Replacement

I like the idea of something stomping on Permadom, so the class would actually get looked at and buffed in meaningful ways. I truly believe Dominator would be a better AT by now if it didn't have permadom builds dragging the average up to "acceptable AT performance." No other AT has this level of "you're expected to underperform until you properly invest in set bonuses, procs, and burn a pool selection."

I think we're on the same page, here. See also: Psionic Melee's taunt uses the "mind control" animation. And it fits! So yeah, same deal here. Make it fit the set when possible, simple misdirection when it doesn't (like, uh, Atomic Manipulation).

I've been trying to specify "Misdirection Clone" but often failing. Misdirection is the "new" Concealment Pool power. Aoe Placate. But we would very much change the numbers (much better recharge, don't need the Resistance debuff it also adds, may need to remove the accuracy check). EDIT: Though when I think about it, that could change depending on the power set. You could imagine sets like Devices instead summoning a taunt drone in that spot. The important point is that it should be a power that lends survivability through subterfuge. EDIT 2: Which would mean sets like Darkness would get to be exactly like what you wrote, with a resist toggle in the first replacement slot and stealth toggle in the 2nd replacement slot. But that should not be the norm for all of them. I think "being able to evade your way back to medium range" is very important to pull off the unique feel.

Off-the-cuff resolution: Add segments to the Preparation bar. Each segment gives +1 mez resistance. Pay for the power budget by removing the melee damage bonus from Preparation (much as I liked the incentive, it will basically be impossible to avoid melee attacks, and we can set the melee scale above their ranged. Plus it makes it a little too much like a reverse-Fury). Use the armor toggle like @Steampunkette shows in her Projection powers at T1. T3/4 becomes the Misdirection move. I really like lists We lose only a small amount of per-set identity (and for the record, I really did like seeing all the neat stuff you put in that spot), but I think it's a darling that can be killed to unite their gameplay expectations. This starts them with some oomph, gives them a new AT trick right around the time they start to notice how much harder a Stalker hits, which should carry them until the Sustain truly starts setting them apart. And assuming they lose the Bar pretty quickly, that means staying in close means losing the ability to leave (as their likelihood of getting locked down by mez increases). This should put it more on par with what you could expect a Blaster to have that's using their +Mez protection ATO (which is to say, just enough to make you less annoyed at the game).

I mean, I did say the flaw as I see it is that tough/weave become near-mandatory. I mention these things not like I'm happy with them; I'm objective. I see the flaws and seek ways to minimize them. The purpose of discussing is to improve the final package; not to be right. Just to answer the survivability questions: the game changed at 20 with the Sustain coming online. And while, these days, I really notice (I'm 41 or so, btw) the +Absorb and love it, back at 20, it was really the Endurance boost that made me stop dying. The Epics are obviously Epics. They come online right as the game starts ratcheting up the challenge to match, and it would be the same here. I honestly usually forget to tag things with Blasts for the -ToHit, but yeah, this is obviously a combination built for blapping. Just to confirm, for those in the stands, what we have is: 1) A static stealth passive, an armor toggle, and a misc survival trick (self-heal, stealth toggle, limited mez protection, that sort of thing) vs 2) A decaying power build up + stealth bar, a generous aoe placate, and a mez protection toggle (that may have some minor protections built in, in-line with Unyielding's roughly 5% resist buff) Which makes me feel, again, like I need to head back to the drawing board and see if I can power budget some way to give them a somewhat decent Absorb Shield that builds out of combat. The idea would be that, while Resistance lets you keep taking hits and reducing them, Absorb takes the damage once and tells you to get out of Dodge.

I changed the title to Operative. It's at least a small step-up. I can change it a billion more times.

