Koopak

As iv said, a valid argument, just one i disagree with because it hasn't been a problem for me in building a wide variety of builds requiring 2-3 pools that don't give defense. CJ and Hover just aren't big enough for me to feel their loss, infact i think only 2 of my characters even use them while the others are still hitting their build goals. But again, if they made that change, i wouldn't mind much, my main goal was to lend some context of roughly what CT is WORTH because its repeatedly referred to as if it provides nothing, when i just cant disagree with that more.

Not that your point is without merit, but in the vein of my previous post, lets turn some theory into numbers here. Combat Teleport, as it stands at time of writing, has a 0.67 activation time, that means for 2/3 of a second you are unable to do anything else. I shall use my current build's dps rotation to calculate the cost of maintaing a 100% uptime of CT's +10% tohit value at a single stack on this rotation. Baring some oddness this should be proportional to almost all rotations. Disclaimer: These numbers are calculated with the help of Mid's, and are on my build specifically which i consider very weak in the damage department for a katana scrapper, the goal is not the numbers themselves but the relationship between them. Damage values truncated to the second decimal point. My rotation (with activation times): Golden Dragonfly (1.83s) --> Soaring Dragon (1.33s) --> Gambler's Cut (0.67s) --> The Lotus Drops (1.83s) --> Gambler's Cut (0.67s) Total Execution time: 6.33 seconds Total Damage: 1,230.85 DPS: 194.44 Rotation modified for CT spam with 100% uptime on effect: Combat Teleport (0.67) --> Golden Dragonfly (1.83s) --> Soaring Dragon (1.33s) --> Gambler's Cut (0.67s) --> The Lotus Drops (1.83s) Total Execution time: 6.33 seconds Total Damage: 1,100.86 DPS: 173.91 Thus the use of combat teleport at 100% uptime is roughly equivalent to 89.44% of the damage done without it. Roughly a 10% dps drop, give or take. **mathematics ends here, what follows is purely subjective opinion** I am of the opinion that a roughly 10% loss in dps, that only takes effect when i CHOOSE to allow it to, is not a high price to pay for a 10% to hit buff on demand. Using a similar mechanic (though not for to hit) it is possible on a bio armor character to, in a similar fashion, trade resistance, or endurance in favor of damage, and this is seen as a positive. Additionally when discussing a movement power, its worth considering travel time, when an enemy escapes your range or LoS, your dps becomes zero for however long it takes you to react and traverse the necessary distance. With combat teleport, that traversal will essentially never be more than 0.67 seconds. This serves to mitigate some of the damage loss argument, but i know the main part of it is the trade of damage for to hit. Looking at another example, assuming you are taking 2 power slots in leadership to take tactics, a power with less to-hit, but other benefits, you are choosing between maneuvers, assault, and tactics. Most forms of Assault grant 10.5% damage, with support ATs getting stronger versions who also get better versions of tactics so proportionally it stays similar. Viewed in the light of a completed build, one could argue that taking assault instead of tactics, is an option opened up by combat teleport that grants both the desired to-hit bonus, and the ability to forgo that to-hit bonus at any time for a 10% damage output increase. I will also note that while yes Tactic provides confuse a fear resistance, those are the benefits of a power dedicated to improving stats and not providing mobility. Additionally id note Tactics is a T3 pool power REQUIRING one of the previous powers to unlock and should be more valuable than combat teleport. I would hope no one took my previous statements to imply combat teleport was equivalent, because it shouldn't be, only that for one portion of it, it is able to perform the same role. Lastly I would like to address the persistent assessment that CT is unable to push through -accuracy debuffs. I feel this argument only holds water if you believe that melee AT's Build Up is also unable to push through said debuffs. An opinion that I greatly disagree with as I regularly use build up explicitly to get the hits in i need to apply the -def i need to stabilize my hit chance. Build Up provides +20% tohit, Combat Teleport is easily able to double stack, and for a single attack, sometimes two, triple stack for +20% or +30% tohit. Granted your buildup is likely slotted, like mine, with a 6 set of Gaussian's all +5ed granting you 32% +to-hit. However i do not find CT's range, endurance, or recharge to be limiting factors on any set based build, so would argue you can just slap a basic To Hit Buff IO +5ed for a +13.19%, +26.38%, and +39.57% to hit at 1, 2, and 3 stacks respectively, all without wasting a single placeable enhancement slot. I really do feel that people are going purely on a 'gut feeling' that this to-hit is insubstantial while testing on builds that generally either have crap hit chance no matter what, or are perma capped at 95% no matter what. Thus the arguments being posed are limited to arguing that they 'need' the defense, but not the to-hit there for any power that doesn't give defense along with whatever quirks and shifts it does to play style is lesser. Again, if the devs decide, hell with it, lets switch it to defense? I wont lose any sleep over it, but i really do think that the to-hit is more unique and encourages more thoughtful play and build design, where as defense will simply lead to players building with the expectation of 100% uptime and have to train themselves to always be recasting CT rather than using it only when needed. I don't know about you guys? But to hell with that, ill accept not having a defense soft cap long before i train myself to use a movement power every 5 friggen seconds, which mind you, would STILL have the 10% damage loss that was complained about.

