Shin Magmus

Arsenal Control is worse than "simply bad". Arsenal Control is comparatively worse than the most similar Control Sets like Ice Control: better slow stacking, same Ice Slick, better Confuse power in Arctic Air, has an AoE Immob, wins in every single way except not having a Stun (but it doesn't need it)... but being comparatively worse would be okay if it had any unique niche or unique strength. Arsenal Control is comparatively worse AND also has no niche: pointless set. Earth - Best overall CC and best simultaneous CC across multiple areas Ice - Better Arsenal Control with best movement slows and superbest recharge slows Mind - Sole good sleep-stacking Control set in the game, useful on Doms soloing multiple AVs, also has repositioning Fire - Fundamentally better DPA on most powers than most sets with a strong damage aura, easy to play Plant - Best AoE Confuse and strongest pet/proc-based DPS of all Control sets Dark - 2nd strngest pet/proc-based DPS but has excellent burst proc dmg and stacks the most tohit debuffs, making it very safe Gravity - Best repositioning of any Control set with Wormhole and Singularity, giving it a truly unique niche Elec Control - Only pulsing Sleep in the game and the best sapping set in the game... like... by FAR Symphony - Seems pointless at first but is the best purely ranged overall attacking Control set for both Controllers and Dominators, fake blaster Arsenal - No niche, feel free to pretend you can put an answer here

We won't get anywhere with asking this sadly, since the answer is unflattering (pride). I'll still voice my feedback about how the set would benefit from an AoE Immob, needed one, and how this is because Controllers are a solved equation with a clear optimal gameplay loop. No matter how many more mediocre sets get added, not being able to Immob enemies just means that scatter is inevitable when using something like a typical 90s AoE Stun. Even if enemies scatter slowly, this is mathematically less effective than if they couldn't scatter at all: not *just* for you, but for everyone else on your team. Sets like Arsenal Control are simply going to compare unfavorably to the good Control sets, and people who care about efficiency are going to roll another Fire Control character instead. This set will languish in unpopularity and that is its fate. This was avoidable... but not anymore. One more thing to the pile of "yeah it works I guess but there's no incentive to play it."

Okay, here's my "Flowchart" for making this set work at the moment, just tested with some basic IOs because I didn't spend the time to enhance another lv50 build. The preface is that I'm only interested in making Arsenal/Traps so that's all I'm testing. Base Slows: Sleep Grenade -50% for 15s / no -maxspeed tag Liquid Nitrogen - 90% for 30.5s / yes -maxspeed / only if they remain in the area Caltrops -80% for 45s / yes -maxspeed / only if they remain in the area Total: -220% (292.6% at lv50 with Intuition Radial Alpha) (Temporal Bomb also slows but it would not be used specifically for that, and not up every fight) *This is enough slow to reliably floor the movespeed of most +3 enemies, without enhancing the values at all outside Alpha slot bonuses.* So this means that Sleep Grenade in its current form is just a 1 acc / 5 proc bomb with a largely worthless Sleep effect that will not be active for more than 1s in any of my fights. I open with either Flashbang or Smoke Canister and then instantly follow up with Sleep Grenade. I prefer Flashbang as the opener and can probably get its recharge low enough to use every fight, making Smoke Canister a backup power to CC a 2nd group or do other stuff. Another advantage of Flashbang is that I can stack it with Seeker Drones to semi-reliably inflict over Mag 4 Stun vs groups of Bosses. The exact rotation is below: Flashbang -> Sleep Grenade -> Liquid Nitrogen -> Caltrops -> *start attacking*. When I start attacking on small teams or vs tanky enemies: the priority is to get Acid Mortar out as soon as enemies are slowed enough. On full teams or vs easier enemies, it might not even be worth the cast time after that long opening chain. If the set remains like this, my plan also remains like this. There are 2 current issues for me playing an Arsenal/Traps. The first issue is still the lack of AoE Immobs because my team can knock enemies out of my patches to undo my powers and free enemies from my slows... although I have a single target shitty Web Grenade to restrain a priority target. The second issue is that I've committed to taking 2x 90s "openers" which combo with yet another "opener" so there's a 0% chance I bother taking, or slotting, the AoE Hold "Tear Gas". I don't really like this gameplay loop overall since I can't get reliable Containment after the Stun(s) wears off, and I only see potential by pairing Arsenal Control with Traps or Trick Arrow because they have a ST Immob and another AoE slow, but at least the set is technically workable if you stack slows and your team cooperates.

