Shin Magmus

Yes! Because there's no winning now. Either that is done so everyone can know which powers applies Wet, despite the issues you just pointed out, -or- we're back to square 1 with this bizarre effect that only works with Gun Control. Remember, they're adding Wet but only for Gun Control which has 2 total powers that use Ice. Wet has no synergy with any other Ice powerset. Wet has no synergy with any Electrical powerset. Wet has no logical reason to even exist. It was added just for Gun Control, just so someone didn't have to convert a power people didn't like into Wide Area Web Grenade. (Wet should boost Elec dmg and Cold dmg but reduce Fire dmg, and all sorts of other things. That's how a real Wet status works in other RPGs with one. This isn't the same, it's just... arbitrary.)

Hey, good find. I had a feeling that Mako Mastery powers might often all apply "wet" but wasn't going to go through the tedium of testing them all because of the principle of that work being offloaded onto us. Waterspout is a good power in general though, and certainly it could and would make sense in **gameplay** for a build with Arse Control. It's a bit unfortunate that it makes no sense in **aesthetics or theme** for my Natural Origin Gun/Traps character to conjure a sentient Waterspout though...

There's an explanation, and I can type it, but it's just so upsetting to put into words. The explanation is: "We realize 80% of the feedback is about this set lacking Immobilizes but we stubbornly refuse to relent and remove either the T1 ST Sleep or T3 AoE Sleep. and we already went on record saying that we wouldn't swap any powers. So the only way you guys are getting the Immobilize that you asked for is if we shoehorn it into another power instead. However, we can't make the Immobilize traditional or *too good* because we're adding it to other powers that we feel are already *complete*, so we must add a weaker Immobilize in the most convoluted way possible to both appease you all but not look as if we relented, or changed our minds." If Liquid Nitrogen also Immob'd reliably: it would just be objectively better than Ice Slick. I understand why developers would be wary of making such changes and why they don't want any individual power to be that strong. The issue is the audacity to add a heretofore uniquely overcomplicated mechanic (cross-powerset flags for extra effects like Time's Delayed/Debuffs) to facilitate that Immobilize, and then not explain any details of that mechanic at all to the players, is honestly indefensible. If someone would have at least added a small statement of intent on why they felt the need to put the Immobilize there, and tie it to this "Wet" flag, then at least we would have that information. As it stands, we have no information, only pages of stubborn refusal.

I'll go ahead and add it to the proper thread, but the idea that we have to guess what a "wet" target is and what powers have the "wet" flag, instead of a list being provided in these notes alongside that text: is incredibly badwrong; it's badong. It's very badong that you have done this.

It looks like they did add a conditional Immobilize proc to Liquid Nitrogen as well but I'm not able to test it right now. If there's patch notes out for this build: I can't find them. It's Immobilize "If target is Wet", and my only assumption is that Cryo Freeze Ray makes the target Wet.

Um... I just decided to check the info after the test server updated and... was this intentional? It will be a bit hard to test if this is what's happening, but it looks like the pulsing Overpower Effect on Sleep Grenade is actually the one from Smoke Canister? Even if it's only a text error, that should probably be fixed.

That's an oof. Yeah I have to agree that this needs to be explained better very early on to new players, because DFB is a Trial and they're likely to get roped into that before they even know what a TF is. Some sort of real explanation about Missions, Story Arcs, TFs/SFs, and Trials, has to be included sooner rather than later.

The issue is that PB/WS damage scales literally change when you shapeshift, so they DO have good ranged damage but only while in Nova form. Both PB/WS have innate offensive and defensive buffs that they can activate, then swap to Nova and retain for a degree of time: during which you unload a pretty good Targeted AoE and objectively the best Cone in any "blast" set: Nova Emanation. But people who want to play human-only PB/WS have awful ranged damage. It's really hard to reflect that dynamic on the stat sliders. I think the NPE tweaks should make a concentrated effort to steer new players away from EATs due to their complexity and the ease of building them so wrong that they suck.