I don't disagree with your point, but if you are implying its NOT worth use without the binds, then I definitely do disagree. CT is great even when using it purely with click cast or number key power tray casts.

I was testing Teleport, and Combat Teleport, not Teleport Target, i know TPT has no LoS issues, it wouldnt work right otherwise

I went ahead and tested this for yall. You absolutely do NOT need LOS to teleport using the powexeclocation command. However, if the targeted location ends up being invalid, you will teleport in place. Additionally I had an intermittent issue where if I was to close to a wall, it wouldn't cast at all, regardless of it being Teleport or Combat Teleport. No error dialogue is given, it just acts like the command wasn't used. In practice, its more than enough to jump through walls mid combat with a little practice, but for traveling through buildings id need more testing.

Thank you for answering the real questions 🤣 Ill have to do some testing of some ideas i ahve

While overstated perhaps i agree with this. If you asked the original devs, or the devs from just before shutdown what should be done today? You'd get a different answer than what they would have said when the game was life. and you'd get a different answer from each team with members of the team disagreeding. Even as late as the AMAs the devs expressed differing opinions. So seriously "respect the intent of the original devs" is a crap excuse especially since there are huge differences in philosophy between the live maintenance team and cryptics dev team.

Agreed, as long as the basic mechanics arent messed with, any stat changes are fine by me as long as they dont ever cause the rest of the power's properties to be changed

Its alright, i'll pick it up for the animation at most. I get your attempt to imply that its just bias or whatever but meh? If they got rid of it, entirely, id be mildly annoyed at most.

I maintain that no ammount of 'buffs' to cast speed, recharge time, or destination list makes LRTP stop sucking in the context of a pool power pick

Yeah i keep forgetting MMs are ESPECIALLY hurt but the way Teleport functions. Which is ironic because i mained a MM for a year when CoV first came out that used TP, i know your pain.

I agree thematics work for both to hit and defense, but this is actually my argument for why it should stay to-hit. If you want more defense there are plenty of options, its not unique or interesting, it doesn't encourage a build to adjust around it to incorporate it in an interesting way. Lets say we make it so CT gives defense equivalent to CJ or Hover, you now replace those powers with CT. You haven't changed anything but one power and, arguably, allowed teleporters to not invest in jumping or flight. At best you open up a pool pick. With this to-hit, a player can instead drop tactics or focused accuracy, or possibly adjust enhancements for a lower target accuracy value. This means that you may be opening up an Epic pick, a pool pick, or an entire enhancement plan for every power with accuracy checks. Again I've got no horse in this race, as long as CT functions as is for cast time, cool down, range, so on? I don't mind what if any additional benefits it gives, my arguments are mostly from my enjoyment of making and designing builds and creating interesting power combinations. There are loads of ways to bump your defense, not so many for your to-hit, and sure ill accept one can argue that to-hit is a less valuable stat, but id counter that with the argument that CT is a far more valuable movement option. I don't know that I completely agree. I will say it does feel WORSE to use indoors, but I think that's mostly because the core issue crops up more in that environment. I think the biggest problem is the hover lock, being stuck unable to move. The attacks ending the effect are a good step for combat, but we aren't teleporting into combat much, usually we teleport to a mission door or contact, or some other clickable. This becomes a problem when you land a bit out of range or when it has an interaction time because the end of the hover and landing interrupts those. I cant count how many times iv landed near my target contact, just outside of talk range, and flailed helplessly for a second. It not a serious issue, but it is annoying as hell. One thing that could help a lot, assuming its possible, is doing a scan below the character after they teleport and if they are essentially only a unit or two above an acceptable piece of ground, nix the hover. However I don't know how practical that is to do from a dev perspective. Another option would be to make the hover mechanic dismissable and allow us to bind that dismissal to a key or macro or such, bit slap dash but it would work. I'm not sure what else would work. As for myself I want to see some movement on Teleport Team and Fold Space/Teleport Target magnitudes, but I don't think there much left to say on either, just hoping they have been noted and marked in a design doc somewhere. (edit:) At this rate I'm going to get a rep for being a wind bag

