Galaxy Brain

Infinitum, your build isnt an issue, how you used it was.

Wasn't this thread about summoning minions that look different in a vidya game?

KM has a fun niche when paired with /Shield to have constant big damage boosts, and MA has a ton of side effects now that can do weird stuff... Anywho, I have made a spreadsheet (*gasp*) to try and map the DPS vs Endurance Use of TW vs other melee sets. The rules were as follows: Using a Scrapper as a base for numbers to avoid stuff like Fury / Bruising (also ignoring Crits for right now) Primary Attacks Only, all attacks are slotted for 3 dam (~95%), and 1 Acc/End/Rech (~33%) Brawl is allowed during gaps (1 acc slotted) Stamina is 3 slotted, giving 2.48 end/sec recovery No outside boosts from armor sets, pool powers, ally buffs, etc for now The attack chain used will attempt to squeeze in as much damage until End runs out. Once there is a gap where you need to wait for End to refill, it stops. AoE's are used, but this is assuming some sort of single training dummy for now https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1W6KAQFJwSP44hd1MHJiPPYCw4yFetHvTomfbMQR3z2M/edit?usp=sharing I only had time to play with TW and WM, but here are some spark notes: TW DPS = 190.56 over 31.63 sec WM DPS = 178.57 over 57.30 sec WM was around 58% more endurance efficient than TW when averaged between TOTAL END used over time and NET END used over time (counting recovery) WM's Whirling Mace was not used as it is booty when compared to it's ST and Cones, especially compared to TW's AoEs TW has a ton of other perks compared to WM's Stuns and Knock downs, including bonus range on the AoEs to make them friendlier in big groups. TW had 80% momentum uptime, and discounting the initial swing to start the chain there were 2 times where momentum had to be gained via a tohit roll. Overall these two top tier sets are very close, but the achilles heel for TW seems to be Endurance usage as it ran out of gas in half the time of WM, but did more DPS and offered -Res. If there is any outside +End sources from secondaries, IO's, or support, I feel that TW would snowball much harder than WM in the same scenario...

EM, Broadsword, Battle Axe are under-performers off the top of my head. Broadsword in particular is a victim of progression where as it has direct competition from Katana, War Mace, and Titan Weapons and doesn't do much to stand out from those.

Would you rather we buff all other sets by 20% damage across the board and make the game even more trivial? Edit: Sorry if I came off as crass, but what we are talking about it to keep TW as a top tier set but just reel it in slightly out of the "S" tier it stands alone on.

@Infinitum, building for AoE is fun as hell but when you were comparing EM's single target dps to TW's you did not run the same sort of test. EM only has whirling hands for AoE so the chain you used would be best on a single target at a time. The TW chain in turn, for a fair comparison, should be the one youd use on a single target as well. Same as if you were comparing EM and say, Street Justice but leaned on the AoE attacks instead of ST attacks in there.

@Infinitum, this is not a build issue this is a queuing up attacks issue. Hopeling is giving you a more optimal queue of attacks for Single Target damage when comparing a single target DPS test against another Single Target chain from a mainly ST set. @Haijinx, I think I will just need some data on what to pull... like 3 slot stamina.... account for standard armors/other toggles running as well for end costs (assuming no end redux in the these).... etc

Everyone is stating that IOs should not count, the only alternative is SO's or generic IO slotting.

I would very much like to test this as iirc the numbers on SO's haven't really been quantified? What would be "standard" SO slotting per attack power, like 3 dam / 1 acc/end/rech?

So wait, you werent using a ST attack chain on TW to compare to a ST attack chain on EM, and it got within 10% of the ST focused set and you're using that as proof?

Thats where the data comes in. Since we cannot rely on each other's experiences we can point to what the game says about the set as that is something we can both objectively quantify. Assuming you and I both play with equal skill, the numbers will speak to the results.

Lol, my first melee was a MA/Regen scrapper. MA got better over time but is still a bit middle of the road. As for Regen..... What makes your experience more impactful than mine, or mine more impactful than your's?

Because I love the game is why, and I hate that after playing TW that other melee sets just feel absolutely worse. From early on where you can jump into a group and swing two cones around, and smack LT's to death and just feel mighty, to later on when you become a true force of destruction, its hard to jump from that to sets like Broadsword, Martial Arts or even Super Strength (just look at all the threads talking about Rage & the set's overall design and how with double-rage it still cant touch TW) and get the same feeling of power that TW has. The set has drawbacks, but its nothing you cannot play around if you are paying attention which leads some players away from it early on in favor of easier sets / thematic sets, but those who stick with it see the power it holds. As long as TW is a step ahead of other sets though, then it becomes the benchmark to be compared to. Again, look at the SS threads where TW is brought up jokingly as a comparison to where x2 rage isn't seen as up to snuff. The game is already easy enough as is, and as you optimize it gets even more so (and judgements are goofy in normal content...), and a team full of supports causes everything to steamroll anyways but thats another can of worms. Back to the first point though, other discussions for bringing under performing sets up to par will inevitably be compared to TW and cause further power creep. If TW is brought in line to be within the Top Tier instead of the S tier then there are more avenues for comparison when looking at other set's performances.