It's another targeted nerf at me because my Fire/FF Controller slaps and deals good damage despite the AT 😞. Gotta bring that power level down a little.

MM weaknesses are myriad and range from fundamental weaknesses that basically cannot be fixed (enemy pathing on stairs, in caves) to actually stupid unfair bullshit that should be fixed (pets are destroyed by KB and can't slot an IO to prevent this, forcing MMs to rely on Clarion for KB protection). MMs are on the struggle bus. But Defenders don't struggle at all: they're a close sidegrade from Corrs in almost every situation and Corrs are the meta in Hard Mode. Defenders are really close to being the most meta AT and a few overzealous numbers tweaks would make them monsters.

We can't get power swaps or Immobs anymore, but adding slows or some sort of thematic poison debuffs to existing powers might still get done... I hope? At the very least Tranq Dart and Cryo Freeze Ray would benefit from some slow effects in tandem with Sleep Grenade's. Cryo Freeze Ray is in some ways simply inferior to Block of Ice: and that's not good. Give the ST Hold that deals Cold damage parity with the other ST Hold that deals Cold damage.

YES ESPECIALLY ONI'S RING OF FIRE IN NINJAS. I would appreciate this pass on WAWG for VEATs but Ninjas is still screwed by active anti-synergy where one pet completely ruins your 2 sources of Knock Up and Knock Down; Oni's shitty Ring of Fire immediately increases that boss's ability to deal damage to your pets by 5,000%. If we just got a pass that kept the -KB Magnitude% but eliminated the -KB protection, Ninjas would work correctly overnight. This would also make VEATs way more likely to take this power.

I just want to chime in and add that no fewer than 4 Control sets have at least 1 power that is (or used to be) just a debuff and not a Mez of any kind. Additionally, sets like Ice Control stack -Recharge debuffs to a degree that is completely unmatched by Ice Melee or Ice Blast, and Elec Control is the best sapping set in the game by a mile. Dominators can still debuff with Control sets... a lot. But it is true that Controllers have higher Scales on many of these debuffing powers than Dominators do. It's okay to say that Doms debuff.

One of the first good suggestions I've seen in a while here besides the Immob fight that we can't win. Just as an aside, VG does cause enemies who aren't initially Held to run from it: and a big reason the power works is because Earth Control can both put down Quicksand preemptively to slow enemies in its patches like VG and Earthquake, AND it can just Stone Cages to traditionally lock enemies in the area and make them get subjected to the patches. Quicksand is a "weaker" power than most CCs but in exchange it has half the CD of a power like Ice Slick or Liquid Nitrogen: which means you have the freedom to use it every single fight and synergize with patches that enemies can run out of. For Arsenal Control to work: Sleep Grenade needs to retain movement slowing effects and be at max a 45s CD so we can use it like a ghetto Quicksand to slow enemies in the other patches. Reminder that this -50% in Sleep Grenade is not enough total slow against most enemies to get them to the run speed floor: so Controllers are still going to be locked into picking secondaries with another strong AoE slow to make the set be tolerable.

You know what else works? Using an AoE Stun as an Opener followed by an AoE Immob to prevent scatter: cast the Immob as you are jumping in. It's crazy how well this works on one... two... three... four powersets. Dark Control is a bit different since the Stun is a PbAoE so you usually have to open with Fearsome Stare, and then jump in to use the Stun slotted more for procs than mez. Basically, if the enemies are actually disabled for real, then you don't need a gimmick to get closer. Stunned + Immobed enemies just sit there and take it.

Well you're not the only one having some thoughts like this right now. I can't understand why they'd say things like "power swaps are off the table" when Open Beta testing period just started. Even before they did the release candidate 2 patch notes, they were already adamant that we weren't going to get any meaningful changes. It does feel pointless.

