Shin Magmus

YES ESPECIALLY ONI'S RING OF FIRE IN NINJAS. I would appreciate this pass on WAWG for VEATs but Ninjas is still screwed by active anti-synergy where one pet completely ruins your 2 sources of Knock Up and Knock Down; Oni's shitty Ring of Fire immediately increases that boss's ability to deal damage to your pets by 5,000%. If we just got a pass that kept the -KB Magnitude% but eliminated the -KB protection, Ninjas would work correctly overnight. This would also make VEATs way more likely to take this power.

I just want to chime in and add that no fewer than 4 Control sets have at least 1 power that is (or used to be) just a debuff and not a Mez of any kind. Additionally, sets like Ice Control stack -Recharge debuffs to a degree that is completely unmatched by Ice Melee or Ice Blast, and Elec Control is the best sapping set in the game by a mile. Dominators can still debuff with Control sets... a lot. But it is true that Controllers have higher Scales on many of these debuffing powers than Dominators do. It's okay to say that Doms debuff.

One of the first good suggestions I've seen in a while here besides the Immob fight that we can't win. Just as an aside, VG does cause enemies who aren't initially Held to run from it: and a big reason the power works is because Earth Control can both put down Quicksand preemptively to slow enemies in its patches like VG and Earthquake, AND it can just Stone Cages to traditionally lock enemies in the area and make them get subjected to the patches. Quicksand is a "weaker" power than most CCs but in exchange it has half the CD of a power like Ice Slick or Liquid Nitrogen: which means you have the freedom to use it every single fight and synergize with patches that enemies can run out of. For Arsenal Control to work: Sleep Grenade needs to retain movement slowing effects and be at max a 45s CD so we can use it like a ghetto Quicksand to slow enemies in the other patches. Reminder that this -50% in Sleep Grenade is not enough total slow against most enemies to get them to the run speed floor: so Controllers are still going to be locked into picking secondaries with another strong AoE slow to make the set be tolerable.

You know what else works? Using an AoE Stun as an Opener followed by an AoE Immob to prevent scatter: cast the Immob as you are jumping in. It's crazy how well this works on one... two... three... four powersets. Dark Control is a bit different since the Stun is a PbAoE so you usually have to open with Fearsome Stare, and then jump in to use the Stun slotted more for procs than mez. Basically, if the enemies are actually disabled for real, then you don't need a gimmick to get closer. Stunned + Immobed enemies just sit there and take it.

Well you're not the only one having some thoughts like this right now. I can't understand why they'd say things like "power swaps are off the table" when Open Beta testing period just started. Even before they did the release candidate 2 patch notes, they were already adamant that we weren't going to get any meaningful changes. It does feel pointless.

I'm not sure if you know this, but Storm Summoning loves getting paired with Immobs more than any other Controller secondary. Not only does it convert all KBtoKD, which can save you slots in powers like TStorm (although you'll still almost certainly want an IO in Tornado), but it applies Containment damage to most things you're doing while in the Storm DPS mode frenzy. However, a significant weakness of Storm as a set is that it drives enemies to flee via multiple unavoidable Fear effects tacked onto core powers. Enemies fleeing and scattering is bad, and Immobs stop this from happening. Slows just reduced the effect by a % but the enemies are still moving around and making all of your AoEs worse instead of better. I would never pair Storm with a Control set that lacks Immobs: defeats the entire potential of the set. Pylon Test results don't count because Pylons are permanently Immobilized: those just make my point stronger.

I feel pretty safe assuming we aren't going to get any meaningful buffs or changes before this set goes live so I guess we just pack it in and get ready for mediocrity. Good effort everyone. I'll just make a final reiteration of my core criticism: Ice Slick and Arctic Air together just beat Liquid Nitrogen and Smoke Canister cleanly in a very obvious 1:1 comparison... and that's the biggest thing that needs addressing. We're getting "worse Ice Control" and told we have to stack slows to make it work because we aren't allowed to have an AoE Immob... except Ice Control slows movement better, and slows recharge much better, and has an AoE Immob. Theme is the only answer anyone can give as to why someone would willingly play Arse Control in its current state. I wonder if the timeline of players trying the new set then dropping it entirely will be faster than Seismic Blast or Symph Control?

