Warlawk

Quality discourse. You've represented the pvp community pretty much exactly as most would expect. Bravo sir.

An increase of personal power for your character. This is the goal of most activities within MMO styled games. If you would like to increase the power of your character, you invest the time. If you want to change that fundamental paradigm of the entire genre of game, presenting a stronger argument than "I don't want to invest the time to earn the reward" would make a lot of sense. There has been no presentation of what advantage this would bring to the community, what it would do to improve player engagement, what benefit it would offer to the game environment. The sole argument in support of making the change is "I don't want to invest the time to play my character through content to earn a reward that increases my personal power." In a genre of games where that is the fundamental principle of advancing your character, do you find that a compelling argument? Please evaluate based on the premise, facts and merit of the suggestion and reasoning, not the bleeding hearts of the poor persecuted PvP players.

'Burden of proof' that a change is needed would fall to those proposing the change. Thus far the reason given for this change is "I don't want to invest the time to earn the reward". In breaking down what the barriers are we established that the investment required to create a complete finished end game pvp character can be measured in hours and is lower than that required for an end game pve character. Stating that the already smaller investment is too arduous would require an argument stronger than "I don't want to invest the time to earn the reward". This is at its core an MMO, if you think investing a matter of hours to have a completed endgame character is excessive, then maybe you should look somewhere other than an MMO rather than asking said MMO be reprogrammed to accommodate you. Burden of proof means the people requesting the change need to show why their time is more important than the rest of the players. The existing system works fine, if a change is needed it should have a stronger argument than "I don't want to invest time in my character for an MMO" Once again, coming to a PvE focused game and requesting the game be reprogrammed so that you don't have to invest a matter of hours in completing an endgame character for your chosen optional content enjoyed by a tiny minority of the game is textbook entitled behavior. Why is your time more important than that of the vast majority of the playerbase who has to earn those rewards? Make your case. Post to be addressed You've created a straw man argument and slung personal attacks rather than providing supporting evidence for your own position because said position is indefensible. You instead threw insults and misdirection with a weak attempt at wit to distract people from the fact that you have no argument or supporting information aside from "I don't want to earn my rewards, give them to me." And I did address the four barriers you presented in a different post, perhaps if you read the thread you would see that, or perhaps you did and this is just yet another straw man/misdirection attempt. If you can't be bothered to invest a matter of hours in a completed end game capable MMO character, then perhaps MMOs are the wrong genre for you. If you believe the change is warranted, present an argument other than "I shouldn't have to invest time to earn the reward like the rest of the player base does." Your entire post was fallacy and I addressed the presented barriers later in the thread yet you've ignored that, an admission that your position is indefensible. When you can't argue the facts, insult the person right? Ad Hominim hooooooooo! So why make this suggestion? Because the devs have shown willingness in the past to remove barriers of entry for PvE'ers everyone that eases the grind and improves their play experience. All the changes you listed affected everyone equally. If you want changes that benefit the 1%, you need to make a stronger case than "I don't want to invest the time in my character to earn it." Why is your time more valuable than the other 99%? It's really not worth further debate consideration, because all the opposition support for the idea can be summed up as "I don't like PvP, therefore I am against anything that will benefit the people that do like it. want to invest time in earning the rewards that are important to my character so the game should be reprogrammed to give them to me for free" It's no more complicated than that. No more complicated indeed. As laid out, you can have an end game PvP character with an investment that can be measured in hours. If that's too much, perhaps MMOs are not a good fit for your playstyle. I stand by my statement and how I have summed up all the opposition support and logic for proposing this change in this thread. Just quoting this for emphasis and reiteration. If your time is more valuable than all the others who are willing to earn those rewards, you need to prove it. Plenty of PvE players gripe about grinding accolades, but I've never seen one ask to get them all for free if you feel you deserve them for free, make a stronger case than "I don't want to spend the time to earn them." Exactly the same except that it is using limited resources for the benefit of the 1% while the examples you provided benefit the entire player base equally. Again, why is your time more valuable to the point where limited resources should be devoted to letting you skip an investment the 99% would still need to make if they want that reward?

Preferred order would depend on the specific set, some are thirstier for ageless than others are. First priority IMO would always be T3 alpha for the level shift, then likely T3 destiny, Interface then Hybrid. Lore and Judgement as you see fit. Personally I would push to at least T3 in everything but Lore and Judgement before really chasing inf, but if you desperately need the inf RIGHT NOW to finish your farmer's IO build or something then use your own judgement of course.

