Nerva

Semantics, and makes no real difference, besides. It's a fact that Hero 1 wielded the powers of the Well as an Incarnate via Excalibur. Whether the Well gave it to him (and it was indeed given to him by an agent of the Well, specifically The Lady of the Lake) is irrelevant. You could say that Stephen Richter and Marcus Cole found the Well of Zeus and the waters they drank were the link, it wouldn't change the fact that they were granted power from the Well via some physical manifestation of it. Sources: https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Hero_1 https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Lady_of_the_Lake https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Mender_Ramiel#Retrieve_the_stolen_Incarnate_container Arachnos may have existed before Recluse. Recluse made it what it is today. It was Recluse's leadership that made Arachnos go from one of many organizations hiding on the Rogue Isles, to becoming the authority on the archipelago. I'm not saying that the Well gave Recluse Arachnos - I'm saying that the power, intellect, cunning, ruthlessness and indeed, leadership necessary to join Arachnos, rise through its ranks rapidly, and then take it over likely came from the Well. Prior to drinking from the Well of Zeus and opening Pandora's Box, Stefan Richter demonstrated no capability that would've let him defeat The Weaver, or even get close to him, let alone become one of The Weaver's most trusted minions and convince Red Widow to assassinate The Weaver on his behalf. Prior to being an Incarnate, Stefan was a technocrat caring for an ailing mustard gas victim he took in after their parents died. Afterward, he joins Arachnos, becomes one of The Weaver's top lieutenants, becomes head of their entire operation in North America, and then swiftly decapitates and takes over the entire organization in one fell swoop. It was then that he started developing his signature glowing red eyes and spider limbs. He goes on to become the ruler of a criminal empire and from there the de facto ruler of a small nation. Even though the Well says that Recluse resists using the Well's power save as strictly necessary, I highly doubt that was all his own skills. If it was otherwise, he could've done it before the encounter with the Well of Zeus. Further, the Well has demonstrated the ability to both control those who've accessed it directly, and subtly influence those who seek power, particularly its power. Sources: https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Lord_Recluse#History https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Rogue_Isles#20th_Century_and_Beyond https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Mender_Ramiel#Speak_with_Statesman/Lord_Recluse Fair enough. That still leaves an immense breadth of abilities that the Well has demonstrated the ability to grant.

I think the naysayers are vastly underselling the power of the Well. Consider that the Well is powerful enough to mimic high technology and ancient magic with equal aplomb. It can flagrantly flip the bird to the laws of physics. It can mimic psionics. It can openly empower people with the capabilities of gods, mythological beings, and legendary artifacts. The Well is capable of manifesting anything that can give a person power. If you do the Incarnate questline as a Tech character, the Artifact of the Well that serves as your link to it is a technology schematic. As a Natural character, it's a mirror. As a Magic character, it's a a solid object in the shape of a sigil or rune. Each origin's artifact is different. When the Well empowered Statesman, he gained invulnerability, super strength, and electric powers. When it empowered Hero 1, it gave him the actual Excalibur. When it empowered Lord Recluse, aside from the spider limbs emerging from his back and some energy melee capabilities, he's not shown many overt powers of clearly-supernatural origin. And yet, he's such a potent leader that he has the entirety of Arachnos - an organization as powerful as any third-world nation (and given that it rules the Etoile Islands, it is one) - at his beck-and-call. Recluse has a combination of weaponry, technology, connections, and minions that when taken together match or even exceed any other Incarnate's powers. When it empowered Trapdoor, he gained teleportation, energy melee and energy blast, as well as refining his teleportation to the point he could be in multiple places at the same time. Stheno became a psionic snake-woman, and the mother of an entire race of snakepeople beneath Mercy Island. In player hands, the powers of the Well can summon echoes of things from the past, present, and maybe even future. This ranges from ghosts to living light to Rikti to robot drones, from Rularuu's creations to agents of the Furies, to Tsoo gangers, to Nemesis's soldiers. Nuclear weapons are among the most destructive creations of modern science, and have quite literally shaped history. They've been mythologized and had stories told about them, and nuclear technology and nuclear accidents have even been the origins of numerous superheroes. If anything would qualify as a legendary artifact of the modern age, it would be a nuclear weapon. I really don't feel the Well of Furies is as limited as some people here think it is, when it comes to the breadth and depth of the abilities it can grant.

