Koopak

First. I got that and I didnt hate it on its face, I peraonally think the IO is fine as is. In theory we are on the same side I just cant stand your "way of arguing" its rude, dismissive, and completely unhelpful to the conversation. Second. If you followed Sunsette and Super Atom's conversation to this point youd see their issues are predominantly with Energy Blast and those issues are justified, and while your suggestion MIGHT help, it wont make a real difference, so their disagreement is reasonable. Lastly. You KEEP making false equialance arguments that wanting a better solution so an entire powerset is not forced to choose between optimal slottingin its ST attacks or not shoving an enemy out of range with any and all possible attack chains is the same as power creep demands for more damage. Wanting your powerset to keep pace with the others is not unreasonable, seriously. And youve been in the threads on Regen with me, you have seen me argue vehemently that the widely considered underpowered armor is not and doesnt need huge raw buffs even though mained the set since day one of this game. So I hope that lends some credence to my argument that wanting EB to suck a little less is a reasonable desire.

Your assertion that damage procs are to small to matter is provably false. Procs often offer significant damage improvement else you wouldnt see hasten global recharge proc monster meta. As for your p2w suggestion, see ALL my critique of OPs idea.

Naraka who are you even talking to anymore? I feel like you are projecting ALOT of pent up frustration with the 'meta people' onto something just... Not even related. The fact is energy blast is uniquely overloaded with KB and that KB as a mechanic is inconsistent due to how the games animations work. The set does not have any other benefits and Sunsette and Super Atom are highlighting that compared to other sets this is a performance issue, one made even worse by the negative side of KB being only mitigatable by an IO that deprives them of optimal slotting further pushing the set behind. None of this thread is even related to low level content as IOs are not commonly slotted in low level characters. Even if they were I dont think its mad for people who love a set that underperforms to want to see improvement. I outright oppose the OPs proposition, but thats because EBs issue SHOULD be resolved by a balance pass, not an enhancement change, and I believe @Sunsette and @Super Atom agree but really just want an improvement, any improvement, to their issue wbich is REASONABLE

Knews flash, being pedantic and dismissive os considered rude in polite society. You also regularly ignore or dimiss arguments without a counter arguement which is neither constructive nor polite.

I dont personally think the fact one, very old, powerset being poorly designed is much of a reason for the proppsed changes though. Energy Blast needs a balancing pass, not a new kb toggle io. Also this is not equivalent to not sending food to starving people because you cant feed them all and that insinuation is just dumb. We HAVE a working solution, and I dont think anyone is opposing this change because it isnt perfect. Im opposing it because I believe it is actively harmful. To use that obsurd analogy, id say this proposal is like replacing said food with week old mcdonalds. Thats not an improvement and is likely worse than continuing to do what we already are.

This poll has issues, in particular the option: "Players should be able to toggle it as wanted/needed." is extremely vague and could be read as exactly how things are now, which may or may not be your intent but given your expressed opinions elsewhere i assume its not. As SwitchFade mentioned, this questionnaire needs more refinement to be useful and in the end you will only get the small subset of people who read the forums and specifically the suggestions sub forum so that needs to be considered.

I believe you may have misunderstood on a "magic fix" as you are reiterating my intended point. There is no magic fix, and even in a new game it would still be an issue unless the rest of the game changed around it, but thats neither here nor there. My core thesis is the existing solution as is, is the closest we will get as it empowers the player, but provides a cost for removing the need to think about positioning or the risk of breaking up AoEs. That the issue of harassment and outcasting is something that cannot be solved by anything less than changes we all agree would be unacceptable. And lastly that any changes that make the first part easier and less costly will not only have sweeping balance effects but also make the harassment and outcasting issue exponentially worse. Maybe I am also misunderstanding you as well, but i don't think we disagree on the problem, we disagree on the solution, because I believe that the existing KB->KD IO is well worth its cost in most powers where it is a significant issue baring unique exceptions, and because I am very certain that a single global IO, or toggle will result in more harassment, not less. That is not to say that there are not powers, like Nova, that should get a look.

