KelvinKole

This sounds right on the money to me. Totally good with it.

I don't think so on Scrappers. Stalker version of Energy Melee has an Energy Transfer that can't crit and Total Focus that can't crit for double damage, so the precedent for something like this is out there. Obviously, Stalkers don't even get Dark Consumption so this change isn't relevant to them but they do have that limitation elsewhere. You may have already been aware. Let's also not forget about Brutes. A large portion of what makes them tick is the +dmg from Fury and their higher +dmg cap. Making a power that reacts differently to their core mechanics could also be seen as bad form.

I'm less concerned about the implications inside of dark melee as a set and more about the special case it creates in general. If someone makes a dark melee character with intentions to duo or team with other sources of +dmg, will there be a way for them to know that dark consumption is on a curve and that powers in other sets have higher damage potential? It just feels like a hidden variable that's also not going to be easily understood.

I like the direction, but am weary of the approach. I don't like the idea of special rules being built into a power for the sake of one or two outlying conditions. Some of the formulas in this game are complicated enough without having to introduce a curve. Does lightning rod have this rule? If not, I'd say adjust the base damage to make it more in line with what people know and understand.

This is what I've been playing the most lately. There's not a ton of accurate information out there about Savage Melee, so if anyone is interested in a build that uses it then this may be helpful. More on what's weird above Savage Melee in this thread: The recent Tanker changes were kind to Savage Melee; All of it's AoE powers received radius/arc increases and target cap increases. This means Savage Leap and Rending Flurry (when used with 5 stacks of blood frenzy) are HUGE AoEs that are really great at grabbing attention. Shred is an easy to use and very effective cone. The build caps resistances to all but Energy and Toxic. Toxic sits at 79% though, so I wouldn't really call it a hole. A few things to note: Mids doesn't reflect the 6% Fire/Cold Resistance that you get for 6 slotting Gauntleted Fist. Fire and Cold don't show capped, but they are. Dark Regen is available roughly every 10-12 seconds (depending on hasten, ageless, and how many stacks of blood frenzy you keep) as a 0-100 heal. Theft of Essence proc works great, but I could honestly probably drop it..... There are zero endurance issues with this build, and there still wouldn't be even if I dropped Conserve Power and Physical Perfection. I just don't have the slots to really make anything else worthwhile. I know sometimes endurance demands is a complaint about dark armor, but blood frenzy is really useful for offsetting that, even while leveling. Melee defense is soft-capped. Range and AoE are at useful levels at 24%. No defense debuff resistance though, so nearly all of that can get chewed away quickly. Ageless helps there. If you wanted to go more defensive, you could swap Assault Hybrid for Melee Hybrid. I just don't ever find myself in enough trouble to need it, but you can get both. I probably have enough tohit and accuracy to drop the kismet global IO. I like it for when tohit debuffs are applied, but honestly I don't know how much it's really helping. If i have one regret, I wish it had more hitpoints. I never need them, but my goal was 2500 and I couldn't get there. I guess with the Gauntleted Fists proc I'm functionally there though. Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.962 http://www.cohplanner.com/ Click this DataLink to open the build! Level 50 Magic Tanker Primary Power Set: Dark Armor Secondary Power Set: Savage Melee Power Pool: Leaping Power Pool: Force of Will Power Pool: Fighting Power Pool: Speed Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery Hero Profile: Level 1: Dark Embrace -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(3), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg(3), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(5), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(5), UnbGrd-Max HP%(17) Level 1: Savage Strike -- Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg(A), Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48), Mk'Bit-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Mk'Bit-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(48) Level 2: Death Shroud -- SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(A), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(36) Level 4: Shred -- Obl-Dmg(A), Obl-Acc/Rchg(21), Obl-%Dam(23), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(43), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45) Level 6: Obsidian Shield -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(7), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg(7), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(9), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(19), GldArm-3defTpProc(33) Level 8: Murky Cloud -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(9), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg(15), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(17), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(19), StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(21) Level 10: Dark Regeneration -- TchoftheN-Acc/EndRdx/Heal/HP/Regen(A), TchoftheN-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(11), TchoftheN-Acc/Heal(11), ThfofEss-+End%(13) Level 12: Taunt -- PrfZng-Dam%(A), PrfZng-Taunt(27), PrfZng-Taunt/Rchg(27), PrfZng-Acc/Rchg(29) Level 14: Cloak of Darkness -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(25), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(25), Ksm-ToHit+(36) Level 16: Vicious Slash -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg(A), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg(42), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(43), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb(50) Level 18: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Rchg+(A), Krm-ResKB(39) Level 20: Maiming Slash -- Hct-Dmg(A), Hct-Dmg/Rchg(23), Hct-Dam%(31), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), Hct-Acc/Rchg(37), Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(39) Level 22: Mighty Leap -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A) Level 24: Boxing -- Empty(A) Level 26: Super Speed -- BlsoftheZ-ResKB(A) Level 28: Rending Flurry -- Arm-Dmg(A), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(45), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), Arm-Acc/Rchg(46), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(46), Arm-Dam%(50) Level 30: Tough -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(31), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg(31), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(33) Level 32: Weave -- ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(A), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(33), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(34), ShlWal-Def(34), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(36) Level 35: Blood Thirst -- RechRdx-I(A), GssSynFr--Build%(37) Level 38: Savage Leap -- ScrDrv-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), ScrDrv-Acc/Dmg(39), ScrDrv-Dmg/EndRdx(40), Obl-%Dam(40), ScrDrv-Dam%(40), Erd-%Dam(50) Level 41: Soul Transfer -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A) Level 44: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45) Level 47: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A) Level 49: Physical Perfection -- Prv-Absorb%(A) Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A) Level 1: Gauntlet Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A) Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A) Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A) Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A) Level 4: Ninja Run Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A) Level 2: Health -- Mrc-Rcvry+(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(29) Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A) Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-End%(A) Level 1: Blood Frenzy Level 50: Cardiac Core Paragon Level 50: Assault Radial Embodiment Level 50: Degenerative Partial Radial Conversion Level 50: Ageless Radial Epiphany ------------