In a team setting, which is actually where survival is far harder, I do a lot of burst of speed>dragon tails. I then typically jump to a point where a dark cone attack is favorable. If I were back-line blasting, I would end up at roughly that same point for the cone attack anyway. At that point, much of the group is broken and the risk isn't too high in engaging single threats or small groups as dragon tail comes back up. That said, I do shoot quite a bit in full teams. In my more typical solo-duo-trio scenarios, I start most fights with a slow-snipe>burst of speed. In these scenarios, I rely heavily on knockdowns and my absorb shield and I'm only leaving melee range to get more people caught in my cone, and then back in I go. One thing that's worth noting is a blapper like that... I'm running Tough/Weave/Dark Embrace and even Oppressive Gloom, and that's a lot of damage mitigation, which makes my absorb shield last longer between refresh ticks. The only flaw I really see in removing armors from the base pools and moving them to epics is that they make Fighting pool more or less mandatory, as well as the epics (since even I would want armor toggles included, there). But hey, then Unyielding and Integration went and set a precedent for me to be fine with including minor defenses in the mez toggles.

In other games, I would describe that as "linking" behavior -- they don't detect you directly; they detect that their ally has turned aggressive. Regardless, if it works, cool. If not, it doesn't have too big of an impact. I keep thinking about an Absorb shield as a way to communicate "you have overstayed your welcome and you need to drop back and plink," but I feel like that would require a lot of rethinking of other bits, and it still probably wouldn't play well with sets that have their own +absorb. Anyway, there's more to my last take than the lack of Armor toggles. Multi-prong incentives for switching up combat ranges, the passive actually making the Sustain power stronger, the trade-off of Misdirection costing your bar... I feel like it's strong-but-limited, will play uniquely, and cleaves closely to the power sets on which it's built.

What I was referring to and asking about wasn't the guy I shot - I'm more interested in his friends. I am unsure if CoH has a "pack logic" that makes it so if I shoot one guy, the other enemies within that spawn automatically have perfect perception. I don't think so, though. The intent and hope is that savvy players could use the decaying stealth (as opposed to binary stealth) to, say, Total Focus the guy that wandered away from his friends, then still first-strike the rest of the pack instead of being caught in animation.

Misdirection isn't their inherent; it's their secondary's T1. Hide has defensive benefits and is always up. Giving their Misdirection defensive benefits at a cost of their bar makes sense. But I'm still not convinced they need it. I'm not a big hot shot "I've soloed gods and giant monsters" type of player. But I have been playing a dark blast/martial blaster a lot. Let me tell you about my experiences: * For most of this character's career, I've had nothing but basic Invention Origin enhancements and a KB Protection enhancement. This is not an optimized build. * I melee so much, I always have a ranged attack available. * I do mostly solo, but I have played in some full parties. I do not die to aoe (at least not since level 20. Absorb shield is small but very powerful). * What does kill me is Holds. Mind you, as a /martial, I have a free Break Free on a ~90 second timer. I also have Ki Push that launches people trying eat my face to the other side of the room. The fact I can do this while mezzed saves my life semi-regularly. But still, when I die, there was a lot of mez involved. This tells me that most standard content is quite survivable, and that mez is the issue. Sustain powers are meant to get you back in the fight faster, and their inherent power boost should make those effects stronger as well. If they have a survival problem, it will be levels 40+, and even then probably only certain task forces I've never blapped. Which, for me, confirms that armors belong in their Epics. Edit: Important - The issue with armors is it allows them to use ranged attacks in melee. This would undercut the whole point of the AT and become their first order optimal strategy.