Me also no like cone. Me prefer circle, it remind of wheel. Oog. It's funny because Assault Sets already got a large balance pass on Homecoming but kept the crappy cones that everyone hates and skips, so in a war it's like they need another large balance pass anyways just to address cones.

I am just amazed people are this mad about this change and still asking for it to be scrapped, when it's this inconsequential. I get it, most ATs are a mix of different roles and the mix is even more varied based on specific powersets... but like this is a minor change and small potatoes compared to fixing new powersets and other aspects that affect the game in the upcoming patch. From the beginning I've been in the "1 PA reward lul, I will mostly ignore this" crowd and it's not going to ever affect me as much as gutting my Stalker's performance will for example.

Arsenal Control is worse than "simply bad". Arsenal Control is comparatively worse than the most similar Control Sets like Ice Control: better slow stacking, same Ice Slick, better Confuse power in Arctic Air, has an AoE Immob, wins in every single way except not having a Stun (but it doesn't need it)... but being comparatively worse would be okay if it had any unique niche or unique strength. Arsenal Control is comparatively worse AND also has no niche: pointless set. Earth - Best overall CC and best simultaneous CC across multiple areas Ice - Better Arsenal Control with best movement slows and superbest recharge slows Mind - Sole good sleep-stacking Control set in the game, useful on Doms soloing multiple AVs, also has repositioning Fire - Fundamentally better DPA on most powers than most sets with a strong damage aura, easy to play Plant - Best AoE Confuse and strongest pet/proc-based DPS of all Control sets Dark - 2nd strngest pet/proc-based DPS but has excellent burst proc dmg and stacks the most tohit debuffs, making it very safe Gravity - Best repositioning of any Control set with Wormhole and Singularity, giving it a truly unique niche Elec Control - Only pulsing Sleep in the game and the best sapping set in the game... like... by FAR Symphony - Seems pointless at first but is the best purely ranged overall attacking Control set for both Controllers and Dominators, fake blaster Arsenal - No niche, feel free to pretend you can put an answer here

We won't get anywhere with asking this sadly, since the answer is unflattering (pride). I'll still voice my feedback about how the set would benefit from an AoE Immob, needed one, and how this is because Controllers are a solved equation with a clear optimal gameplay loop. No matter how many more mediocre sets get added, not being able to Immob enemies just means that scatter is inevitable when using something like a typical 90s AoE Stun. Even if enemies scatter slowly, this is mathematically less effective than if they couldn't scatter at all: not *just* for you, but for everyone else on your team. Sets like Arsenal Control are simply going to compare unfavorably to the good Control sets, and people who care about efficiency are going to roll another Fire Control character instead. This set will languish in unpopularity and that is its fate. This was avoidable... but not anymore. One more thing to the pile of "yeah it works I guess but there's no incentive to play it."