I just realized i could have made your life much much easier.... In the combat stats under basic, there is a "last hit chance" stat, track that, it updates with every attack and tells you what your chance to hit the target was. That will give you a better view under the hood. So sorry I didn't think to point that out sooner. Thats fair, and while my Triform shade isnt enhanced to even 50 yet, ill admit im much happier to risk the knifes edge on him than some people might be. But I know once hes setup as long as i get 3-4 enemies in my eclipse ill be fine and always have fall backs, just have to very very present, cant relax on my WS like I can on other ATs but for that trade off hes a little demi god when it goes right and i love it.

Agreed, while id prefer both, or the enhancement solution, but in terms of priorities? The poor Grav users absolutely should have this.

Generally I agree with you, but as long as the devs feel its necessary to keep the Pool sets down to their current size, which i agree with because if they bumped it up it would establish a precedent, then Its certainly the ideal one to do this with.

I appreciate you grabbing that for me. Seems i mis remembered some of them. However the total estimate i gave were using a worst case scenario. I did this on purpose to give a benefit of a doubt to the issue. And again, I can agree that perhaps the requirements should be lightened, i do not agree however, that LRTP should remain as it is currently.

Someone in the thread for the accolade already did the math, a near worst case scenario is 5 mins per zone unlock, with most being 2 mins or less. There are 27 possible locations if you are a rogue or vigilante, that means a worst case is 2.25 hours of work. For a hero only which is the majority of characters its only 1 hour 10 mins for the worst case. Cut those in half for something more like a realistic estimate. You spend more time doing a single TF of which you need half a dozen for other Accolades. Up to you how you value +5% max hp vs Teleport anywhere. And none of that considers the fact that you likely wont use every single location and thus dont need the,

I'm a fan of both of these solutions. While id still have to sacrifice a power pick in the first one, the utility of having Recall Team, alone would make it worth the price of admission, and the two pet focused portals could make MM's lives much easier. There are alot of ways it could be implemented as well to address any balance concerns. The second option rewards investment in the TP pool as well without necessarily forcing you to pick powers with no combat value. My only concern is the fact that it would break parity with other travel powers by giving you that little extra. I don't think it bad, but I can see it being received poorly.

I believe the devs quite clearly are asking for our feedback on just that decision, which hardly makes it set in stone. And I, and apparently at least some others, disagree that it wasn't really a problem. Its vexed me for as long as I have had my main character. If we are here to give feedback, I'd like our feedback to be clear enough to make a decision on. For you, LRTP's current implementation isn't an issue, for me it is, your primary issue with how its being resolved has to do with the time sink of badge hunting. So again, my point is, why don't we discuss alternative ways the accolade could be set up? If we find a solution that you and others who share your opinion are happy with, then we have a solution that allows those of us who do think LRTP is a problem to have the problem fixed, and those who hold with you, have things similar enough to how they were to not be disturbed by it. I was under the impression that just such a conversation is basically the point of these threads, so we can help the devs with feedback and suggestions that make the game better for all of us.

Farmers are going to use any and every tool they can, i don't see that as a reason to not give the rest of the player base said tool. Exp, recipes, and damn near every form of progression can be obtained by a solid farmer brute build faster than anything else, and that's not likely to change any time soon, certainly not without a patch far more broad than this one. Just because Fold Space will reduce farm times by maybe 10-20% doesn't in anyway invalidate its value in normal play. I would also argue that despite the game being in one of the best states it has ever been in for "ey let me go spam one mission and get everything i want" there is PLENTY of groups doing normal content in a normal fashion. Maybe that's just because Everlasting is the odd one out, but that's been my experience. As for LRTP, i get if that was your experience, but with the buffs to base tp and other travel prestige, I cant help but feel any hatred for the change is mostly limited to "i dont want to click more than twice" and "i don't want to badge hunt". We solve that last one, is not your issue resolved? If we make it appropriately easy/hard to get the accolade and its destinations, would that not resolve your core issue with LRTP being moved to an accolade?