Here's an iteration based on both, the ideas of a decaying inherent, as well as inherent stealth, and my own fears of needing mez protection to do their job. Primary: Assault (almost completely untouched. Any Build Ups need replaced with Power Build Up; few changes otherwise) Secondary: Manipulation with some necessary changes. Explained in the bullet points below. It's up in the air if these are big enough to warrant a name-change. I'm sticking with /Manipulation for now. Inherent: Preparation, Advantage, Plans, Ploys, whatever you want to call it. This is a "reverse fury" that is always building and is lowered by actively fighting. Bar is always building so we don't have to deal with in/out of combat flags, and so it remains useful in longer engagements. Attacks reduce the bar. You gain a bonus to the secondary effects of powers, to melee damage, and to stealth based on the size of the bar. Each nearby enemy (say, within ~15-20') reduces how much Preparation you gain per tic to actively promote 2 ranges of combat (get close to use the melee damage buff; make some distance to build faster) Low natural Threat level. Totally optional whether or not this is included in the descriptor of their passive. Powers from Manipulation that overlap with Assaults are removed. The gaps this creates are explained below: T1 becomes a Misdirection clone. This resets your bar to zero and converts it to placate duration. Tier 1 ST immobilize is converted to a Tier 2 aoe Immobilize or equivalent (typically, this is the Controller Tier 3) T3/4 Mez protection. All other Manipulation powers, more or less what @Steampunkette has put together in this thread. This is mostly identical to modern blasters, but may end up with a few more control powers here and there. Design notes and tuning points --If it's too flimsy as seems to be the fear, we could always add defensive benefits to the t1s and 3s. E.g. the Misdirection also gives 30 seconds of high defenses, the mez protection comes with a persistent small Resistance buff. --The key is setting the melee/ranged modifiers, and tuning their survival, to a point where they want to be at both of their effective combat ranges, slipping back and forth. This feeds sharply into the idea that a high Preparation bar increases the effectiveness of their Sustain power to keep them going back to the fight. --I could be mistaken on how the engine/ai works in regards to Stealth, but my thinking is that standard Stealths suppress on-hit, and that's why the rest of the group sees and joins in. If the passive created a weak Stealth effect that doesn't suppress, you could feasibly take out a guy before his friends notice. Trade-off: assuming you average something like 1/3rd of a Stalker's stealth numbers, you're much more vulnerable to them simply turning and seeing you - this, along with the constant decay from attacking, should make it very hard to abuse. The hope is that you could use this as way to essentially use the opening moments of a fight to stack the deck. Start dropping your high damage and limited controls and break an alpha before it fully comes together. --Having the Misdirection move empty out the bar is a big departure, but it's another place where I think it creates some really interesting gameplay loops and decision points. The one tuning point to add here is that it should probably suppress the "aura" portion (the reductions in growth rate based on nearby enemies), and may warrant a +bar growth rate in addition. Something to really make the bar swing could be fun.

Where I currently stand: While I continue to feel like their overall survival isn't a huge issue (and that is something we could only know via playtesting), what does continue to concern me is being mezzed to death. I think a mez protection toggle in the t3/4 slot will protect them far more than the stat-buffs of a few armor toggles. It encourages the reliance on sustain and shifting combat ranges - and they don't have a Blaster's Defiance to just ignore it. A note on Build Up -- I would want this left in the Manipulations for sure. I think the AT will need it. There are a few Assault sets with Build Up, and we would just replace those entries with a power build up. I was actually against this, as I was quite set that an inherent on an AT like this could only possibly be decided after testing revealed their weaknesses, so I didn't want to do a firmer write-up. That said, I like enough of the ideas of this thread that I'm going to take a stab at it in a follow-up post. If it still fails, we'll go from there. But considering we have 3-4 active posters, it's not the end of the world if it doesn't make your list. When I was first thinking about how much I would turn Stalkers into a Cottage, given a chance, I was thinking about how their secondaries should be called "Infiltration" sets, with a naming scheme that reflects how they perform their job. Intrigue works particularly well if you stick with a name like Agent (or Operative why haven't I thought of that one until just now bold letters are fun) that indicates an agenda and a goal. And indeed, I feel that's the biggest difference between this and, say, a Scrapper. Part of the thematic separation is "I have a goal and will use any means necessary." It ties their wide variety of powers to their unique fighting style. But personally, folks. I'd probably call it Manipulation until it starts causing confusion. Speaking of names, please feel free to suggest better AT names. It's obvious Agent isn't really liked, and it was more of a placeholder anyway. Here are the google search terms that should give you hits on this AT (not names): Spy, Undermine, Skirmish, Sabotage, Inside Job, Sow Discord, By Any Means Necessary. I like the power sets, Steampunkette. But I still think the armor toggles can be avoided, and where my brain is currently, I think it will be necessary. That has a cascading effect: I really like your Epic Pool write-ups, but they will probably need to each have a defensive toggle added there instead. -- Also, I agree about /fire Stalkers being silly. Maybe we can convince them to rename it "Smoke Aura."