I'm not sure if you know this, but Storm Summoning loves getting paired with Immobs more than any other Controller secondary. Not only does it convert all KBtoKD, which can save you slots in powers like TStorm (although you'll still almost certainly want an IO in Tornado), but it applies Containment damage to most things you're doing while in the Storm DPS mode frenzy. However, a significant weakness of Storm as a set is that it drives enemies to flee via multiple unavoidable Fear effects tacked onto core powers. Enemies fleeing and scattering is bad, and Immobs stop this from happening. Slows just reduced the effect by a % but the enemies are still moving around and making all of your AoEs worse instead of better. I would never pair Storm with a Control set that lacks Immobs: defeats the entire potential of the set. Pylon Test results don't count because Pylons are permanently Immobilized: those just make my point stronger.

I feel pretty safe assuming we aren't going to get any meaningful buffs or changes before this set goes live so I guess we just pack it in and get ready for mediocrity. Good effort everyone. I'll just make a final reiteration of my core criticism: Ice Slick and Arctic Air together just beat Liquid Nitrogen and Smoke Canister cleanly in a very obvious 1:1 comparison... and that's the biggest thing that needs addressing. We're getting "worse Ice Control" and told we have to stack slows to make it work because we aren't allowed to have an AoE Immob... except Ice Control slows movement better, and slows recharge much better, and has an AoE Immob. Theme is the only answer anyone can give as to why someone would willingly play Arse Control in its current state. I wonder if the timeline of players trying the new set then dropping it entirely will be faster than Seismic Blast or Symph Control?

Me also no like cone. Me prefer circle, it remind of wheel. Oog. It's funny because Assault Sets already got a large balance pass on Homecoming but kept the crappy cones that everyone hates and skips, so in a war it's like they need another large balance pass anyways just to address cones.

I am just amazed people are this mad about this change and still asking for it to be scrapped, when it's this inconsequential. I get it, most ATs are a mix of different roles and the mix is even more varied based on specific powersets... but like this is a minor change and small potatoes compared to fixing new powersets and other aspects that affect the game in the upcoming patch. From the beginning I've been in the "1 PA reward lul, I will mostly ignore this" crowd and it's not going to ever affect me as much as gutting my Stalker's performance will for example.

Arsenal Control is worse than "simply bad". Arsenal Control is comparatively worse than the most similar Control Sets like Ice Control: better slow stacking, same Ice Slick, better Confuse power in Arctic Air, has an AoE Immob, wins in every single way except not having a Stun (but it doesn't need it)... but being comparatively worse would be okay if it had any unique niche or unique strength. Arsenal Control is comparatively worse AND also has no niche: pointless set. Earth - Best overall CC and best simultaneous CC across multiple areas Ice - Better Arsenal Control with best movement slows and superbest recharge slows Mind - Sole good sleep-stacking Control set in the game, useful on Doms soloing multiple AVs, also has repositioning Fire - Fundamentally better DPA on most powers than most sets with a strong damage aura, easy to play Plant - Best AoE Confuse and strongest pet/proc-based DPS of all Control sets Dark - 2nd strngest pet/proc-based DPS but has excellent burst proc dmg and stacks the most tohit debuffs, making it very safe Gravity - Best repositioning of any Control set with Wormhole and Singularity, giving it a truly unique niche Elec Control - Only pulsing Sleep in the game and the best sapping set in the game... like... by FAR Symphony - Seems pointless at first but is the best purely ranged overall attacking Control set for both Controllers and Dominators, fake blaster Arsenal - No niche, feel free to pretend you can put an answer here

We won't get anywhere with asking this sadly, since the answer is unflattering (pride). I'll still voice my feedback about how the set would benefit from an AoE Immob, needed one, and how this is because Controllers are a solved equation with a clear optimal gameplay loop. No matter how many more mediocre sets get added, not being able to Immob enemies just means that scatter is inevitable when using something like a typical 90s AoE Stun. Even if enemies scatter slowly, this is mathematically less effective than if they couldn't scatter at all: not *just* for you, but for everyone else on your team. Sets like Arsenal Control are simply going to compare unfavorably to the good Control sets, and people who care about efficiency are going to roll another Fire Control character instead. This set will languish in unpopularity and that is its fate. This was avoidable... but not anymore. One more thing to the pile of "yeah it works I guess but there's no incentive to play it."