Okay, here's my "Flowchart" for making this set work at the moment, just tested with some basic IOs because I didn't spend the time to enhance another lv50 build. The preface is that I'm only interested in making Arsenal/Traps so that's all I'm testing. Base Slows: Sleep Grenade -50% for 15s / no -maxspeed tag Liquid Nitrogen - 90% for 30.5s / yes -maxspeed / only if they remain in the area Caltrops -80% for 45s / yes -maxspeed / only if they remain in the area Total: -220% (292.6% at lv50 with Intuition Radial Alpha) (Temporal Bomb also slows but it would not be used specifically for that, and not up every fight) *This is enough slow to reliably floor the movespeed of most +3 enemies, without enhancing the values at all outside Alpha slot bonuses.* So this means that Sleep Grenade in its current form is just a 1 acc / 5 proc bomb with a largely worthless Sleep effect that will not be active for more than 1s in any of my fights. I open with either Flashbang or Smoke Canister and then instantly follow up with Sleep Grenade. I prefer Flashbang as the opener and can probably get its recharge low enough to use every fight, making Smoke Canister a backup power to CC a 2nd group or do other stuff. Another advantage of Flashbang is that I can stack it with Seeker Drones to semi-reliably inflict over Mag 4 Stun vs groups of Bosses. The exact rotation is below: Flashbang -> Sleep Grenade -> Liquid Nitrogen -> Caltrops -> *start attacking*. When I start attacking on small teams or vs tanky enemies: the priority is to get Acid Mortar out as soon as enemies are slowed enough. On full teams or vs easier enemies, it might not even be worth the cast time after that long opening chain. If the set remains like this, my plan also remains like this. There are 2 current issues for me playing an Arsenal/Traps. The first issue is still the lack of AoE Immobs because my team can knock enemies out of my patches to undo my powers and free enemies from my slows... although I have a single target shitty Web Grenade to restrain a priority target. The second issue is that I've committed to taking 2x 90s "openers" which combo with yet another "opener" so there's a 0% chance I bother taking, or slotting, the AoE Hold "Tear Gas". I don't really like this gameplay loop overall since I can't get reliable Containment after the Stun(s) wears off, and I only see potential by pairing Arsenal Control with Traps or Trick Arrow because they have a ST Immob and another AoE slow, but at least the set is technically workable if you stack slows and your team cooperates.

Okay, so for build 2... The Good News: Tranq Dart being adjusted upward as an attack is good and ironically makes it fall in line with my own separate gadget control prototype: Doms don't care but Controllers need this power for their attack chain. Power Order fix was critical: Hold available at lv1 makes way more sense. Making Smoke Canister bigger and giving it Overpower/Domination values brings it more in line with other actually good Control sets. I think it's okay to buff Tranq Dart one final time and give it the same slow values as Sleep Grenade. All other positive changes just seem like bugfixes really... The Bad News: All of our valid complaints about the weakness of the set not having an AoE Immob are still just as valid, while Sleep Grenade is in some ways even weaker than it was in the previous build. It's clear that the devs reading this thread won't relent on that, so at this point our option seems to be asking to add Immob chances to Sleep Grenade. You can call it Torpor Canister or something and give it chances to Sleep wave chances to Immob. Please, do something to address this now before the set goes live and inevitably gets dropped and never played after a 2 month honeymoon period.

I still can't believe that Meteor never gets any buffs. It has 2 simultaneous weaknesses of hideous KB (slot tax) and the extreme delay (cool for theme but terrible in practice), all to just deal Smashing damage at the exact same level as every other standard nuke, on the same CD. It also lacks their superior secondary effects like Holds, Stuns, or massive debuffs. Meteor is not just the worst nuke in the game, it's a borderline joke power. We could multiply its damage by 1.3x and push that patch tomorrow and it would be completely fine for the game. I just don't know: if the dev team doesn't see any issue with Meteor, I suppose it makes sense how we got the current Arsenal Control.

To be clear: this is about Arsenal Assault's KB but it could apply a bit to Energy Assault as well: in tandem with Arsenal Control. What I'm saying is that the enemies are shooting at you during all this time. Since you didn't start with your Confuse Patch or your Knockdown Patch: and if you started with your Sleep Grenade then that breaks instantly after your first AoE attack. You'd have to flawlessly chain KBs with perfect timing because... as soon as they get up from one: they aren't mezzed. They aren't Confused and they aren't anything. Flashbang and the AoE Hold will work... when they're off CD... but if you successfully Stunned or Held all the enemies already: why would you then need or want to knock them into a Confuse patch? The whole set's... "Flowchart" is just bad if you or anyone on the team has KB.

