive buff as well)

Ultimately I think we can all agree the class should do about as much damage and support as a corrupter (If not just a bit more to compensate for the more dangerous playstyle) with a smidge more survivability. We don't need it to be a tank Unless of course you just want to make a tank/support that does little to no damage (Almost more like a Controller that plays like a tank) which could be fun, but I doubt that's what most people are looking for. (I mean I'd be in)

One option to make it a bit easier to build is to use the dominator assault powers instead of the scrapper powers, but even I really don't want that.

Also as much as I love Paladins can we call the class something more CoHy like Guardian, Enforcer, Champion, or something along those lines?

Edited July 24, 2019 by Pbuckley818

[Galaxy Brain]

I still think that Tankers could be adjusted to fit this role. They currently have a weird problem where having multiple tankers on a team has supposedly diminished returns compared to multiple melee DPS characters, and in the current meta the melee dps ATs can be built to be about as tough  (especially brutes). 

If Tanks got more "grant cover" style powers in their primaries, they could act as frontline support as they tank. 

[Pbuckley818]

4 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

I still think that Tankers could be adjusted to fit this role. They currently have a weird problem where having multiple tankers on a team has supposedly diminished returns compared to multiple melee DPS characters, and in the current meta the melee dps ATs can be built to be about as tough  (especially brutes). 

If Tanks got more "grant cover" style powers in their primaries, they could act as frontline support as they tank. 

That isn't an entirely bad idea for a more Paladin Esq class. What if they just released a few new power Sets for Tanker designed to grant group support? Empathic Armor Anyone? Maybe boost the Tankers general support stats? Just an idea that could be interesting to see.

[Galaxy Brain]

1 hour ago, Pbuckley818 said:

That isn't an entirely bad idea for a more Paladin Esq class. What if they just released a few new power Sets for Tanker designed to grant group support? Empathic Armor Anyone? Maybe boost the Tankers general support stats? Just an idea that could be interesting to see.

I like that too, where they self buff -> splash effect to allies.

 

However, the core idea is to alter existing tank primaries. For example, RttC or Invincibility could provide a bit of regen or defense to allies too per enemy

[Pbuckley818]

On 7/24/2019 at 9:52 AM, Galaxy Brain said:

I like that too, where they self buff -> splash effect to allies.

 

However, the core idea is to alter existing tank primaries. For example, RttC or Invincibility could provide a bit of regen or defense to allies too per enemy

I mean I wouldn't be too against that... But I feel like that might actually a be a bit harder to implement… What If tankers all just got an innate that grants a small buff to nearby allies based on their chosen armor power?