Okay, here's my "Flowchart" for making this set work at the moment, just tested with some basic IOs because I didn't spend the time to enhance another lv50 build. The preface is that I'm only interested in making Arsenal/Traps so that's all I'm testing. Base Slows: Sleep Grenade -50% for 15s / no -maxspeed tag Liquid Nitrogen - 90% for 30.5s / yes -maxspeed / only if they remain in the area Caltrops -80% for 45s / yes -maxspeed / only if they remain in the area Total: -220% (292.6% at lv50 with Intuition Radial Alpha) (Temporal Bomb also slows but it would not be used specifically for that, and not up every fight) *This is enough slow to reliably floor the movespeed of most +3 enemies, without enhancing the values at all outside Alpha slot bonuses.* So this means that Sleep Grenade in its current form is just a 1 acc / 5 proc bomb with a largely worthless Sleep effect that will not be active for more than 1s in any of my fights. I open with either Flashbang or Smoke Canister and then instantly follow up with Sleep Grenade. I prefer Flashbang as the opener and can probably get its recharge low enough to use every fight, making Smoke Canister a backup power to CC a 2nd group or do other stuff. Another advantage of Flashbang is that I can stack it with Seeker Drones to semi-reliably inflict over Mag 4 Stun vs groups of Bosses. The exact rotation is below: Flashbang -> Sleep Grenade -> Liquid Nitrogen -> Caltrops -> *start attacking*. When I start attacking on small teams or vs tanky enemies: the priority is to get Acid Mortar out as soon as enemies are slowed enough. On full teams or vs easier enemies, it might not even be worth the cast time after that long opening chain. If the set remains like this, my plan also remains like this. There are 2 current issues for me playing an Arsenal/Traps. The first issue is still the lack of AoE Immobs because my team can knock enemies out of my patches to undo my powers and free enemies from my slows... although I have a single target shitty Web Grenade to restrain a priority target. The second issue is that I've committed to taking 2x 90s "openers" which combo with yet another "opener" so there's a 0% chance I bother taking, or slotting, the AoE Hold "Tear Gas". I don't really like this gameplay loop overall since I can't get reliable Containment after the Stun(s) wears off, and I only see potential by pairing Arsenal Control with Traps or Trick Arrow because they have a ST Immob and another AoE slow, but at least the set is technically workable if you stack slows and your team cooperates.

Okay, so for build 2... The Good News: Tranq Dart being adjusted upward as an attack is good and ironically makes it fall in line with my own separate gadget control prototype: Doms don't care but Controllers need this power for their attack chain. Power Order fix was critical: Hold available at lv1 makes way more sense. Making Smoke Canister bigger and giving it Overpower/Domination values brings it more in line with other actually good Control sets. I think it's okay to buff Tranq Dart one final time and give it the same slow values as Sleep Grenade. All other positive changes just seem like bugfixes really... The Bad News: All of our valid complaints about the weakness of the set not having an AoE Immob are still just as valid, while Sleep Grenade is in some ways even weaker than it was in the previous build. It's clear that the devs reading this thread won't relent on that, so at this point our option seems to be asking to add Immob chances to Sleep Grenade. You can call it Torpor Canister or something and give it chances to Sleep wave chances to Immob. Please, do something to address this now before the set goes live and inevitably gets dropped and never played after a 2 month honeymoon period.

I still can't believe that Meteor never gets any buffs. It has 2 simultaneous weaknesses of hideous KB (slot tax) and the extreme delay (cool for theme but terrible in practice), all to just deal Smashing damage at the exact same level as every other standard nuke, on the same CD. It also lacks their superior secondary effects like Holds, Stuns, or massive debuffs. Meteor is not just the worst nuke in the game, it's a borderline joke power. We could multiply its damage by 1.3x and push that patch tomorrow and it would be completely fine for the game. I just don't know: if the dev team doesn't see any issue with Meteor, I suppose it makes sense how we got the current Arsenal Control.