I'm all for additional sleep buffs too, just to make the powers be better in general... but there's really no reason for this new Gun Control set to be a sleep set. Arsenal Control is the set that is finally going to let people pair something thematically with Traps on a Controller (please don't respond with mechs using Elec Control), finally a real Natural pairing. But Traps is a terrible set for synergizing with Sleeps and doesn't want Sleeps at all: Acid Mortar and Caltrops will just annihilate the effect. Lots of people in this thread have suggested that the set needs an AoE Immob, but I keep trying to explain that it really doesn't need a Sleep to begin with. There are other powers that could replace the Sleeps right now and we'd be in a good enough spot, not great, but good enough. I'd unironically just take Beanbag and Wide Area Web Grenade wholesale in place of the existing T1 and T2. Controllers are still getting shafted without a Mag4 single target CC that procs Containment for them though... which is the real value of the ST Immobilize powers letting them get to work with double dmg on Bosses after 1 click.

Definitely just greenlight this change and push it. You changed a useless skip of a power into one that is actually clever and uses the "timer" and "temporal" in a smart way. Now my Illusion/Traps can achieve perma-PA much easier, which debatably makes this character better than other Illu Controllers for AV/GM fights. Before Traps was the "potentially good" powerset in this use case, but now that it has +Recharge to compete with other Illusion pairings... we have arrived.

I'll add one more response just to make a point that nobody will listen to... You know what I have lv50 and fully incarnated right now: an Illusion/Traps Controller. I'm going to *throw the devs a bone* and respec that character to be specifically an expert GM Hunter and start engaging with the new GM mechanics and rewards. It looks "fun and appealing". So now, in exchange, maybe the *devs can throw us a bone* and remove sleeps from Arsenal Control: and make it into a set that properly synergizes well with Traps. Give me a reason to roll an Asrenal/Traps Controller even though I already have an Illusion/Traps; Make the new set genuinely good and interesting... make it "fun and appealing". Right now, I would honestly never bother playing Arsenal Control: I'm not going to place 2 patch effects that are apparently core powers of the set, then use an AoE sleep that is broken exactly 0.5s later, then watch the enemies walk out of my patches. Even more egregious: with no AoE Immob that reduces Knock*back* to Knock*down*: I lack the tools to prevent my teammates from knocking enemies out of my patches. That final fact really kills the set for me and it will kill the set for others as soon as they start playing it in a team setting.

Also Arcane makes a good point: this set needs a ST stun to stack with Flashbang. I vote we delete a power for Beanbag. Every gun set needs a good Beanbag, and think of the stacking.

K.

I mentioned this too and just want to reiterate that the **common** pairing is important with common being the operative word: most people playing Arse Control WILL be Arse/Traps or Arse/Arse and that's pretty objective fact. So instead of the dev team fighting to keep sleep in the set that will be broken like crazy by those pairings... viciously by Caltrops and Acid Mortar in traps: let's work towards making a set that intentionally synergizes very well with Traps.

I also specifically planned my Respec to drop Smoke Grenade for the new passive. In fact, I mostly had Smoke Grenade for the Max HP Set Bonuses... but it's also insanely strong because it is unresistable debuff. I'll kinda miss it.

Not much to do now but wait, although I guess I can also mention that removing the Sleeps doesn't mean they can't still have a Tranq Dart. Even my idea for a tech control set had one: the power was just much more focused around dealing toxic dmg and applying useful debuffs like -Recharge and -Regen. This set could have a ST Immob, AoE Immob, and a reworked Tranq Dart if they just drop the AoE Sleep and Cloaking Device. I don't actually have a problem with Cloaking Device being in the set, compared to some others here. It's just that it sort-of makes Illusion Control less special because that's the Stealth Control set and it's part of the identity.

I don't think that even a better AoE Sleep power without damage ruining it will make it "fit" in with this DoT-laden set that is meant to be paired with Traps (DoTs) on Controllers and Arse (Ignite DoT) on Doms. There's simply no synergy with Sleep powers with this powerset or the most common pairing powersets. It's okay to go back on the sleep and give it a net shot or a glue bomb as immobs.

I agree with basically all of this. I'm strongly against another currency because this game has a lot of stuff that is daunting for new players despite being an "easy" game and the number of weird currencies is one of them.