If you want to 100% put a stop to people being assholes about other people using knockback, then the only solution is to not allow people to play with knockback. You cant make people be nicer, only make it harder for them to justify to themselves being mean. Personally? I prefer the IO solution as is, it allows granular, per power choice on where to convert KB to KD, its an excellent tool and allows you to remove components you don't like. I assume you and most others here realize that there will always be 'that guy' in varying amounts unless you physically remove the ability for 'that guy' to complain. So my point here is: I believe any change that makes it easier to convert KB to KD will only make 'that guy' worse and more common until we outright forcibly convert all KB to KD. I hope that is clear, and I hope everyone here can agree that removing KB entirely from the game is just not an acceptable answer. Thus, i propose that the current system is the best we can reasonably ask for at this time baring one of the devs drinking their body weight in coffee and licking timespace until the code produces a superior form of KB that magically always goes in just the right direction and just the right distance.

They are, but there only two ways to stop that and they both blow. Remove the IO, or remove all KB in the game. The first one STILL leaves room because of "i don't team with EB blasters because of KB". The current solution allows people to resolve the issue, only on powers where its an issue for them specifically, grants significant build decisions, AND keeps the 'barrier' to 'fixing' the KB 'issue' those sets have vague and significant enough to quiet some people down. I feel that the amount of harassment on this topic is largely overblown, but maybe that's just Everlasting being more chill. As Player-1 said though KB can be just as much a boon as a curse, its a tool, and seeing excellent use of it is one of the things that made me dive into a huge Warshade build that i am so happy to have and play now.

At risk of repeating myself, i very much don't feel regen suffers in raw performance when discussing incoming damage survived assuming you use your active powers well. I believe its the vulnerability to debuffs and lack of compensation for time spent using actives that holds the set back. Other sets getting 2/3s of the passive regen of Regen isn't that big a deal because the resulting hp/s is much higher on Regen when you finish factoring everything. Conceptually i get your opinion about wanting a more passive set, but no, god no, please no, not now, not ever. Regen is unique in how active it is, Bio is the only thing even close, and while sure Wolvy isn't exactly focusing to regenerate, he is pushing through pain and such and clicking powers just in time to survive feels much more like a visceral "fuck you" to the mobs. You are actively pushing through and putting effort into your survival in a way other sets physically cant, and that feels GREAT Absorb is constantly suggested and i still hate it, dont get me wrong it does help with the alpha issue, but resistance would do that too and as it is Regen's resistances are VERY low, so buffing them isnt going to step on any resist sets toes.

That is an equally if not MORE loaded poll. PF's asks if people fell it needs to be changed or removed and their general opinion on it as a mechanic. Yourse proposes which mechanic they "prefer" you can EASILY prefer Knockdown while enjoying Knockback and wanting it kept in the game. In fact one could argue thats EXACTLY the opinion held by everyone in this thread who says the current IO solution is fine and uses them. I think arguing over poll data is a huge mistake in this discussion anyways, how people feel about the mechanic is only one component of the argument, and an extremely difficult to quantify one at that. Let alone with polls that don't even represent a significant portion of the actual active, player base.

I disagree a little, going through blasters. Archery: Explosive Arrow pushes mobs out of Rain of Arrows (and oil burn patch if yer pairing with TA but i wont get into secondaries further) Assault Rifle: M30 Gernade pushes mobs out of Ignite Energy Blast: yes? And this is only talking about non cones. Now I think the examples above are almost disingenuous because in my experience they don't knock that far. So if their 3ish mag KB is fine, then only Nova needs the IO, so how does Nova stack up? Well, poorly, and thats because it has the same or worse Damage, DPA, and DPS to almost all equivelents either as T9s or just as AoEs. Only Rad and Dark are basically one for one on these metrics, but Nova has about 5 times the knockback, in fact thats meant to be its THING just as the others have their own secondary effects. Now i see the use of Nova's knockback as a survival tool, especially since it was originally designed to leave you vulnerable after, but yeah i think its clear Nova is lagging and its because of this. So I can see why that power specifically becomes a "I need this to make it worth using" but thats a power balance issue, not a KB issue. And again, unless you are purely soloing, in which case regrouping between cooldowns isn't THAT hard, then a HUGE amount of the power of the KB->KD IO that makes it worth the slot, is the damage you get out of it as a team because you were able to use Nova and not push all the mobs out of the radius of everyone else's AoEs Not to rag on you Super Atom, this next bit is a general observation/complaint/old man yelling at cloud, regarding the community as a whole. Way to often things are over simplified down to solo, single mob, or even single enemy situations when many powers and enhancements do not make any kind of sense in that limited scenario and are instead designed for the game as it is. This IO's biggest value is in a team, not solo, your Nova -> Explosive Blast issue can partly be mitigated by inverting it to Explosive Blast -> Nova. Key word 'partly', obviously if 3.32kb is pushing people the 10+ units needed to exit Nova's Radius that might not be perfect. The real issue is your Nova yeeting mobs with its 16.62kb out of the 15-25 radius of everyone eleses AoE, and even then that usually more an efficiency issue than a danger to the team. probably repeated myself to much but i have a migrain atm so bite me 😜

This is what I was getting at earlier. You didn't sacrifice 2 slots, you spent 2 slots to greatly increase your AoE. I'd argue far more than any damage or proc could do.

