Shin Magmus

I just wanted a Natural Origin powerset that had the standard tools to function well in all scenarios, and simultaneously that worked well with Traps. Stacking an assortment of debuffs to go with Traps' grab bag of debuffs would make a character who was a sort of budget "omni debuffer" even though though they didn't explicitly pick Rad Emission or Poison, and would give the character impact when the mezzes are resisted. Good sets like Ice Control and Dark Control have debuffs strong enough to create this impact. Ice Control's -speed and -recharge are legendary, and Dark Control's -tohit is right behind it. I think about these other sets that I have played, and could be playing, when I look at what the devs are offering us with Arse Control. I look, and I see a series of increasingly worse sets that are rooted in a stubborn refusal to alter 3 powers in the set from being: Single Target damaging Sleep, AoE damaging Sleep, and Cloaking Device. I see the stubbornness and total refusal to listen to overwhelming player feedback as the driving force behind why Arsenal Control basically cant, and won't, be fixed. That's how I feel, that's how other people I talk to feel, and that's why I made my original comment that started this thread. *I didn't make this thread.* My comment was moved by an admin to become the start of this thread, partially because it was derailing the conversation about the feedback to the set... and partially because I was damn right about what Arsenal Control needed to become in order to make good Arse/Arse and Arse/Traps characters.

A Confuse hole is pretty common in old armorsets, of which many old enemy groups take powers such as Integration and Unyielding. These powers have Confuse holes on players as well, but both Leadership and VEAT versions of Tactics provide actual Confuse protection for the entire team: which means even now several people simply assume that they have it. It's a funny phenomenon, but it means that Confuse is better than average at CCing lots of enemy groups. Except Confuse doesn't proc Containment... and the Hard Mode difficulty modifiers add Mag 10 Confuse protection to all the enemies...

Well I like the idea of TRI-GUN TRIPLE-BARREL TRIPLE-PET having 3 versions of a good attack that simulate Pyro, Cryo, and Chemical Rounds. If it can rapid fire a barrage of 3 above average attacks then it will do good damage, and it will match Dual Pistols thematically. This assortment of debuffs will also help it stack debuffs with Traps, which is a plus for me because... not to belabor a point... but Arsenal Control should be planned from the ground up around working well with Traps since that's what so many people want to do with it.

As long as one person says "I like the pet, it's good", then we won't see any meaningful changes to it. We're sorta getting Arse'd here.

I think the pet is pigeon-holed now, because if it's tanky and can Taunt, then it de-facto must also not be too strong offensively. This is a classic case of sliding scale balance giving up offense for defense, or else it's just the best pet in both offense and defense. But that's not feedback, that's just why I think they won't buff its damage much. On that note: I highly doubt the set gets any significant changes now (not just the pet) because nobody is listening to feedback in this thread unless it's 100% positive. We're getting Arse Control with both anti-synergy with Traps, and now with this new "Wet" mechanic that makes you want to pair it with Freezing Rain etc. just to have an Immobilize. There's nothing else to be said, it's hopeless.

Just don't respond to Arcane, it's a waste of time that could be used on feedback. I agree with Maxzero that it's "possible" to play a Controller without any reliable Containment, but it makes your character less effective and makes the game less fun. You become even more dead weight on many teams because any strategy you try to use to deal damage (like an Epic AoE attack) hits for literally 50% of the damage it could hit for, if you had picked a different primary. When a team doesn't need your defensive support, the only thing you provide is offensive support: typically via direct damage; Not having Containment active decreases your ability to help by too much.

What if instead of adjusting Arse Control to better facilitate Containment -or- buffing Controller base damage and nerfing the crit multiplier from Containment to fix these system-level changes that you pointed out... we do neither? Let's just push a mediocre set to the non-Blasters and sneak in another Blaster buff.

... and since this set will never get a reliable way to set up Containment, it will also never be good unless its individual powers are as broken as Illusion Control. This means that Arsenal Control will fundamentally suck and be literally always outclassed on Controllers because of the lack of Containment and lack of truly good powers. As for the reason it lacks both of those things? One stubborn person in a position of power.

Phantasm is pain without KBtoKD, it's rough.

For Doms, a Control set not dealing damage is a complete non-issue. However, for Controllers... I'm not sure how much you play them but I play them a lot. It's pretty common for a Controller to take a pool attack as their 3rd single target attack in the chain if they aren't using an Epic attack like Fire Blast: and please note that the vast majority of Control sets only have 2 single target "attacks" as a standard. So a Controller who wants an attack chain will just take Arcane Bolt at lv4, or maybe lv6, and then you have your 3 attacks; in Arsenal Control this would look like Cryo -> Tranq -> Arcane. As for dealing damage beyond that, you'd be able to slot 4 damage procs into Flash Bang (or 5 if you also use the ATO proc and cut back on Mez slotting), and can also deal moderate AoE dmg during some fights with Tear Gas Canister but not every fight. Those both come way before lv35, with the pet at lv26 as the last main source of damage. This is all very standard for Controllers by the way. The ability for them to deal more damage hardly ever comes from their primaries, and instead comes from their secondary and epics. So if I make an Arsenal / Traps Controller I'll probably take Toxic Dart instead for theme, try to fit in Corrosive Vial as well for the procs it can slot, and add in good ole Caltrops as my AoE damage. I can have all of that before lv35 as well.