Okay, so for build 2... The Good News: Tranq Dart being adjusted upward as an attack is good and ironically makes it fall in line with my own separate gadget control prototype: Doms don't care but Controllers need this power for their attack chain. Power Order fix was critical: Hold available at lv1 makes way more sense. Making Smoke Canister bigger and giving it Overpower/Domination values brings it more in line with other actually good Control sets. I think it's okay to buff Tranq Dart one final time and give it the same slow values as Sleep Grenade. All other positive changes just seem like bugfixes really... The Bad News: All of our valid complaints about the weakness of the set not having an AoE Immob are still just as valid, while Sleep Grenade is in some ways even weaker than it was in the previous build. It's clear that the devs reading this thread won't relent on that, so at this point our option seems to be asking to add Immob chances to Sleep Grenade. You can call it Torpor Canister or something and give it chances to Sleep wave chances to Immob. Please, do something to address this now before the set goes live and inevitably gets dropped and never played after a 2 month honeymoon period.

I still can't believe that Meteor never gets any buffs. It has 2 simultaneous weaknesses of hideous KB (slot tax) and the extreme delay (cool for theme but terrible in practice), all to just deal Smashing damage at the exact same level as every other standard nuke, on the same CD. It also lacks their superior secondary effects like Holds, Stuns, or massive debuffs. Meteor is not just the worst nuke in the game, it's a borderline joke power. We could multiply its damage by 1.3x and push that patch tomorrow and it would be completely fine for the game. I just don't know: if the dev team doesn't see any issue with Meteor, I suppose it makes sense how we got the current Arsenal Control.

To be clear: this is about Arsenal Assault's KB but it could apply a bit to Energy Assault as well: in tandem with Arsenal Control. What I'm saying is that the enemies are shooting at you during all this time. Since you didn't start with your Confuse Patch or your Knockdown Patch: and if you started with your Sleep Grenade then that breaks instantly after your first AoE attack. You'd have to flawlessly chain KBs with perfect timing because... as soon as they get up from one: they aren't mezzed. They aren't Confused and they aren't anything. Flashbang and the AoE Hold will work... when they're off CD... but if you successfully Stunned or Held all the enemies already: why would you then need or want to knock them into a Confuse patch? The whole set's... "Flowchart" is just bad if you or anyone on the team has KB.

I'm all for additional sleep buffs too, just to make the powers be better in general... but there's really no reason for this new Gun Control set to be a sleep set. Arsenal Control is the set that is finally going to let people pair something thematically with Traps on a Controller (please don't respond with mechs using Elec Control), finally a real Natural pairing. But Traps is a terrible set for synergizing with Sleeps and doesn't want Sleeps at all: Acid Mortar and Caltrops will just annihilate the effect. Lots of people in this thread have suggested that the set needs an AoE Immob, but I keep trying to explain that it really doesn't need a Sleep to begin with. There are other powers that could replace the Sleeps right now and we'd be in a good enough spot, not great, but good enough. I'd unironically just take Beanbag and Wide Area Web Grenade wholesale in place of the existing T1 and T2. Controllers are still getting shafted without a Mag4 single target CC that procs Containment for them though... which is the real value of the ST Immobilize powers letting them get to work with double dmg on Bosses after 1 click.

Definitely just greenlight this change and push it. You changed a useless skip of a power into one that is actually clever and uses the "timer" and "temporal" in a smart way. Now my Illusion/Traps can achieve perma-PA much easier, which debatably makes this character better than other Illu Controllers for AV/GM fights. Before Traps was the "potentially good" powerset in this use case, but now that it has +Recharge to compete with other Illusion pairings... we have arrived.