Ah, this kind of came across as incentivizing things I guess, my bad for misinterpreting.

As a long time pvp player I've seen first hand how that usually turns out. Incentivizing pve to get pve players into pvp zones when they do not actively desire the pvp is just going to cause far more friction that you're already seeing in this thread, exponentially.

Ok, but that's not what I'm saying at all. If I was advocating fairness I would be requesting a breakdown of the number of accounts that spend the majority of their time in pvp activities vs the number of accounts that spend the majority of their time in PvE and allocating percentages of the available development time to equal those ratios. I'm not, that would leave them completely screwed and they would get nothing. I'm looking at the merit of this request on its own. There are multiple possible solutions and alternate approaches to the "problems" being presented which have not been even attempted. The reality of the situation is, if you play an MMO you will need to invest your time in having an endgame capable character. That's pretty universal. There is NO barrier to acquiring these accolades aside from being forced to put in the time to earn them, the same way everyone else does. Asking to skip that simply because you don't feel like doing to the work to earn the reward is not a request that should require investment of development resources. PvE players by and large do not enjoy grinding for these accolades either. Have you ever known anyone to actively enjoy going out to hunt down 100 fake nems? (I'm sure there's someone... there are some odd cats on the internet!). If you want a reward, you put in the time to earn it. Just because you don't happen to like that content does NOT entitle you to request the game be rewritten to accommodate your unwillingness to do the same work everyone else does for the same reward.

Very much appreciated! This is fantastic!

The " What's the deal with level 49 farming anyway?" section of the first post lays out exactly what setting you need to use to make it work. As a fresh 50 you will usually want to farm on level 50 maps with xp on until you have your incarnates in order though.

All the things you want can currently be earned in game on an exactly level playing field. Everyone who wants them, EVERYONE, earns them the same way. Let me dismantle the barriers to pvp. I can see from your signature that you have a second account. That means you have the capability to have a farmer toon to powerlevel on your main account. If you don't have a farmer, that's ANOTHER potential solution to the problem that you are choosing to not utilize. Barrier entry #1, leveling to 50. With a budget farmer build you can PL yourself to 50 in 3 hours. (As an aside I don't consider this a valid barrier to entry. Anyone who wants to play a character long term and seriously will be leveling to 50, considering this a barrier to entry speaks volumes about the entitled attitude, there are even clamped pvp zones for lower levels. Again, completely unutilized) Barrier #2, IO sets. With a budget farmer you can earn 90 million or more an hour in RAW influence, not counting any drops. That's a few hours work which can be done over time and also can be partially completely simultaneously with overcoming barrier #1. Barrier #3, Incarnates. You stated this was 10 minutes investment to be competent, not much of a barrier. Barrier #4, Accolades. An investment of time. Not difficult, but does require playing your character. None of those are exactly taxing or demanding. You want an end game completed character without putting in the time to earn an end game completed character and feel the game should be reprogrammed to hand that to you. You're damned right I consider that acting entitled, how could it be seen as anything else? So because you want to play pvp you shouldn't have to invest your time to earn the things everyone else does. Why? EDIT: In terms of a completed end game ready character Leveling must be done by both pvp and pve players. IO sets is going to be an identical expense for both pvp and pve players. Incarnates from what has been stated, less is required for pvp than an end game complete pve build. Accolades are less required for pve, yet still considered a mandatory part of a complete end game build. So even if we concede that accolades swing in favor of pvp, that would leave a pvp and pve balanced on the 4 barriers to entry, and that doesn't account for the fact that a completed incarnate build will take more time than the needed accolades. So, why is it that PvP players should receive special treatment?

You aren't happy with the experience that provides. You are unwilling to try alternative solutions. You want people to change the game so you don't have to invest time earning things (which was NOT sprung on you by surprise, everyone knows how the system works). You throw out responses like the one I quoted which do not address the substance of the statement at all, they simply provide a further reason why you are unwilling to even try the existing solutions. Then you don't want people to say that is acting entitled. EDIT: Almost as absurd as expecting people to allocate limited resources to changing the way the game works because you don't think you should have to invest time to earn things for your character like everyone else has to.