Umm yes I'm aware of that.... I apologies if I was unclear. What I am saying is that while its only 1 pick for someone who wants to use those travel powers, its 3 and a pool for anyone who doesn't. Which means they have to choose between a power that is being argued to be so valuable as to be worth a power pick, let alone 3. An opinion I disagree with. However if you believe its really that good, then I have to ask why the hell you'd be upset by it being made freely available. Your arguments should, in theory, be limited to "make it easier to unlock destinations" not "don't take it out of the pool set" My point here is that there seems to be a bit of tribalism forming up around "keep LRTP because its good and i don't want to badge hunt for it" and "get rid of LRTP because its bad and handicaps build options in builds that take it" where there shouldn't be. The way I see it most of the argument for keeping LRTP in the TP pool is centered around the badge requirements for the new accolade, so why not focus on the unlock requirements? Because I'm 100% behind you, those unlock requirements are kinda steep. And again please this "Just because you" emphasis is unnecessary. Speaking for myself, my main since 2010 in live with some 80% of my hours on has Teleport Friend, Teleport, and LRTP. I am all to happy to see LRTP go as i barely find reason to use it other than, as I said, for a spiffy animation when using other options.

I get what you yer saying here but i think you over emphasis the inconveniences here, and are of course omitting starting location, if yer already at a zone with a Tram or TUNNEL that plays into this. I think the base portal is ultimately the one that does the lions share here. Firstly you mis quote, these changes to LRTP are not happening in a vacuum. Each of the teleports you mentioned is being reduced to a 10 min cooldown, only double what base LRTP is. Now if you cycle Base Teleporter, and SuperGroup Portal summon, you have a 5 min cycle, same as LRTP. These changes are also not made because of LRTP, but instead because of the removal of the macro, which if your argument stems from how things are now prior to this patch, is an even bigger reason for why LRTP is worthless. You imply that having a base is somehow hard, or particularly inconvenient. Ignoring the fact that most active SGs have such a base, and that id say the majority of people play in such SGs (i have no data so this is a guess but seems a good one) Setting up your own base is as simple as going to City Hall, making a dummy SG, loading in, throwing in a room, a few portals, and a bunch of beacons, and yer good to go. You don't need the SG badges anymore. Now lets say you don't want to do that, well there are a wide number of bases on several servers, Everlasting in particular, that are open to the public, have all the portals at the entrance, and have their base code freely available. Solve this 'problem' with any of the above solutions and yer back to LRTP levels of free movement. I also think you over emphasis the location list. Realistically, how often do you need to go to a place not on that or the SG base list? I think when crossing between Blue, Red, and Gold sides are the only times it has mattered for me personally, and that's while actively attempting to experience every piece of content i haven't done in awhile or missed during live. Add in all the other options, and you have LOTS of mobility, such that LRTP isn't really giving anything. Id go so far as to argue that the cooldown really doesn't matter either. I rarely need to transition zones more than once in say 15 mins, most of the time I'm in a zone for more than 30 mins. Maybe I'm the odd man out here, but I feel like we have so many mobility options that the only 'correct' solutions, are either axing LRTP from your power pick list and making it available for those who want it like this accolade. Or nerfing every other transport method to prop LRTP up. I'll tell ya right now that last one would cause riots in the streets. As for the badge concern, again, I'm a little bit with you, maybe keep LRTP but still do all the changes here, so those who really want it can take it instead of getting the accolade. Or maybe make it only need you to get one badge, or visit the zone. I'm open to other ideas, but it absolutely should not be left as is, and Fold Space and Combat Teleport absolutely deserve a place in this pool more than it does. (edit:) This as well, keep in mind that unless teleport just happens to be part of your character theme, this is a pool pick and 3 powers just to get, where as the new option is available for all. You have to invest in TP pretty hard for LRTP as is, and frankly, none of the powers prior to this rework aside from Teleport are worth much either. This change will fix that, but if you dont like any of the other TP powers, yer still stuck taking alot of chaff just to get your LRTP which you keep arguing is so good that it makes the other travel options seem so terrible you argue vehemently against being forced to use them.