@Jimmy I'm rereading my post and realizing that it probably came off as being ungrateful. I'm not. I LOVED this game in my youth and the excitement I felt when I heard it was back rivaled only marrying my wife and the birth of my kids (is that sad?). I'm truly appreciative of the amazing things the homecoming team is doing. My comment was meant to express that I thought there may be higher priorities that your limited resources could focus on, but I also understand the value of quick win. Sincerely, thank you. With DC no longer being able to crit, things are going in the right direction. There is a lot of good data from @Galaxy Brain that shows dark melee may in fact have been underperforming, but I will say that the test is really a measure of dps; it's harder to quantify the sustain that dark melee provides and assign value to it, but that doesn't mean we should ignore it when trying to buff its damage. Moving it up to a top performer in dps is truly an overcorrection.

This not a new debate. There's two schools of thought: those that think every set should be capable of the same things and those who think each set should have unique highs and lows. I'm of the latter and you seem to be of the former, so we're not going to get much further. I'll just say that CoH is a game that's had success due in large part to its replay ability, with each new alt presenting the opportunity to not only play differently but actually feel different from other sets. Making everything the same diminishes that, so now electric melee plays a lot like dark melee which plays a lot like radiation melee.. Also, titan weapons is low on utility. Hopefully it gets a self heal and endurance recovery tool soon.

Which honestly begs the question, why was time even put into this? I don't recall seeing dozens of forum posts screaming for a dark melee rework. Martial arts? Yes. Energy Melee? Yes. Force field? Yes. Electric blast? Yes. Dark melee? Nah, it's fine. Voice of customer should be heard.

Stalkers having low Aoe potential? Once upon a time, yes. The original version of stalkers had their power sets stripped of Aoe attacks because they were supposed to be a stealthy assassin type with high single target burst potential. Later on, Stalkers were pretty much remade into slightly less durable Scrappers with higher and more controlled crit potential. Power sets that were ported to stalkers after those changes kept their Aoe attacks; only the original sets lack Aoe.

I assume you're playing the same game that I am. Everyone will have that down to 30 seconds or less; It's usable every spawn to nuke all the minions and lieutenants. That's enough not to need another AoE. A lot of people seem to think that more AoE = more better since the state of the game is so AoE heavy, but when everyone is done with their opening nukes you need single target dps to clean up the tough mobs and keep a fast pace.

I'm gonna throw out a radical idea in the name of not trying to fix what isn't broken. Dark consumption is a utility power that already had enough value to consider taking and serviceable proc and damage potential. A shorter recharge may have been all that was needed. Instead of changing it, why not focus on the powers in the set that are obviously avoided by most people: shadow maul and touch of fear? I might then get more on board with the proposed changes to shadow maul and we could then make touch of fear something really interesting. Turn ToF into the PBAoE and then have a complete set full of truly valuable powers for people to choose from, and actually benefits Stalkers, the class that has one of the lowest Aoe potentials.