I have already went over how that is a gimmick. My Bot/Trap could do that on live at lvl 34 without IOs due to game mechanics and how GMs don't tend to run about / are huge targets for patch-type powers. But this is beside the point as that is a super niche part of the game that does not net huge rewards compared to a set that is overperforming in most areas of the game. It feels that there is no way to reach common ground with you as anything brought up as "feeling" from people who believe that TW overperforms is countered by your feeling that it does not. If numbers are brought up, they are dismissed as outliers to outliers in broken scenarios or the product of spreadsheet nerdery. As for those who comment without a lvl 50, anybody can roll up a lvl 50 right now on the Pineapple server to test those feels right now if they so wish. Its not a matter of it even needing a TW-sized nerf bat taken to it. As @Steampunketteput it it could be tweaked down by 10% at the high end and be right in line with other sets when it performs under high end conditions without effecting average play. Her suggestion on Page 1 even gives more up-time for momentum which makes the set easier to use and queue up. What I would like to ask though, is what in your eyes could be presented as a test to show that TW is not, or is overperforming?

This is a video game that is made of formulas.

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/search/?&q=Pylon&type=forums_topic&page=2&item=10006&search_and_or=or&sortby=newest Out of 266 posts, 43 contained the word "Pylon" (16%), and searching through that it seems to be all mentions of "This is due to pylon times" or "can we not use pylon times?" with only 1 or 2 posts actually bringing up the data from Pylons, and even mentioning how it is unreliable due to Regen Tick Rates. As for objectivity, "Game Feel" is the opposite of objective. This game runs on numbers and those are objective data points that can be measured and compared. Nobody is asking to "EM" Titan Weapons, just to make it comparable to other top tier sets. You do seem to care about this due to how much you are fighting against it, and you have been uncooperative when asked how we could better present findings / tests in real examples to help your points.

You keep ignoring our asks for attack chains, and I even offered you the chance to provide us with alternative tests on SOs that we could run. TW has drawbacks, that has never been ignored. However, the drawbacks are easily mitigated and it has more strengths than it has downsides especially when the big downside is not seen as often as the uptime.

Omg I'd love for traps to just get gun drone as a T9. Time bomb *and* trip mine are just weird from design real estate to me. Anywho, the main point we are arguing in circles is that others as well as myself feel that TW is an outlier in that it performs just above where it seems the high end should be. In certain circumstances, well above that mark. Taking it down a peg at the high end without impacting the basic feel or low end performance would bring it more in line with other top tier sets. On top of this, lower end sets would have less of a benchmark to compete with in a round about way lol.

We are not talking Pylon times. On page 3, @Hopelingposted raw numbers showing that each power in TW goes above what damage it should do even in it's slow form, on top of the other bonuses TW gets. Speaking of, did you ever get the activation times for the powers with/without momentum Hopeling?

That is the thread for how many get to 50. Those number show the amount of merc/ , ninja/, etc characters on HC at lvl 50

It seems Mercs are below Ninjas 😛

Well, we will need to agree on a certain metric for basic slotting. Such as 3 dam / 1 acc / 1 end / 1 rech for all powers to get your "average joe" experience. Then whatever X factors are available like pools, secondary powers, etc to compare. To accommodate for in-game factors, we can add in % chance to knock away an enemy as a drop in effect, look into damage type resists, look into target caps, etc. Whatever *you* would feel would be good to simulate.

Yeah it really did. I think this will keep going in circles unless we get some concrete data on like, SO / Common IO level between different sets. We have the numbers available for TW, other sets, and secondaries. We can put together the math to show how it could perform at any level.

You still havent given us the builds and attack chains for your EM vs TW test. Technically we are just taking your word at face value on those.

Neither side is invalid, but its undeniable that it has more cases where its an outlier, a big one at that, than other sets. Sure, Bio makes everything crazy, but then it makes TW super-crazy. Same with a TW/WP vs another /WP, or a TW/Fire vs a Spines/Fire outside of specific farms, or a TW/Elec that gives it endurance tools and recharge, etc, etc.