It's not a perfect solution, but it is a solution that solves every barrier to entry of play for pvp and it is not being utilized in any meaningful way. Running a second instance to serve as a chat server is not likely to tax the computer of anyone these days and offers a solution that requires zero changes to code or use of resources. It really seems this amounts to: I don't want to put in time to earn my rewards! Ok, here's a way to get all that for free! No, I don't wanna do that either, change the game for me! Justin is not a perfect solution, but the people advocating PvP in this thread have shown zero willingness to even try it. There's an available solution right now, even if less than perfect, but it isn't giving you exactly what you want, so is completely disregarded without even attempting to utilize it.

If only there was a server where you could get all of that. Justin exists and serves to remove ALL barriers to entry into pvp. This would also consolidate all of the pvp population onto a single server for better community population. Yet, you don't seem to want to even acknowledge that this exists. EDIT: So no one advocating pvp even wants to acknowledge the suggested solution of removing accolades from pvp entirely. They do not want to invest the time to earn the rewards the same way everyone else does. They do not want to play on the available server that removes all barriers to entry. They do not want to be told that they are acting entitled. That's an... interesting stance.

Alright, I'll post an equally easy to understand scenario, and I won't even have to throw in personal attacks to get there. A small number of PvP players come to a game that is heavily PvE focused, always has been and to all appearances always will be. This is embraced by the vast majority of the players of said game. The small number of PvP players then choose to participate in a completely optional and voluntary activity called PvP. To gain advantages in PvP, these players feel that they must have certain shiny bits which are only obtainable through PvE. These players decide that even though this is a PvE focused game, which was known coming into this situation, they do not want to invest the time to obtain said PvE shiny bits and the coding of the game should be changed utilizing very limited development resources so that they don't have to invest the same amount of time everyone else does to get the same result. Alternative solution to the OP. Disable all accolades in pvp. Even playing field, no investment of time needed.

This might be more meaningful if you addressed the content instead of attacking the people whose opinion you don't happen to agree with. EDIT: For example, providing a reason for this change aside from "We don't want to invest the time to earn the rewards like everyone else does" would go a long ways towards some sort of meaningful discussion.

It is a PvP zone where PvP is the intended function of the zone. The content was designed to house PvP and the missions and layout of the zone were designed to bring players into conflict with each other. Regardless if there are players there to fight or not, it is PvP content. In point of fact, I did not say I supported the idea in the OP. I think the idea itself is good. I think that looked at within the context of HC and the limited development resources therein, it's a waste and expecting those resources to be used solely because you can't be bothered to go spend the time to earn them yourself is completely entitled behavior. The ONLY barrier to having those rewards is spending the time to go get them. Is there another barrier that has not been brought up which is something other than "I don't want to go play the game to get the rewards built as a reward for playing the game?" EDIT: I believe it was already mentioned in this thread but... Justin offers free leveling to 50, free enhancements and all accolades are granted for free at level 1. If pvp players want equal footing instead of the opportunity to gank unprepared and unskilled opponents it is the ideal playground for PvP. Additionally the PvP community tends to have excellent mechanical understanding of the game and would be a great resource to catch and document bugs. Everyone wins. The only argument I've seen against this is "Well, we don't want to." Same as the reasoning for free accolades.

It's content that person does not want to engage in. Same as you. The likelyhood of a pvp encounter does nothing to change that it is forced content to acquire a reward. How is that different from asking for accolades without doing the content. They want X but do not want to do Y because they dislike that content. You want A but do not wand want to do B because you dislike that content. Why is your time or your enjoyment of content for the reward more important than theirs? Because you seem to be completely dismissing their case because you don't happen to agree with their viewpoint.

Pick one EDIT: Why is your time more valuable? They don't want to visit pvp content for a pve advantage and you dismiss that because they may not get ganked. Yet your unwillingness to do pve in a pve centric game is somehow more valid?

But why should he they have to invest that time in pvp content to get the level of performance he they want in pve? I mean, that's the core argument here right? Edit: Corrected my assumption.

So essentially, because you don't want to invest the time to get the reward, the devs should program it in for you? We've established it's not difficult to get. The primary investment is time. You've chosen to play completely optional content enjoy by a tiny minority of the player base. You don't want to invest the time needed to get the tools necessary to enjoy said content. "I have to have this to have fun. I could go get this, but I don't want to. Devs, give it to me for free?" How many people enjoy grinding accolades? I'm sure there are a few, but the vast majority do not. Again, what makes your time more valuable that it should be programmed to give you something free instead? I mean, I realize the tone is getting a little strained here but this is pretty much textbook entitlement. You don't want to go and earn it even though it's easy, and are asking a game to be reprogrammed to give it to you for free. The only barrier to acquiring it is time invested. EDIT: And while we're tossing out tact and being blunt. CoH is a PvE game. It always has been. Everyone knows this, it's not a surprise. Coming to a PvE centric game and then expecting coding changes so you don't have to do PvE in order to PvP (purely of your own choice) is some seriously entitled behavior.