Probably still Dark Armor. @Auroxis Good analysis so far. I'm curious to know - do you happen to already have some numbers about what it would take from a team to get to the point where melt armor is allowing the tanker to outperform the brute? In essence, what does the party lose to get here? If one /kin Corruptor is enough to get both to a point where Melt Armor starts pushing Tankers over the edge, that's a problem. If it instead requires losing party damage, and the slight tanker advantage hedges the gap, I don't know that it's a bug and not a feature. Like DreadShinobi has mentioned -- the damage caps themselves are their own problem and they are generating a lot of noise on these tanker changes. Lots of ATs have screwed up caps and it deserves its own test cycle. I think at this point, it's probably best to view the 550 cap as simply the easiest way for Captain Powerhouse to see what a Tanker's potential looks like. Having a cap so low that parties are regularly hitting it definitely gets in the way of "real" numbers.

Sorry. Big day at work (I even took a nap in the middle then went back to it). As I mentioned, the powers that are necessary to remove, because they already exist in the Assault sets, are what make time travel possible the defensive or stealth options possible. The overlap in function is actually quite preferred, for me. I feel it's important to preserve that some Manipulation sets lend themselves to more direct confrontation, while others are more control-heavy, and others (devices) are more technical. Instead of being paired with ranged attacks, they're paired with ranged and melee. In my mind, the goal and appeal has been how much of the sets can we try to keep, and just how far from "blap-leaning blaster clone" can we go just by focusing on Stealth and positioning? Also, I REALLY like calling them "intrigue" sets This could be cool. If it doesn't fill fast, it could also refill when your party gets kills. So that it serves as a fast reset to going into the next fight, but still making it so extended conflicts (like AV battles) still see you needing to duck out for a moment every now and again. I don't know about the threat multiplier, but the threat level need not be classified as passive. It's just an attribute like damage modifiers. I like the idea of the passive stealth, but I feel like the secondary tier one should be something like Misdirection. Talk me out of it. I just think it would create an interesting dynamic where the Stalker emerges FROM stealth for murder and the agent (or harrier or saboteur or skirmisher or striker) instead is focused more on always retreating to stealth/placation.

I really like the feedback. I was leaning towards something like what biostem was saying, where any passive would be more about continuing to evade capture than survival, and definitely no crits. But a lot of great ideas in directions I wasn't thinking in. I'm in the middle of some projects atm but I'll quote-respond in a few hours. EDIT: real quick, though. @Zepp I'm not convinced that's a bad thing. Much like Support sets, you will get a wide variety of capabilities based on which Manipulation you choose. It works for blaster; it shouldn't be much different here.

How often is a Tanker tanking for a full party? How often are they soloing EBs? Which of these scenarios is the better to focus on for enforcing their party role? Easily worth the loss for a few levels. I guarantee this will be worse for me, personally, than it will be for 90% of Homecoming. Because I can count on one hand how many times I have joined a PUG shouting for members. And I'm still objective enough to see how much this helps Tankers perform their actual role. Note: the t1/2 swap has been backed out. Abandoned. (I'm discarding AVs because solo AV is so far beyond intended play, particularly at 22-27, that it's not worth addressing)

Yes, and I would like to see the damage scales fixed for any AT that doesn't have a clean ratio of performance between unbuffed and max-buffed. "Ignored" carries some heavy connotations. I didn't think about them. Note that both of those ATs you mentioned have mechanisms that allow them to bend their damage caps, but yeah I largely agree. This is wrong, but it's not the Tanker's fault:

That's not the full picture, though. You have to multiply their damage scales by their damage caps to get a broader view (but still a rather minor one that I can't believe we're still discussing). Blasters and scrappers are 5.625 max damage multiplier (with Scrappers functionally increasing that by ~10% or whatever the current going crit rate is), this incarnation of tanker is 5.225‬ @Haijinx I really do want everyone but Controllers and Masterminds bumped up to 500% damage cap as we discussed on like page 34, but that isn't a topic for this patch. In fact, I wonder how much easier it would be to swallow this 550% number if we had word that they would at least look at damage caps of other ATs down the road... EDIT: we talked about bringing up damage caps for defenders, dominators, and EATS on page... 37ish, if anyone cares.