I realize that. The thing is it still has a longer animation than midnight grasp and now the damage has been reduced, apparently in favor of making it easier to hit multiple targets. Tankers may like this, but I don't think it becomes a more attractive power choice for other archetypes, because you don't need another AoE when you can take out everything but bosses with Dark Consumption:

I'd want to see a debuff resistance added before an endurance discount. Most other sets get debuff resistance of at least one kind: Defense, slow, recovery, etc.. I think dark armor should have tohit debuff resistance. It does get some protection from end drain, which is nice given its high demands.

I'm not quite sure I agree that any of these changes were necessary. Does every set really need to have nuke potential? Call me stubborn, but dark melee held a niche spot among other melee sets for offering great single target dps and survivability. It was okay that it didn't have a lot of Aoe, and now it might be too good. That said, I can get on board with the dark consumption change but I'm not in favor of the shadow maul changes. The issue now is it doesn't have a place in the dark melee attack chain, due mostly to its long animation relative to the rest of the set and not so much that the aoe is hard to use. Id rather see the cast time reduced, damage left where it is, and recharge increased. Make it a higher dpa attack with the same small cone for those that take the time to line it up. A burstier option than midnight grasp.

Fire armor is the default choice. Rad melee is probably the most effecient, but I think spines, Savage, fire, super strength, and possibly even ice will work.

I don't think anyone is really saying it's that bad. But when most other sets can cap multiple resistances and still get to the defense cap, and/or still benefit from external defense buffs then the ceiling is much higher on other sets. Super reflexes has a really high floor but the ceiling is likely lower.

Meet Wireless Will. Paragon City's newest Super Reflexes/Kinetic Melee Tanker. He lives inside the vast network of radio signals all around us, constantly connected and everywhere all at once. He is able to manifest a physical form of pure data to dislike his foes in person!

Yes, I can see some synergy in both of those combos. Stone actually has a lot of CC with Kb/Kd and you can just straight up hold bosses with seismic smash. As a melee controller, it may be one of the best sets. Ice too has a lot slows and ice patch, as you mentioned. Pairing with SR means less attacks are coming at you and the percentages stay in your favor. Another strong melee controller set. Frost and Frozen aura should really enjoy the recent changes.

There does seem to be a bit of a consensus forming. Weakest primaries seem to be either Fire or Super Reflexes. Fire does offer some damage mitigation in the form of removing enemies via fiery embrace and burn, and also has a very fast recharging heal. Resistances are not as bad as people might think. Super reflexes is a one trick pony, but with a very good trick. It will however have almost nothing to gain from external defense buffs or IO set bonuses. Good resistance buffs are not as common, so rounding out a stat sheet will be more difficult. I think I'll try my turn at Super Reflexes. Secondaries seem less certain. Energy Melee blooms late but with long activation powers (maybe not an issue with a passive set like super reflexes). It also offers almost no active damage mitigation (kb/kd, slows, etc.), but I guess a chance to stun is something. Stone melee and kinetic melee have also been mentioned. Super Reflxes/Kinetic melee might be interesting.

This combo would be exhausting to level organically. A masochist dream. But IOs and incarnates could solve the endurance issues and you'd have two top tier sets. Is dual blades as trashy as it looks on paper? Some longish animation times, relience on combos, and unimpressive damage given those conditions.

If someone wanted to really expose themselves to some pain... Really live at the lower limits of tank performance... What sets would they use? Is there a unanimous worst choice for primary and secondary? ... Asking for a friend.

Ah, okay. That's the history I didn't have. Thanks.

Agreed, the description probably just needs updating. I'm not actually sure Savage Leap is a pseudopet. It is a direct PBAoE attack that requires a target, like fireball, that happens to also teleport you. It's not ground targeted like other teleattacks that are pseudopet, and procs in a predictable way like a normal attack. Its damage is somehow dependent on the distance away from target, which adds some complexity but I would think can be quantified. Rending Flurry should actually be more straightforward, I think. it's just a PBAoE attack with bonus damage based on stacks of Blood Frenzy and a larger radius if you have 5 stacks. I probably agree with you on blood thirst, but if blood frenzy ever did do +damage then the value makes some sense; you'd net out at +53% damage for 15 seconds. When/If blood frenzy was changed to provide +recharge, that value may not have been adjusted. 33% seems low, or I'm just biased and want it to be higher.

I can absolutely confirm that procs work too well in Savage Leap. I'm not aware of any reason why shield charge or lightning rod would work differently.