Uncle Shags

I'm not sure this type of exaggeration is helpful when we're talking about trying to find balance. Some may read this and take it at face value. I'm sure you just mean super tough, or immortal vs x and y in z scenario, but when I hear immortal I hear "doesn't die, no matter what." That's what I try to build for, and I know it takes much more than just "minimal slotting." To me, for instance, immortal means pulling, all at once, a map full of 54x8 radios. Endless groups. Arachnos, Carnies, Cot, and Council. I know from experience that's not easy to build and requires a lot more than just minimal slotting. Even then I wouldn't use the word "immortal". Recently I tried to solo the new roaming Awaken group in the beta KW park and it was a...humbling experience... I'm not trying to pick a fight or play semantics, but sometimes words matter.

Holy smokes that's awesome.

It seems like there is a trend in reactions of tanker enthusiasts here? Many of us fit into categories: Hand in the cookie jar: many of us enjoy this game for min/maxing builds, and some have found ways to really maximize tank damage. These folks reactions seem to may be, "OK, you caught me. This was OP. I'll take the hand slap." Absolutely nothing wrong with chasing dps, and good on them for owning it. Traditional tanks: protecting the team as the boulder that baddies get broken on is a time honored tradition, and damage isn't really a priority. Reactions here are mostly, "Oh well. I don't worry about damage." Nothing wrong here either. Middle of the road tanks: might be harder to pin down. Maybe they haven't chased crazy damage or procs because they come at the expense of tankiness. Maybe they can't afford the fancy purple dps builds. Or maybe they just like both damage and toughness. Whatever the reason, the reaction may be, "Wait a minute? I was only doing middle of the road damage, and you're saying that was too much? Not cool, man..." I find myself in this category, and I think this reaction is reasonable. I'm just spitballing here, and I'm certain there are other categories than these three, but I'm thinking this might be helpful, for me at least, to understanding my fellow tanker's reactions. I think it's important that we remember all of our perspectives are valid. I just hope the devs can find a way to do right by all of us.

I'm not sure what you mean. This was the first time you mentioned SOs and +0 and the first time I asked about it. What do I keep asking and what do you keep answering? Nope, no problem! I do this too. Thank you for answering the question of who uses SOs - lowbies. Sorry, I didn't jump to that conclusion myself. I guess it would be some comfort knowing this wouldn't impact leveling. But I'm not sure it wouldn't. My testing was at +0 and the impact was significant. And if you're playing a set that does a lot of cone damage it's going to sting.

I tested live/beta with my fairly low dps SoA. Regen change didn't make a difference.

Good work. Thank you!

It's a false dichotomy to suggest that the only two options here are to embrace tankers in their current state or to embrace the suggested changes as proposed. There's a whole lot of middle ground. Exactly! What does this have to do with anything? Who the hell is only playing with SOs vs +0s?! My main 20 years ago was a Fire/SS tank that was hell on wheels. Want a video for that too? Ha! I just need to "get good"? It didn't take long for your true colors to come out, eh?! This honestly just comes off of as you not being very good at not being condescending, insulting, pompous, dismissive, elitist, cliche. I'd take being decent person over not being good at tanking and building any day! Ha again! You're a riot! I posted live/beta times for 3 different tankers in the focused feedback thread. Think I'm a liar? Do your own testing and prove me wrong. Or not.

I agree with most of what you said. I build tanky for teams and damage is a bonus. Before this I had never done a clear speed test because I didn't care about it. But for some reason I decided to check how much my tanks would be impacted. Maybe because there are times when I do want decent damage. If odds stack up and I recruit a team full of lowbies, for instance. Or if I zig and they zag and I'm stuck on my own. Or there's a wipe and I have to last man it while the team recovers. Or if there's some solo content I want to tackle. Or if I want to see the health bar move when I punch something. So I got on beta and tested. And it feels like crap. And I actually used a stop watch to verify. For me, it's too much. And now I'm stuck with asking why. I can understand your stance, but I'm going down swinging.

Agreed! It very well may be that the recoding of aoe areas directly impacts the proc damage problem and solves the upper end overperformance problem. Why use a hatchet when a scalpel could work?