Yeah but a system-level change like that would probably only be accomplished via manually editing every Sleep power 1 at a time, because of how this game is coded.

Fixed Arsenal Control By: Shin_Rekkoha (Shin_Magmus) *The powerset is now given an identity and a niche: not just having several ground-targetted patch powers, but being the best (and only) Control set at stacking -dmg debuffs.* *Power naming consistency pass conducted: all power names which contain "Canister" are ground-targetted and can be used preemtively.* *Power order adjusted.* T1 - Tranquilizer Round Ranged, Dmg(Toxic), Foe Sleep, -dmg/-rech *Add Debuff Effects Above average DPA attack for a Controller, fills the attack chain position usually occupied by an ST Immobilize, stacks additional -dmg effects for when Sleep fails. T2 - Cryo Freeze Ray Ranged, Dmg(Cold), Foe Hold, -speed/-rech *Add Debuff effects / Power given correct parity with Block of Ice* Standard Single Target Hold, no arbitrary weaknesses. T3 - Liquid Nitrogen Ranged, Targeted Enemy AoE, Foe Immobilize/-Fly/-KB%/-KU%, strong -speed/-rech, *Changed targeting method, add Slow Debuff effects, removed damage, CD reduced to 8s, changed core power, Wet status completely removed from the game* Derivative version of Chillblain, deals no damage and can't slot damage IO sets but applies a more powerful movement slow in exchange, effect even if the Immobilize fails. Since this power deals no damage, it also does not break Sleep, allowing it to be used to set up Containment without waking up foes. T4 - Sophorific Canister Ranged, Ground Targeted Location, Foe Pulsing Sleep, -dmg/-rech *Add Debuff effects, changed targeting method, damage removed* A more usable Sleep Grenade that can be placed preemptively without an enemy target, stacks additional -dmg effects for when Sleep fails. T5 - Cloaking Device Self, Toggle Stealth, +Def(All) *No changes* Power must have retain parity with Superior Invisibility to be justified, people who don't want it can skip it or just mule a LotG 7.5%. T6 - Flash Bang Grenade Ranged, Targeted Enemy AoE, Minor Dmg(Smashing), Foe Stun/-ToHit *Damage added* A standard 90s CD AoE Stun is a default Opener for most Control sets and a fine power, given minor Smashing damage because getting Flash-Banged hurts. T7 - Smoke Canister Ranged, Ground Targeted Location, Foe Pulsing -Perception/-ToHit, Foe Confuse on dmg *Debuff effects increased, Added correct 100% consistent Domination values* The idea of this power is fine as long as we also have an AoE Immobilize that prevents KB. 2 different Openers both on 90s CDs is unique for a Control set, as long as they're both good powers individually. T8 - Tear Gas Canister Ranged, Ground Targeted Location, Moderate DoT(Toxic), Foe Pulsing Hold, -dmg *Changed targeting method, changed core power, now a clone of Volcanic Gasses with adjusted numbers, retain 240s CD* Tear Gas Canister has been given a new identity to be a strong AoE attack that deals significant Toxic Damage over time and stacks additional -dmg, with a small chance to periodically Hold them. Directly compared against Volcanic Gasses: this power will have more DPS and a debuff, but significantly lower Hold frequency/duration. T9 - Tri-Cannon *No changes* The pet works fine and fits the theme well enough. I would be interested to hear the opinions of others in this thread on this set instead of the Arsenal Control that we're getting.

Weird that useful feedback about Arsenal Assault not having a source of "Wet" for Arsenal Control would get deleted. That seems like a pretty important topic to discuss seeing as how Arse/Arse Dom is a thematic and logical pairing. Guess I'll just post it again so everyone knows.

It's a shame that useful feedback about other remaining issues with Arse Control has almost entirely stopped, and now we'll just have pages of discussion about "Wet". It's like the Powers Team threw down a smoke bomb as a distraction. My feedback on version 3 of Arse Control is that it feels actively antagonistic to the playerbase how this set looks now, and how its new combo mechanic is locked out on people playing Arse/Arse Doms and Arse/Traps (and also Arse/TA) Controllers. The whole point of getting a Natural Origin Control set was for thematic pairings like this. Instead of working to make Arse Control be a genuinely good and fun set that works in these obvious, intuitive, statistically more popular pairings, the Powers Team added overcomplicated gimmicks to make weird pairings like Arse/Storm the "good ones". This set is a failure: it is not worth playing.