Super-agree it's the smallest point for the whole test. It's also the one thing that can be nerfed later on without too much fallout. But I would hate to see it kept at 400%. Tanker has no true ways to ratchet up or ignore their damage cap (like crits, scourge, pets, more crits, containment, more pets, opportunity, and even more crits)

I'm trying to keep up, here. Apologies if I come off uninformed. So if I understand, your issue is that a capped damage tanker will be capable of using their newly-superior Melt Armor to actually push them ahead of an identical (damage-capped and armor-melting) Brute? I think at that point, my remaining question is "what did it take to get the Tanker to that damage cap vs getting the Brute to that point?" I was just saying a page or 2 ago that the ATs should perform similarly at damage cap vs standard unbuffed scenarios, so I'd be a hypocrite to back-pedal on that. But I do think there's a range where it doesn't need to be precise if there are other factors, here, like "tanker needs a whole 3rd party member buffing their damage."

Errr no? The secondary is "Recognizably Manipulation, with barebones replacements to avoid overlap with Assaults." While I do like the idea of armor/control, it's just about the exact opposite of this class. This is basically a blapper with 3 survival advantages: 1) A very slight increase in enemy immobilization. Honestly, this won't even matter after level 25 or so. 2) Inherent Stealth 3) Space for one additional defensive ability. I would argue for a Placate or mez protection. Blappers are doable; this is a take that would "institutionalize" some survivability while injecting some much-needed personality. This is Bullseye, the AT.

Data is data. Let me know if it gets down to +/-10 seconds. At that point, yeah, the minutiae is too high. But if the difference is obvious and far above random deviation, it has value. I'm not ready to say I agree with the conclusion, but I don't think it's wise to discount any testing.