Honestly while energy gets the short end of the stick if you just hate KB for some reason and cant stand its existence, if you are just looking to control your AoE, you only need 2 or 3 depending on if you count Energy Torrent. I get that slowly pushing an enemy out of the pack and into another can be an issue but its not that common a problem and easily mitigated. If someone argued Energy Blast should have a knockback toggle id go "the fuck?" followed by "okay yeah i can see that" not a 100% support, but yeah as a uniquely effected powerset i can see it.

This is the number one problem i have with all of this. This entire conversation presupposes a false assumption. Perhaps some people have it in mind but comments like this, that KB -> KD should be 100% free hint at many people not. That false assumption is that an enhancement that does ONLY KB->KD (as it is now) is a performance loss. I take huge issue with this assumption because many of the arguments for why KB->KD is needed hinge on how KB pushes enemies out of AoEs. It should stand to reason, and is clearly demonstrable, that KB->KD is there for a highly valuable enhancement that greatly increases overall damage output of not only the user but the team as a whole. I personally feel an enhancement that allows a power that normally scatters enemies, making follow up AoE hard, to instead keep them close to be worth far more in terms of damage increase than any other enhancement could do in that slot. Which is also why I appose adding any other stat to the enhancement, it is already one of the most powerful in the game id argue. And none of this is talking about the very real, if difficult to quantify, value of KB as a survival tool which others have pointed out. Setting aside toxic community behavior a moment, these powers were created with knock back intentionally, both as upsides and downsides I suspect, as well as for the sheer enjoyment of flinging people across a room. I do not think being able to turn this feature effectively off is a "dead slot" or whatever. I disagree with a global setting because then many AoEs would need to have their damage adjusted to reflect this change. I disagree with a global IO because of the same issues plus the awkwardness of that one IO on builds. In fact I feel the current solution is honestly the best that's possible short of major back end changes to the game. Picking back up the toxic behavior issues? Shit id almost advocate for the removal of KB->KD entirely. Now I'm going to be a bit hyperbolic here so bare with me. The IO is seen as a "cure" for poor play, and the fact it exist takes people from a mindset of "ugh i hate knockback in this game" to "I hate this idiot on my team right now" as the default. What I mean is, if we roll back to prior to this IO's existence, back KB usage would get complained about, but most of the time, people who weren't total assholes would assume a level of inexperience or just plain old mistakes. "Positioning is hard yo." Now however the default is to assume that anyone who isn't using KB->KD is doing so intentionally and without regard for their team, or even actively trolling. Again, hyperbolic, but I'm sure many of us have met 'that guy', and my main point in this part is that easy options to turn KB off, cause significantly more problems in the community than the existence of KB itself. Those who are overly sensitive about KB for whatever reason, likely bad past experiences, now have a 'reason' to point to for why its okay in their mind to mistreat others, because the solution is just "so simple". Put simply, giving people the power to turn of KB->KD, ESPECIALLY for free or cheaper, encourages people to hate the player, not the game, and that is profoundly unhealthy for the community. Before anyone suggests it by the way, no the moderation team cannot solve that through rulings, penalties, and bans, you can't moderate that kinda behavior, just crack the whip incessantly to not avail and at best drive players away. You can see this in some of the more toxic online communities out there where the game actively encourages a behavior by its design, and the moderators of that community try their damnedest to enforce even, fair, positive treatment, and it just makes it worse in the end through no fault of that mod team. (TL;DR: If you've seen me you know I rant. Leave KB->KD as it is, its NOT a dead enhancement slot, KB->KD = more damage, no need for extra stats on the enhancement, any easier solution would only exaggerate the currently relatively minor toxicity surround it)

Rescue the Mystic from the Circle of Thorns which gives the Spelunker badge is a decent one if i recall if yer just looking for a "tell me what to do" answer.