Yes! Because there's no winning now. Either that is done so everyone can know which powers applies Wet, despite the issues you just pointed out, -or- we're back to square 1 with this bizarre effect that only works with Gun Control. Remember, they're adding Wet but only for Gun Control which has 2 total powers that use Ice. Wet has no synergy with any other Ice powerset. Wet has no synergy with any Electrical powerset. Wet has no logical reason to even exist. It was added just for Gun Control, just so someone didn't have to convert a power people didn't like into Wide Area Web Grenade. (Wet should boost Elec dmg and Cold dmg but reduce Fire dmg, and all sorts of other things. That's how a real Wet status works in other RPGs with one. This isn't the same, it's just... arbitrary.)

Hey, good find. I had a feeling that Mako Mastery powers might often all apply "wet" but wasn't going to go through the tedium of testing them all because of the principle of that work being offloaded onto us. Waterspout is a good power in general though, and certainly it could and would make sense in **gameplay** for a build with Arse Control. It's a bit unfortunate that it makes no sense in **aesthetics or theme** for my Natural Origin Gun/Traps character to conjure a sentient Waterspout though...

There's an explanation, and I can type it, but it's just so upsetting to put into words. The explanation is: "We realize 80% of the feedback is about this set lacking Immobilizes but we stubbornly refuse to relent and remove either the T1 ST Sleep or T3 AoE Sleep. and we already went on record saying that we wouldn't swap any powers. So the only way you guys are getting the Immobilize that you asked for is if we shoehorn it into another power instead. However, we can't make the Immobilize traditional or *too good* because we're adding it to other powers that we feel are already *complete*, so we must add a weaker Immobilize in the most convoluted way possible to both appease you all but not look as if we relented, or changed our minds." If Liquid Nitrogen also Immob'd reliably: it would just be objectively better than Ice Slick. I understand why developers would be wary of making such changes and why they don't want any individual power to be that strong. The issue is the audacity to add a heretofore uniquely overcomplicated mechanic (cross-powerset flags for extra effects like Time's Delayed/Debuffs) to facilitate that Immobilize, and then not explain any details of that mechanic at all to the players, is honestly indefensible. If someone would have at least added a small statement of intent on why they felt the need to put the Immobilize there, and tie it to this "Wet" flag, then at least we would have that information. As it stands, we have no information, only pages of stubborn refusal.

I'll go ahead and add it to the proper thread, but the idea that we have to guess what a "wet" target is and what powers have the "wet" flag, instead of a list being provided in these notes alongside that text: is incredibly badwrong; it's badong. It's very badong that you have done this.

It looks like they did add a conditional Immobilize proc to Liquid Nitrogen as well but I'm not able to test it right now. If there's patch notes out for this build: I can't find them. It's Immobilize "If target is Wet", and my only assumption is that Cryo Freeze Ray makes the target Wet.

Um... I just decided to check the info after the test server updated and... was this intentional? It will be a bit hard to test if this is what's happening, but it looks like the pulsing Overpower Effect on Sleep Grenade is actually the one from Smoke Canister? Even if it's only a text error, that should probably be fixed.

That's an oof. Yeah I have to agree that this needs to be explained better very early on to new players, because DFB is a Trial and they're likely to get roped into that before they even know what a TF is. Some sort of real explanation about Missions, Story Arcs, TFs/SFs, and Trials, has to be included sooner rather than later.

The issue is that PB/WS damage scales literally change when you shapeshift, so they DO have good ranged damage but only while in Nova form. Both PB/WS have innate offensive and defensive buffs that they can activate, then swap to Nova and retain for a degree of time: during which you unload a pretty good Targeted AoE and objectively the best Cone in any "blast" set: Nova Emanation. But people who want to play human-only PB/WS have awful ranged damage. It's really hard to reflect that dynamic on the stat sliders. I think the NPE tweaks should make a concentrated effort to steer new players away from EATs due to their complexity and the ease of building them so wrong that they suck.

It's another targeted nerf at me because my Fire/FF Controller slaps and deals good damage despite the AT 😞. Gotta bring that power level down a little.

MM weaknesses are myriad and range from fundamental weaknesses that basically cannot be fixed (enemy pathing on stairs, in caves) to actually stupid unfair bullshit that should be fixed (pets are destroyed by KB and can't slot an IO to prevent this, forcing MMs to rely on Clarion for KB protection). MMs are on the struggle bus. But Defenders don't struggle at all: they're a close sidegrade from Corrs in almost every situation and Corrs are the meta in Hard Mode. Defenders are really close to being the most meta AT and a few overzealous numbers tweaks would make them monsters.

We can't get power swaps or Immobs anymore, but adding slows or some sort of thematic poison debuffs to existing powers might still get done... I hope? At the very least Tranq Dart and Cryo Freeze Ray would benefit from some slow effects in tandem with Sleep Grenade's. Cryo Freeze Ray is in some ways simply inferior to Block of Ice: and that's not good. Give the ST Hold that deals Cold damage parity with the other ST Hold that deals Cold damage.