@Zepp's very nice Summary, with a minor edit by me to the powersets for the sake of focus: Operative (19.09.24.06.34.01) Assault/Manipulation Preparation: Low threat level, stealth (weak), and a bar that constantly builds but is reduced by attacks - grants improved secondary effects Operatives are strategic agents that have many skills that they must strategically employ to be effective. They use a Manipulation secondary that has been bolstered by a modicum of armor and control for survival. There are suggestions for the modified manipulation secondary (Intrigue) as well. Updated Description I've left my OP mostly in-tact below the big dividing line for context. Intent: Reusing two interesting sets (Assault and Manipulation) in a focused way. Just because they have lots of different tools doesn't mean they should be viewed as a bland jack-of-all-trades. Instead, this AT takes all those tricks and puts them toward a thematic task, at home in a Spy Thriller. Operative - The (wo)man with the plan. The operative always has a goal and always watches the exits. They are a mixed-range combatant and fight opportunistically with a combination of surprise and control to make up for their inherent flimsiness. Example character fictions that describe Operatives: Spies, Mafia sweepers (The Duke), Counterterrorist agents, Mixed-range assassins like Deadshot or Bullseye. Inherent - Preparation: A bar that grows continually and is reduced by attacking, sort of like a "reverse fury." The bullet points are listed in order of importance. The further down you go, the more "we would see how testing works out" Provides a scaling +Stealth effect. Always regenerating so it stays useful during prolonged engagement. I imagine this bar gaining and dropping very quickly. Also provides a Power Boost effect, focusing particularly on buffing the Operative's own Sustain abilities they gain access to through Manipulation. Secondarily, on their meager armor powers. This is an obvious tuning point for the AT. It's possible to not only tweak the rates of growth and expense, but also add/remove the benefits provided, as testing would no doubt reveal issues with the class. Note: Not listed as part of the inherent, every Manipulation set will have a power that functions as an AoE Placate/Distract. This power will also function as a Break Free (Similar to Blaster>Martial Combat>Inner Will) and likely tied to the Inherent bar in some way. My current model is that it would empty your Preparation bar and gain a duration increase based on its size. This would mean remaining Stunned for a few seconds to let your bar fill a bit more may well be better than immediately popping it and getting back in the action. Primary - Assault: Very few changes needed. Some sets have Build Up which should be replaced (likely with Power Build Up, but Aim may be more important for some/all). If you look at a particular Assault set and find I am wrong, the answer is "That would not be a a launch set." Secondary - Manipulation: Some adjustments are necessary, and quite fantastically, they create the exact opportunity we need to tie the whole concept together. On average, 2 powers need removed from a Manipulation set in order to play nice with Assault. This is the assumption this post makes. Sets that require a 3rd removal tend to have easy replacement powers, and sets that require more would not be launch sets. Here's the breakdown of how it would look: T1 is typically a Smoke Bomb/Misdirection type power. Aoe Placate/Distract + Break Free, tied to Inherent (see Inherent Note). Default is an AoE Placate, but some sets could come with a taunting temporary pet instead, or other interesting tricks. The core important part is getting people to stop attacking you. Remember: This AT isn't interested in being a Stalker. It has no Surprise Crit mechanics and uses stealth and placates to survive; not to increase DPS! T2 is an AoE Immobilize or similar. In general, find the standard T1 Manipulation power, then replace it with the Control T3 power most similar. This class relies a lot on active defense, and this is mostly a thematic way to set the tone of their sabotaging playstyle. It really shouldn't add much power after level 20 or so. Tuning points include target caps and damage. T3/T4 (where the 2nd overlapping melee attack normally resides) becomes an armor ability. Based off of known armor toggle (e.g. Electricity Manipulation would likely get something based on Charged Armor), which sets the primary defensive benefits (Charged Armor gives Resistance to Smashing, Lethal, and Energy damage) If the power budget allows, I think this ability should also have a minor amount of related armor for "everything else." For example, if the Operative version of Charged Armor provides 19.25% S/L/E resistance (Blaster numbers used for this example btw), also include 5-11% resist to all other damage. Energy Manipulation would likely gain a version of Kinetic Shield mostly skewed towards S/L Defense, with a minor amount of +defense to all other damage types (not positional). To shake things up, some sets could swap the position of this power with the T1 "stop hitting me" power. This would be a good fit for sets found terrible without the armor power (so putting it at T1 forces the selection). The rest of Manipulation is unchanged when possible. When a change is needed, it should edge towards control first, unless it's in danger of rivaling an actual Control set. This includes the name, if possible. The name of the Secondary should still be Manipulation to keep player understanding and expectations (this isn't that much changed when you compare to how distorted Stalker primary and secondaries are relative to their melee cousins). Obviously, this goes out the window if it's causing confusion. In which case, this thread provides some other good names such as Intrigue or Projection. This thread has several laid out examples of alternative ways to flesh out this secondary. Much of it is included in or inspired this version. I am, of course, biased towards my own vision so I cannot clearly recommend one way or another. Only that my preference would be to view this proposal as I've laid it out first and use their fantastic write-ups to see all the other ways this could run if my vision isn't clicking. Updated Example Manipulation set: Ice Manipulation (Italics indicate changed powers, underline indicates brand new) Tier Power Notes 1 Ice Clone Create inanimate taunt pet, break free 2 Frostbite Control T3 AoE Immobilize 3 Frozen Armor Tuning point: add minor +def to other attacks 4 Frigid Protection 5 Build Up 6 Ice Patch 7 Shiver 8 Freezing Touch 9 Frozen Aura Darkness Manipulation Tier Power Notes 1 Shade-away! <Insert Good Name Here> - Aoe Placate 2 Living Shadows Control T3 - Cone Immobilize 3 Death Shroud 4 Dark Embrace Moderate S/L resist, Lesser N/T, ?Minor EFCP? 5 Shadow Maul Yep! Extra melee attacks are fine! 6 Soul Drain 7 Touch of the Beyond 8 Dark Consumption 9 Dark Pit Midnight Grasp removed for overlap; other powers pushed down to make way for an earlier armor toggle. OLD POST IN HERE Cheers

Nice. If anyone cares, the +aoe should apply to Speed's Whirlwind as well. I'm sure the 4 tankers built in the last 20 years that took that power care?

Neat. I think I just got temp-banned from this thread. Am I right to assume +Cone arc applies even to the longer Epic cones, like the 60' in Shark Attack Mastery? I'm trying to think -- are there any aoes that are 10' or smaller that are not pbaoe I could test out? Also, small note: the OP still has +100% size. Probably other old details as well. Don't think it's causing much confusion but i figured i should mention it.