Fire is pretty common. Off the top of my head, the Hellions, Minions of Igneus in the Hollows, Destroyers, and Fir Bolg in Croatoa, all have hefty contingents of Fire wielders. There's also the Legacy Chain's Lineage of Fire casters, and Tsoo Far Fires wield it too. Many bombs, grenades, rockets, and naturally flamethrowers and the like also deal fire damage, so you're liable to see it among Fifth Column, Council, Nemesis, Longbow, Malta, and other paramilitary types. as well as Praetorian Clockwork. Cold is significantly rarer. There's very few groups that specialize in it, and only a few more that actually use it. The Winter Horde is naturally the main offender as you'd no doubt expect, but the Coralax, Tsoo, Crey, Malta, and Banished Pantheon all have users of Cold. Outcasts, Circle of Thorns, Animus Arcana, and Crey Paragon Protectors, have wide selections of damage types and have specialists in both Fire and Cold attacks. These are all I can think of just off the top of my head, there's liable to me more I'm missing.

I like the idea of Brutes moving faster under Fury. The madder they get, the faster they go between one victim and the next. They move at the speed of HATE.

Since I've seen people who believe that influence, infamy, and information are mechanically different from one another, I figured it was safest to assume you're serious until proven otherwise.

There are no refunds of any kind of inf from Pay2Win or Transact4Victory.

Don't look at me; I want the Stalker talk to stop too, hence why I invited @UltraAlt to get back on the subject of Sentinels and actually support their point. Twice. I'm not really trying to bicker here, but I do get very frustrated when someone puts forward a point and refuses to justify or support it, and then gets hostile with me when I call them on it.

Y'know, it's funny. You come into a thread I made, you accuse me of making points I vehemently haven't and of holding positions I vehemently wouldn't, you've consistently been off-topic, you've been openly hostile to the topic, and yet here you are saying that you're done talking to me. And you're still posting here. How hilarious is that? I gave you a chance to participate on the topic and to actually explain your views and support them. I tried to engage you in some real conversation here. Did you forget this? Because you never bothered to respond to it. This isn't a situation where you can just go "I'm right because I say so." This is a forum, it's here for discussion, you support your points here. Give reasons to show why you think you're right, examples to help people understand your reasons, and let them be debated. Maybe see if you can convince me of your point; I'm not some fanatic that can't be swayed, but the only way someone sways me to a point is to have a damn good point in the first place and be willing to support it. Yes, I debate points ferociously, because it's fun and I'm invested in doing so. I want to see Sentinel become better as an AT because of it. If you want to make the point that Sentinel needs no changes as it stands, and it's player error holding them back, then fine, do it. I would welcome that. I will debate it, because I don't agree with it, but if you can actually make a salient point to the effect I welcome it's presence in this thread. So far, all you've done is post a bunch of images, make a poor point that got shot down, and got mad about it when you got called out on it. That's not discussion in good faith.

I hate to say this, but you're kinda missing the point of the thread. What we're discussing is an AT that performs passably solo but suffers from a lack of real offerings to a team. This thread was made with the express goal of improving the AT's teaming experience and desirability on teams. As a result, its solo performance is beside the point, and the idea of Sentinel being poor at soloing is a nonissue because it isn't. Only a massive, from-the-ground-up overhaul and redesign of the AT might change that, and that's not been what's proposed in this thread so far. The closest we've come are the few people suggesting that the Blast set be swapped for Assault. HEATs and VEATs are hard to compare to any standard achetype, and pointing out how bad Kheldian archetypes might be is a subject for another thread. Changes made to Sentinels will not diminish or improve their experience in any noteworthy fashion. Comparing them simply because they exist is foolishness. May as well directly compare Sentinels to Controllers; you could do it, but you wouldn't get any worthwhile information out of it.