Just realizing I never saw this reply and Its got me scratching my head. No offense but why would missing Eclipse on one of the enemies matter? Ignoring for a moment that you shouldn't have much trouble getting it to a 95% hit chance most of the time, if you've slotted it for even basic resistance you should be hitting your resist caps at somewhere between 4 and 5 targets. I realize there are a ton of ways to play WS but I was making my comment under the assumption that the reason you'd want to guarantee the mobs are within your Eclipse range is because it lets you leap up to your resist caps in all forms. So if you yank in say 6-8 mobs, you'd need to miss more then 1/2 of them for it to be a serious issue, assuming you can get the eclipse off before the alpha strike, which admittedly i haven't tested but given the slow reactions mobs often have i didn't think it a likely issue.

Certainly, and I'm sorry if I came off more combative than I intended. I will say that the times where this mobility matter most are generally not while soloing, and generally seem to be melee specific. Melee characters are more dependent on positioning then ranged ones to get good cone and AOE hits, namely due to short ranges. The other place this helps a lot in are patches, namely blizzards or caltrops, anything with serious negative effects. CT makes it much easier to escape them, and while it does require mobs to bunch back up, one could make the argument that Fold Space is the remedy to that as a melee character, and as a ranged character, well most of the times Mobs seem happy enough to conga line to their death. However I feel group play is actually the biggest value. While I haven't had a lot of opportunities to test with groups on the test server, I have used Jaunt on the main servers as an effective method to rapidly move to assist teammates, something that can become extremely difficult under previously mentioned path effects. Its to the point that I wanna try and setup a series of binds to jump to each of my teammates. As most of the ATs best suited to pulling a teammate out of the fire are melee, being able to rapidly jump next to my blaster teammate (who is certainly no blapper and tends to get squished kinda bad if she gets agro) throw out a taunt, or a knock back or some other CC, then return to the main fight, presumably dragging the offending mob along, is very handy. I recognize the situation I just described can be seen as 'niche' because people tend to think in end game terms, chain running iTFs with a group all loaded out with T3+ incarnates and probably atleast a basic set IO build. However as someone who regularly plays with friends from level 10 on up to 50 incarnate gods, and 'whats an enhancement?' to 'Hey check my new 1.5 bil fit' I find it happens more than enough to validate CT on that use alone. For characters like Dominators that tend to have a mix of ranged and melee powers, it can be very useful to leap to a target, smackem with your big melee hit, then blink back and refresh a CC or slap out a snipe. A stalker I have actually uses the force of will powers, and I'm sorely tempted to give her CT when its out for this very reason. (granted i build a crowd control stalker, so shes hella off meta weird). This is also part of why id love to see the WS equivalent work for there shape shifted forms, as it would allow them to triform more effectively. Think stealth CT into a pack, used fold space to tighten them up for eclipse, mire, dwarf form, dwarf mire, blink back, use the cone stun/knockback, blink back a tiny bit more, go nova and proceed to wreck shop. That can all be done without being able to blink in that dwarf form but not as easily. Id argue let WS use their version in any form, then let PBs use CT only in human form like normal. This keeps the WS version unique, but allows PBs to have some fun with the options too. For me I feel like the utility CT brings to the table is so great that, while not every AT, power set, and player is doing to want it, or even benefit from it. It will be so valuable to so many playstyles that any stats just are icing on the cake. So I feel like this may just be a case of CT isn't for you personally, which is totally fine.