You need Mid's Reborn properly installed so that its able to be called by the data link. Keep in mind you are necroing a pretty old thread as well, these builds are all build with outdated Mids which shouldn't be a problem but should keep it in mind.

Oh most certainly. If i had to pick changes now it would be Slap a smallish recharge bonus on Quick Recovery to help improve its value (its very skippable with a good build currently). 20% should be good but could be less, could be more, just enough to compensate having to use click powers. Said powers can have their recharges adjusted to make it so this doesn't effectively influence them if needed. Slap some debuff resistances into one or more powers, big one would be resistance to -recharge, again could go in Quick Recovery Make Revive usable while alive to instantly recharge Regen powers, adjust recharge as needed. Maybe consider moving the activation times on powers to be more immediate. Dying from a random hit before Reconstruction or Moment of Glory can activate blows. That should solve 90% of the problems with the set without changing its identity or significantly messing with its raw durability. If the set is still under performing after that id look into improving resistance. Right now Defense is to core to the sets durability due to how easy it is to obtain from sets and outside powers, which makes -def problematic. Enough resistance could solve this, and people seem to forget that resistance is equivalent to higher max hp or absorb ultimately, they are just different ways of accomplishing the same thing.

I actually like the idea of Revive working like a burnout for regen abilities. People DO undervalue Revive, hell I sometimes just think of it as a 15 second immunity power due to the untouchable after rezing, but so long as there are badges tied to not dieing it'll be a hard sale.

When the X-men were created and the concept of marvel's mutants, the purpose was specifically to avoid needing to create and explain backstories and power origins for every character.

Doesn't solve the core problem with most self rezes, but does bring it somewhat in line with damaging rezes. That being that they are only useful after a "loss condition" which while i generally hold that "death is not a loss condition if you get right back up" there are game mechanics that aggressively disagree with that, uncommon as they are, so players are justified in holding that view. I really consider Second Wind pretty crap, its only value is derived from the fact that Dismiss Pain is a poor replacement for Dull Pain. If applied to Scrapper, Brute, Stalker the existing Second Wind mechanics would be useless as all of those can perma Dull Pain with minimal slot investment while getting it strong enough to hit HP caps. It would need to be converted into Absorb or some other shenanigans which isn't my first pick. (Edit: I recognize second win is a decent heal but having another click heal isn't a significant thing to me, let alone one with a base recharge of 250) I think @aetherealis at least on the right track, in that if we make Revive have a damage or +damage component you can use while alive then we solve two problems with one change. Namely you make Revive a valuable power pick even if you never die, and you give Regen something to compensate for dps loss from click powers. Additionally if done right it gives a nice risk/reward pairing where you have to risk not having your revive to get the damage bonus, and I'm ALWAYS a fan of risk/reward systems.

This has some merit as it does synergize with opportunity's single target focus to some degree, though i feel it might add to much gameplay complexity to an already obtuse AT without giving enough benefit.

I always want more pwoersets and boy do MMs need more, their options are limited given how long it takes to make one. However I will note that if given the choice id probably pick any other MM pet set idea just because i don't wanna detract from the EATs unique elements. Given how often they are used to make non Arachnos and non Kheldian characters though, its hardly a big deal.

This doesn't feel like something that should need a "good argument" to enable for OP. That's the fundamental disconnect between you two. You see a possible issue without advantage, and they see and opportunity without drawback. The core of any debate here begins and ends with "In live SOME supergroups ran by SOME people used prestige as an excuse to engage in toxic social pressure." and whether or not that would be true again in the modern era of the game with prestige having no tangible impact. I feel that it really wouldn't as without the value inherit in being able to spend that prestige (even if you already bought everything you want) it loses a lot of its meaning and the SGs that exhibit the behavior you fear will be few and far between. I'd suggest Vet levels as an example, iv yet to see anyone use their vet level as an excuse to be disrespectful or dismissive of anyone else. However, I will add that if this is going to cause this aggressive a knee jerk reaction, then the fact that it provides minimal to no benefit to the community means its not worth getting people fired up over. Your view wins by the default of existing, even if it might be unfounded. The fact that you and others are so concerned with this possibility as to provide multiple multi paragraph posts in opposition suggests that its simply not worth the headache. I for one wont care much either way, be fun to have another number to push up, but not enough to give a shit about it.

IF I was gonna do this id want to to involve some kinda SG badge equivalent to vet levels. The prestige doesn't help anything, doesn't unlock anything, just makes a public number go burr.