Let's see if I can organize some of the points being talked about. Overlap between ATs is fine. Being objectively underpowered at your role(s) isn't. Having an underdeveloped role is not alright. Having multiple fully-developed competent roles is. Soloing ability is outside the consideration of this thread. An AT that can solo well but performs badly on teams is not well-balanced, since this game is generally team-based and advancement at the endgame is tied to team-oriented activities. Some things I've observed in teaming, on Sentinel and other ATs: It's very rare for any AT to be flatly rejected. This doesn't necessarily mean that an AT isn't poorly performing, it just means that the other ATs are good enough for it not to matter for the bulk of the game's content. Some ATs are preferred for their specialist nature, others for their broad range competence. Brutes, Scrappers, and Controllers are chosen for broad competency; Blasters, Stalkers, Tankers, and Defenders are chosen for being specialists in their fields. Dominators, Corruptors, and Sentinels occupy an odd gray area, whose properties I haven't quite identified - if there's even a common gray area between those ATs at all. HEATS and VEATs are intensely difficult to compare to regular ATs. It'd be a good idea to avoid comparisons involving them when possible, So what does the Sentinel do as it stands? Deal moderate damage, from modest range, to a limited number of targets simultaneously Is durable, but lacks aggro control mechanisms common to other durable ATs (taunt/challenge/hide/placate) Has little to no capacity for hard control; has minor capacity for soft control, but only on some powersets Lacks sniper powers on its Blast set, but has a fast-recharging T9 nuke on most of its Blast sets Generally lacks stacking-per-enemy-in-range toggles on its Defense sets, but often has an extra click self-buff or toggle Has a damage-oriented inherent with minor self-buffing and team support abilities Does this sound like a fairly correct analysis? If not, what have I got wrong here?

False equivalency. You're equating 'vanilla' with 'plain' - it's not. Again you're bringing up other ATs in a Sentinel thread. But hey, I'll entertain this one because it's a perfect illustration of my point. Controllers have the tools to operate from midline, by using Control powers (seriously, it's right there in the name!) to stop enemies from advancing. Meanwhile, Sentinel damage is low, which interferes with just straight up killing strong strays; their target cap is low, which interferes with killing mobs of weak strays; they don't have taunt or control powers, which means they can't distract strays; and only a few powersets actually have widespread access to KB or other soft control tools to 'keep strays busy'. Even if there are Controllers or Doms in a party with a Sentinel, if a Control powers are on a stray mob then the Sentinel is doing nothing to intervene aside from deal damage. You could replace the Sentinel in this situation with a blaster, a scrapper, a stalker, a corruptor, a brute, a tanker, even a freakin' Defender and either do the job better, or bring more to the table for the party once the crisis is over. The Controller is protecting the midline, the Sentinel is just another DPS, and not even a particularly good one. And that there is the entire point of this thread. All of the others either have exceptional damage or something besides their damage to offer a party. Sentinel doesn't. Hey, if you're going to accuse me of something I'm not doing or being, door's that way. I'm not against Sentinels. If I was, I'd be advocating for the AT to be straight friggin' deleted. I want to improve Sentinels so that they have a clear role in a party and have the tools to handle that role properly. I don't care really what that role is so long as it's valuable and welcomed. I'm not even particularly attached to my initial idea, because a lot of other people have pointed out others that I see equally as valid. Sentinels could very well be the midline squishy-protectors you see them as, I just want them to have the tools to do it and do it well. They currently don't. Emphasis mine. Fair points, but that last line is of particular note. The Brute can pull its weight well enough. It's not as good at tanking as a tanker, in terms of durability or taunt generation - that's just a simple fact. But it's got enough that in most content, you won't notice a difference and the Brute's got extra damage aside, meaning the team as a whole puts down mobs faster. It doesn't have the damage output of a Scrapper or Blaster, but is more durable and can grab any strays that manage to escape the tank, meaning both it and the whole team is safer. Finally, the combination of damage and durability means it's easy to play solo and fun if you want to just run up to enemies and smash heads. This is why we're not complaining about Brutes "not having a role." They have roles - in fact, they're suitable for a couple roles (Melee DPS, tank, offtank) based on what the party needs, and if a party doesn't need one the Brute can switch up roles without even having to change playstyle much. A Brute can change roles in a party just by switching targets - smash things on the tank when DPS is needed, smash things not on the tank and headed for the backfield when squishies need protecting, smash things attacking you when you are the tank. Simple, direct, effective. Sentinel, however, is not filling its roles well enough on a team. Yeah, it can solo, it's fun for that. But while it could be DPS on a team, its damage is anemic. It could be a midline squishy protector, but it lacks the damage, soft or hard control, and/or aggro generation to do that reliably through control or tanking. It could possibly be an armored support but only does that through its inherent as it has no powers in either set that readily support allies or meaningfully debuff enemies. Which brings us back around to the driving question of this thread - what is the Sentinel's intended role(s) on a team, and what tools are they lacking to do that job well? Personally, I'm not particularly attached to any given role. I was originally, but opinions change, especially with some of the better reasoning put forward in this thread. @aethereal puts forward that they're ranged DPS; I'd be cool with that, if their damage bore out the role and their defense set saw use in typical play in that role. @UltraAlt puts forward that they're midline squishy-protectors, and I'd be cool with that, if their control or aggro generation were enough to button up strays that peel off the tank due to overaggro by a squishy or failure to maintain aggro properly by the tank. I don't care what Sentinels are supposed to do so long as they do it, and do it well enough to be desired for it. Right now, the only place a Sentinel performs well enough is in solo play, and if that's all that they're meant to do, fine. But if that's the case, I just want some dev confirmation that this is all they're meant for.