Yeah, but my experience isn't leading to a 33% nerf of yours. And I don't think your use of the word "elegant" in this scenario fits. Elegance involves minimalism, simplicity, precision, exactness, grace. This is not that. It's a bull in a China shop, dropping multiple changes at once to fix a problem I would argue could be fixed with much more precise adjustments. Bingo. They are also tests basically custom made for tanks with aggro auras that keep everything in melee to die. On a whim, this morning I ran the 0x8 test on my boom boom spits death blaster just to see if I'm taking crazy pills. Nope! First shot without practice I did it in under 3 minutes, which is faster than the top time. But here's the key caveat, except for a few runners. To get 100% clear without taunt auras I have to chase down tons of stragglers, which isn't a problem for tanks. So this is how we decide to balance?! IMO Farms and tests designed by and for gear head min/maxers aren't what game balance should be based on. The OP Tankers are proc bombed niche builds. This is my point. Again, why are they nerfing ALL tank damage when it's not ALL tanks that are a problem? I'm going to take a shot at my own question. How would I nerf tanks? Address individual powers, perhaps like Ground Zero. Change tanker aoe code to reflect the actual area, like they're planning. Stop there. See if that brings the OP proc bombing builds in line. It may be enough. This is a 20 year old game. Swinging the bat this indiscriminately, this hard, at this stage, is ridiculous.

It's statements like this that has me scratching my head. Where is this coming from? Who are you even talking about? It's like there's this monolithic player in the game named 'Tanker' that has taken over the game, making every other choice obsolete. I'm quoting you, but you're not doing anything unique. It seems nearly everyone is doing the same thing - referring to this as an issue of addressing this mythical OP tanker that's terrorizing our neighborhoods, stealing our candy, and ruining the game. I've just been genuinely confused, because it's so disconnected from my own experience. I play this game a LOT, as tanks, and with other tanks, and I'm not seeing what everyone else is talking about. My tanks aren't OP. They're really tanky, yes, but they're damage is crap. And the ones I see in game are either doing okay, getting in the way, or make me want to get back on my tank. But they're not making the rest of the team obsolete. But I've finally got it. I've had a eureka moment! I think I understand. I don't farm. I play PUG mission teams. And this is about farming! Tankers are the best farmers. Tankers are the kings of the farming world and now there's a reaction to it! I finally get it. It all makes sense now. These OP Tankers aren't a thing in non farming content because their damage is a joke compared to a well built dps AT, and a good support team can make even a blaster into a tank. It's just solo farming where you need the ability to survive and do enough damage yourself! So here it is: The devs are making sweeping changes to an entire AT because of farming builds. Every tank I have and run with in the "normal" game is getting nerfed because OP farming builds have pissed people off. How disappointing...

This is the part I take issue with. I think the more accurate statement is, "some tankers are overperforming." By lumping all tankers together as a homogeneous unit it legitimizes a broad sweep damage reduction, rather than changes that target the problems directly.

In case you've missed it, there are changes coming to tankers in the next issue. You can check them out here: Tanker Changes Focused Feedback There are quite a few changes coming, but the big takeaway is that, when you add it all up, it will lead to a significant damage reduction. Please, feel free to copy your tanks to beta, do your own testing, and post the results. I've tested a few of my builds and it seems like time to clear is increased by up to 1.5 times. Or around a 25-33% decrease in damage. This stings for me. Quite a bit. The builds I tested are ones that I've spent a ton of time designing and playing, and obviously I'm invested in them. When I go into beta and see the difference it's pretty depressing. It also seems unfair, because my tanks are already on the low damage side, so I'm having a hard time understanding the justification. But rather than rant, or rage quit, or wallow in pity (although I'm not taking those options off the table, lol) I've decided to appeal to the tanker community for help. In order to stay organized and focused, I'll lay out my argument: 1. There are particular tanker powers and/or combinations of powers that interact with certain game mechanics that may be problematic. Gauntlet aoe, procs, rad/ss, etc. This should probably be addressed. 2. The changes proposed in beta will effect ALL tankers, not just the ones doing big damage. Lower damage tanks aren't a problem, so why is their damage getting cut by a third? 3. The proposed changes will impact low damage tanks more, because of some principle of math someone might help me with. Basically, increasing kill times from 2 minutes to 3 minutes is different than an increase from 6 to 9. The former goes from super fast to still really fast. The latter goes from slow to abysmal. I think these three points are true. But maybe I'm wrong. I'm biased, I'm sure. It's definitely up for discussion. So finally, we get to the point. Big brains in the tanker community, what can be done? Is there a better way? How can the devs make adjustments to high damage tanks without harming the low damage ones at the same time? Also, feasibility and ease of implementation is important, as resources are limited. What say you? How would you nerf tankers in a fair way?

That would be a 40-50% damage nerf.

The author's premise seems to be that the patch doesn't mesh with the speed meta. That conclusion seems to be based on one change: seeds of confusion. They missed the bigger change to control (adaptive recharge) which speeds up control quite a lot, so I hear.