I'll add one more response just to make a point that nobody will listen to... You know what I have lv50 and fully incarnated right now: an Illusion/Traps Controller. I'm going to *throw the devs a bone* and respec that character to be specifically an expert GM Hunter and start engaging with the new GM mechanics and rewards. It looks "fun and appealing". So now, in exchange, maybe the *devs can throw us a bone* and remove sleeps from Arsenal Control: and make it into a set that properly synergizes well with Traps. Give me a reason to roll an Asrenal/Traps Controller even though I already have an Illusion/Traps; Make the new set genuinely good and interesting... make it "fun and appealing". Right now, I would honestly never bother playing Arsenal Control: I'm not going to place 2 patch effects that are apparently core powers of the set, then use an AoE sleep that is broken exactly 0.5s later, then watch the enemies walk out of my patches. Even more egregious: with no AoE Immob that reduces Knock*back* to Knock*down*: I lack the tools to prevent my teammates from knocking enemies out of my patches. That final fact really kills the set for me and it will kill the set for others as soon as they start playing it in a team setting.

Also Arcane makes a good point: this set needs a ST stun to stack with Flashbang. I vote we delete a power for Beanbag. Every gun set needs a good Beanbag, and think of the stacking.

K.

I mentioned this too and just want to reiterate that the **common** pairing is important with common being the operative word: most people playing Arse Control WILL be Arse/Traps or Arse/Arse and that's pretty objective fact. So instead of the dev team fighting to keep sleep in the set that will be broken like crazy by those pairings... viciously by Caltrops and Acid Mortar in traps: let's work towards making a set that intentionally synergizes very well with Traps.

I also specifically planned my Respec to drop Smoke Grenade for the new passive. In fact, I mostly had Smoke Grenade for the Max HP Set Bonuses... but it's also insanely strong because it is unresistable debuff. I'll kinda miss it.

Not much to do now but wait, although I guess I can also mention that removing the Sleeps doesn't mean they can't still have a Tranq Dart. Even my idea for a tech control set had one: the power was just much more focused around dealing toxic dmg and applying useful debuffs like -Recharge and -Regen. This set could have a ST Immob, AoE Immob, and a reworked Tranq Dart if they just drop the AoE Sleep and Cloaking Device. I don't actually have a problem with Cloaking Device being in the set, compared to some others here. It's just that it sort-of makes Illusion Control less special because that's the Stealth Control set and it's part of the identity.

I don't think that even a better AoE Sleep power without damage ruining it will make it "fit" in with this DoT-laden set that is meant to be paired with Traps (DoTs) on Controllers and Arse (Ignite DoT) on Doms. There's simply no synergy with Sleep powers with this powerset or the most common pairing powersets. It's okay to go back on the sleep and give it a net shot or a glue bomb as immobs.

I agree with basically all of this. I'm strongly against another currency because this game has a lot of stuff that is daunting for new players despite being an "easy" game and the number of weird currencies is one of them.

Just to be clear, a lot of people still don't understand the mechanics of the SoA/Widow Inherent. It's not a flat value and it never has been. Conditioning multiplies the value of any and all sources of Regen and Recovery in your build because it is a constant invisible increase to your Base Regen and Base Recovery. I think the value is 20% for Regen and 10% for Recovery. Go on test server, open your Combat Attributes and load up any basic AT with standard exactly 100 Endurance then slot Numinas unique and Miracle unique in Health. Test this across various ATs: all of them will show the same numerical value in Combat Attributes specifically, showing +whatever. Now do this on a SoA and it will be a different, higher value. Conditioning multiplies the effect of the slotting you're doing in your build to fix sustain... but it doesn't give you sustain for free at level 1.

I hate damaging sleeps. I hate damaging sleeps. I HATE damaging sleeps that literally force me to nerf my character and intentionally run an inferior Interface proc just so my power can work. We already have 2 really good Sleep Control sets in Mind and Elec. This is so unnecessary. This... guys I'm not going to mince words here: just give this set a ST Immob and an AoE Immob and completely drop the Sleeps, and it's fixed (enough). The idea that this set is supposed to be paired with a gun Assault set with Ignite as the capstone is uh... really genuinely bad if the enemy can just walk out of my Ignite. Even if I wanted to make a Gun Dominator with the new Assault set, I'd just pick a real Control set that actually stops enemy movement consistently and keeps them in my Ignite: probably Earth Control.