Hmm. If it is, as you say, a matter of 'opinion and not fact' then the opinion is hardly just mine. And yet they aren't built to fight from the midline. They have no aggro generation to intercept anything, and thus can't serve as a defensive line. They are being out-aggroed by backline characters and their lowered target caps mean that if too many mobs peel off the tank and start heading for the backfield at once, Sentinel can't do much to stop it even if they can catch aggro. I have played Sentinels, and I have had these problems. I stopped playing Sentinels because of these problems. I am trying to figure out exactly what I'm doing wrong, if anything. If I'm not (which from the number of similar experiences I see from people playing them, I'm inclined to believe I'm not) I'd like to see them fixed to have a better-realized role and niche in party dynamics. Your anecdotes are no more or less valuable than anyone else's here. If you truly think other people are playing it wrong, give some examples of your playstyle, how you find a useful position in a party, and justify your criticism. Perhaps you have an insight that others could benefit from. Otherwise, I'm inclined to take your claims with a grain of salt, because you're basically saying "I don't have a problem, you all need to git gud" and then not elaborating on what "gitting gud" actually entails. Stalker's role is similar to that of Scrapper - survivable melee DPS. Unlike Scraper however, Stalker has a focus on initiation and spike damage. Where scrapper takes it on the chin on the regular, deals high and steady damage with occasional bursts from Critical Hit, and can intercept with the use of Confront, Stalker is encouraged to avoid unncessary hits and aggro with their Stealth/Placate mechanic and use their intense but controllable spike damage from Assassin Strike to tear down threatening targets without being the focus of those targets. Stalkers are assassins - they remove enemies that pose high threat to the tank (like Malta Sappers, Carnie Mistresses, and Arachnos Fortunatas) from a mob before they can become an issue, then work down the rest of the mob like a Scrapper might. But this isn't the thread to discuss Stalker. If you'd like to, you're welcome to make your own.

Oh, ew. I don't use this term lightly, but that is outright fugly. Crap, and that article was posted barely more than a week ago. Yeah, I'mma just double-check for this component and destroy any instances I find. I don't need any java-integrated software that much that I'm willing to risk it.

Keep in mind that I'm talking purely from a gameplay perspective, @UltraAlt. I realize Sentinels' powerset have precedent in superhero comics, but their ability to contribute to a team in CoH's gameplay is underwhelming and they have no niche in the ecology of archetypes in a team to fill that isn't done absolutely better by other archetypes. Scrappers and Stalkers are both melee DPS archetypes with a defense set, but their defense set is necessary to allow them to get close enough to properly utilize their melee-range damage powers. Even between one another, Scrapper is more consistent and less controlled, while Stalker has greater spike damage at the cost of sustained DPS and can more precisely control when those spikes happen, giving each a unique identity and role to fill in a team. Blasters and Corruptors are both ranged DPS archetypes. Blasters focus on damage dealing at any range and having an inherent that steadily boosts damage and allows them to maintain an offense even when mezzed. Corruptors branch into support skills and having an inherent that makes them better at finishing off weakened enemies than they are at engaging. Again, two different identities even if they fill the same role, and both can be desirable in a team in the right situations. When a Corruptor's extra damage isn't necessary, they can ease the load on the Defender and Controller by buffing, only to switch to damage dealing when the enemy passes the Scourge threshold. What I'm trying to figure out is where the Sentinel fits in a team, what they do and what their identity in doing it is supposed to be, and making them better at it so that they're competitive with other ATs. Even having a similar role to another AT is fine, so long as they have a unique identity in filling it and both their inherent and powersets function well and inuitively for the purpose. Right now, that's not happening.

Emphasis mine. Hard to tell whether you meant hold in the game mechanic sense, or hold in the more general sense of 'prevent from moving' - which would be an immobilize. Since 'hold' has a very specific meaning in this game, I assumed the former. Was I incorrect?