I don't wanna be 'that guy' but I'm really gonna stick to my guns on the claim that, because you are playing with a track pad and there for point click precision is kinda out the window for you in an active fight? Then yeah, it just isn't going to work for you, and I don't think that's something to be taken as to big a criticism. For whatever reasons you have for using the track pad (no mouse room or mobility whatever) it is ultimately a person issue in my opinion? Like if we can make it work better in your situation, awesome, but i don't think the track pad is the input the devs should be focusing their game design around. All of your positioning issues seem more related to that than anything else, because of course, without mouse precision you cant teleport as precisely as you can run with the WASD keys, which by the way i find VERY inaccurate at anything above baseline sprint speeds due to the odd input lag / physics / acceleration and deceleration. As for the tracking issue you mentioned, that's just a limit of the way the status monitor works, it pings your character's stats about once every few seconds or so? With seemingly some variance, its not real time. As such the buffs can come and go without showing up properly, stacking, and so on. I've had the issue with any effect shorter than 20 seconds, including force feedback procs and gaussian procs. From my anecdotal experience, it does its job just fine, and i can stacking it almost like build up, which often is enough for me to punch through several layers of -to-hit in order to get a hit or two in. For alto of ATs that will be a 'nice to have' but not being enough to change how often they feel they hit. But for someone using a set with a lot of -def built in, it can be a life saver. The character iv been working with is a Katana using Scrapper, and the +to-hit often lets me get one or two -def debuffs onto the target, letting me get my hit rate back into a viable spot. This lines up since I was already able to do that with Build-Up just not as often, and 2 stacks of CT is the same +to-hit. If yer not using a set with -def built into it I can totally see why you wouldn't necessarily notice the benefit, especially if yer running a built that comfortable hits 95% hit rate on 50+4 mobs passively already since yer likely over capped, this is something you have to account for in your build, basically with the goal of having JUST enough accuracy to always be in that 95% hit range on most fights while squeezing in as much durability and damage as possible. I don't see CT as a game changer, just as i don't see CJ or Hover as a game changer when it comes to builds, both of those powers much lauded defense is often only necessary on specific builds, and i often don't feel the need for them, again my main scrapper solos +4x8 content without either and i don't think everyone should have that as a goal. I know ill probably be branded a heretic for that last paragraph but its how I feel lol. I think this 10% to-hit buff lines up, mechanically, with the value provided by CJ and Hover, as a combat mobility power in both raw value and goal. If it 'feels' useless, just keep in mind that we as humans are terrrrible at detecting even significant shifts in probability. That said how something feels is a big part of game design, so, there's a debate to be had there. Now at risk of writing to much.... Answering for myself as a fan of Teleport as my main travel power since the old old olden days. Even if they did that, even if it had zero cast time, and functionally no cooldown? It'd still be pretty shit mate. The problem isn't ease of use, or even how fast I can use it to travel, those all go out the window when i can shift to any zone i want in under minute though a dozen other methods. What is an issue is, that because of the aforementioned options existing, and most of them existing well before LRTP was added, even if they were payed for, is that there is no VALUE. There is nothing LRTP allows you to do that cant be done by someone that doesn't have it, at best, you can do it SLIGHTLY faster, maybe 30 seconds to a minute faster depending on loading times. Even after yeeting yourself into the zone, you are still dependent on where that location spits you out at, and now have to travel to your final destination still, just like everyone else. As such the only reason i take LRTP is I like to use it, then click my base macro when the animation ends so it 'looks' like I'm teleporting. To me? Its main value is as a /emote. Every other power in the game has more intrinsic value than LRTP, I'm not saying that without some thought, I'm actively struggling to find anything id even remotely consider as bad or worse, since even other 'bad' powers have niche uses that cannot be accomplished with any other power, or at least without a specific power set mixed together, thus taking up more space. Even Team Teleport, which I firmly think needs to be thrown in the wood chipper and reworked from the ground up, has niche uses where only assemble the team could maybe be used to fill in, and even then there are things it cant do. Meanwhile the functionality of LRTP is emulated by about a dozen things that every character almost always has access to. LRTP is dead weight in any build that takes it, it provide no combat value, no utility, and only the most tiny quality of life boost that simply doesn't matter and wouldn't with all the cooldown and cast speed, and destinations in the world. Unless you can add "my ideal life" to the teleport list, or at least "the bar" and "home" then I couldn't be happier to see it be gone. The fact that I can get it back as an accolade, customize the visuals, and keep my snazy animation is just icing on the cake that is this rework. (edit:) If you're issue is with the time commitment to get the accolade? That is a fair argument, and one I'm happy to engage in. But to me that's a matter of "how should the accolade work" not "should it be removed from the Teleport pool and replaced by something more valuable". Because I totally see how people feel that the requirements are a bit much for a character. Its one thing to need all those badges for SG portals, that benefits a group, but individual its a bit steep. Perhaps one badge per zone? Something like that might be more palatable. Maybe add the ability to purchase locations from the P2W vendor to reduced your badge gathering.