So you've already stated the content is easy. You've chosen to do an entirely optional and voluntary part of content, and you don't want to invest the time (the content is easy, so the only investment is time right?) to get the tools to do your chosen content? That's... not really quality of life, that not wanting to do the same thing everyone else has to do if they want to get it. Anyone can get it, no barriers. There's literally nothing keeping you from getting it except that you don't want to go do it. Doesn't strike me as a terribly compelling argument for investment of development time.

So, what exactly is preventing any pvp player from getting them? What makes the time of a PvP player more important than the time of anyone else? Just because you don't want to do it, and it's vitally important doesn't mean dev time should be devoted to it simply so that you can skip a grind on each alt. I mean, do you honestly see this bringing new players (in any sort of appreciable numbers) to pvp who otherwise would not have tried it? It jsut seems like a request for dev time to be devoted so that players of specific content don't have to go do content they don't want to. I mean... it's incredibly easy right? So go get the accolades... only thing stopping pvp players from doing so is the desire to do it. No other barriers.

If you do not have accolades you have less endurance and consequentially less recovery. You have less HP and consequently less regeneration. You are more likely to run out of resources and more likely to die to stray damage (or while tanking). In what way is that not handicapped when compared to people who do have them? Is the handicap as crippling as trying to pvp without them? No, but "these are really important" isn't exactly solid logic for getting features that most of the player base has to invest time and effort into acquiring just for zoning into your preferred content. At any rate, best of luck to you! I just think it's important for both sides of a potential investment of the limited developer time to be presented.

They aren't and shouldn't be treated as second class citizens, I absolutely agree. But I also feel that any investment of dev resources is a waste. The resources are out there that the pvp community could literally code the changes themselves and work with homecoming to have them implement said changes here. (EDIT: With the closed source and change to 64bit client I supposed this may not be true anymore, I don't know enough about code to know for sure) If one of our existing devs is a PvP fan and wants to take on any pvp changes, more power to them I guess. Fixing a bug or an exploit is one thing, asking for a convenience feature so PvP players don't have to go grind pve like everyone else falls heavily into the realm of wasted dev time IMO. For what it's worth, I think it's actually good idea. Reducing barriers to entry into pvp is always a good thing, however... lets be honest about it, this change is pretty unlikely to actually introduce new players to pvp, the interest simply isn't there. It will just let pvp players not have to go grind pve like everyone else has to. I rarely run TFs of any sort and have not run a single iTrial since pre-shut down. It would be awful convenient if I could get the accolades just for zoning into an iTrial, and I'm at a handicap not having them (I have 0 accolades that I'm aware of on any HC character). This suggestion would be met with sheer ridicule. Seems like a bit of a double standard to ask for it in a different type of content to me.

I for one, do not want parity. I've been an avid pvp player for as long as I've been gaming online. Starcraft, Diablo 2 pvp, Dark Ages of Camelot, Shadowbane, WoW, Mobas and too many more to name. I enjoy pvp and always have. If one of the HC devs read so much as the OP of this thread, that's more dev investment into CoH pvp than I would like to see. It's a lost cause and it's a mess. With the recent thread on numbers of ATs and such, I would love to see a breakdown of the amount of time spent on PvE vs PvP. Most online game organizers have realized that investing in content that is only consumed by a fraction of a percent of your game population is not a winning strategy. I feel for the PvP players, they can't win here because even if they do get some balancing people will be resentful because of the resources allocated, as well as any changes (even if they aren't nerfs) that spill over into pve. The ideal solution (IMO of course) would be for the dedicated PvP community to use the source code that is out there and create their own server where they can actually unfuck pvp and perhaps make it playable and interesting. This could also serve to consolidate the pvp population. I've not seen any discussion of anyone doing so however. EDIT: I just wanted to say that I'm sure this post will anger some people but I prefer to be a realist. Devoting resources to something utilized by what I suspect is 1% of the population (possibly less) is not a good plan.