I agree about the Dart Burst and Spin changes, while Psynado should obviously just be buffed to have parity with the reworked Psy Blast (I'm genuinely confused that Fort Psy attacks didn't get reworks as soon at Psy Blast did). For real though: let Forts/Widows have the same monstrous, powerful, set-defining Spin that all other Claws characters get. It's long past due and I don't think the AT will suddenly be "too good" just because it's brought into line with the other Claw characters who will still deal more damage because of superior Inherents, or in the Tanker's case superior radius and target caps. We're allowed to let the Night Widow be high tier, but not the top tier.

Please, please, please do not roll back or take away the new powers from Night Widow and Fortunata. My only current complaint is that Fate Sealed should give either some +Max HP as well or some Damage Resistances: so that it can be slotted with useful core Unique IOs the same way as the Night Widow power. I like Fortunatas, but they desperately needed more HP just as much as Night Widows. I like the "idea" of Fate Sealed but it does very little for your build and giving it some +Max HP or +Regen is the easiest way to let people slot something of value into it. On that note: I already planned out my Respec for my Night Widow build.

Here Here. Is it so wrong that we want Control powers in Control sets to Control optimally? The damage in both powers hurts your ability to Control how fights play out, and that's an objective fact. Is dealing dmg for less Control a viable tradeoff? For Controllers... debatably. For Dominators... no. Nope, Doms want a ST Confuse and AoE Sleep EXACTLY how Mind Control's already work: no damage. This is how experienced Dominator players view Symph Controls' current weaknesses.

The ST Confuse and the AoE Sleep both need to not do damage to work properly. This is established knowledge that we all already have from playing the game. People, don't test this set at lv12 on SO's, test it at lv50 with a finished build including your damaging Interface proc like Reactive. Then use a damaging Sleep and tell me with a straight face that it works: it doesn't. It's just a glorified attack with extra optional Sleep set self-heal procs and/or Placate procs. I... don't get how the devs messed up on these things. We already know that Flash Freeze is basically worthless because of this interaction while Mass Hypnosis is actually good and has been used by Dominators soloing content to great effect. This is something we don't have to guess or theorize on, because we have years of experience with how these powers work. Just remove the damage from the Confuse and the Sleep, and honestly make the Sleep a stronger power in general like Elec Control's pulsing sleep.

I only have 2 items for feedback. 1: In terms of CC and ignoring the debuff components: this is literally just Dark Control but with the Haunt pets swapped out for the Sleep... which is fine... but y'know the incredible similarity stuck out to me. I like the aesthetics definitely though. 2: Damaging Sleeps are non-functional at all levels of the game outside of simply being attacks that have the gimmick of also accepting a heal proc and a placate proc from the sleep sets. As a useful tool for Controllers or Doms to stack from lvs1-49, they DO NOT WORK because they literally can't be stacked due to the damage component. Moreover, at lv50 they DO NOT WORK EVEN IN THE FIRST APPLICATION because damaging powers proc Interface, and every good build has a damaging interface. In order to use a damaging sleep as a sleep at level 50+, you have to gimp your own build and run a bad Interface just to be allowed to use the sleep as a sleep. I highly recommend this power be changed to anything else. Some possible replacements for the non-functional damaging sleep are: a cool musical effect field that does no damage and pulses a sleep similar to Elec Control's sleep, or a musical shockwave/sonic boom that is specifically an attack and does 100% knockdown in an area.

Excellent work, Defenders always out there thriving and being awesome.

I'd like them to give VEATs some proper buffs and no redraw when they do that, and fix the Placate bug. I also have a theory as to the cause of this bug, which is related to the fact that they just changed Placate to "activate" instantly in its animation. Most powers have a portion of their animation be "startup", then the effect, then the rest of the animation is "recovery". Placate got changed to have no "startup", so it is able to try and activate BEFORE the redraw animation starts playing... while pretty much every other power in the game is correctly interrupted by the redraw animation and delayed by it. Very interesting.