Replacement

This is... Horrifyingly correct. I've never been a fan of domination. At all. The feast is too brief and hard to count on... Right up until it becomes perma. Another one of those poor binaries that we never should've kept. Edit to avoid double post: Maybe a fury leadership would be fun. Get bar for being involved in the fighting, bar size dictates how strong your aura is. Could also keep the starter power interactions too, if that was desired. Have them function as switches flipped to change the benefits. Man, this is hard to do without it turning into a Marshall class. CP's job is hard.

I agree with whoever said to combine recall friend and teleport foe into one power with a fast cast time (same as regular teleport) and a low cooldown. If no one said that, then I did. EDIT: and extensions to teleport's hover are only acceptable if the Descend key ("x") immediately cancels it.

That seems fine in theory, but the desire for a dedicated melee/support is real. While I'm just unable to truly back something that just adds in armor powers and such, some tweaks really would be necessary on any of the buff-oriented sets. Letting a corruptor just get Savage Assault, for example, is going to lead to them pairing it with something terrible for the task, like Empathy, and either build melee and die, or... Shoot birds. And be dissatisfied that their fiction isn't being fulfilled. Adding Assaults to Sentinels can work. Adding them to Corruptors is devastating. I realize I'm walking a fine line, here: I don't want an AT created for a very specific character (a paladin, in this case), but I legitimately believe a melee/support is missing outside of that. If you can make a Paladin out of whatever AT comes of that, cool. But the AT comes first, and it should be something that fits the fiction.

This is actually better for PvP, I think. If your "counter" to an insta-gank is another insta-gank, you really fuel binary gameplay. This is why hard counters are typically very bad. Soft counters, where you just have an edge, are definitely better. The other thing worth noting is that no amount of +perception is feasibly going to let you see a Hidden stalker at sniping distance. So instead what you end up with is a sentinel that has a slight edge in detecting the stalker before they can unload, changing the confrontation into a desperate skirmish. Which is good and interesting. Re: Sentinel passive: it's worth remembering that Passives needn't be strong if the rest of the AT shines on its own (such as high multiplier). I'm not sure, personally, what I'd like to see. Part of me says "something that lets them perform as a spotter for squishies" to encourage them to hang back, but then what's the armor for? I guess that's another point for something aura-based: something that encourages them to define a front- and backline and then stand between them.

Isn't this sort of like saying "I don't get it. You have Fire Control. Why would you need to /kin?" You have a primary and a secondary. As long as damage is secondary to tanking, and does not displace other ATs, it is a success. I don't understand why people would be against changes that allow people to care about half of their powers.

tl;dr and thesis: you gotta let the Paladin go. Personal bits and bias before I launch into the meat: I have no idea where to post this and i'm sure most of you will say I should've kept my thoughts to myself. I am not fond of any "new set types." Something like half armor/half support requires too much work, and it just kicks the can down the road. Now folks will want a halvzies/control AT, and a summon/halvzies. I'm more interested in filling what feels missing, and it's clearly melee support. I also need to confess that while I love Paladins in most games, I have zero desire to build one in CoH. Prong 1: Tanking. The ongoing Tanker feedback threads have convinced me that no combination of Melee and Support sets can reasonably be allowed to have "tank" as part of their role. The identities on the spectrum of Scrapper-Brute-Tanker are already tenuous, at best. Adding a new tank-capable Support class upsets this balance way beyond a reasonable level. I'm not saying tanking should be impossible -- but it should probably be a thing that requires certain sets and the Presence pool. This is also what gets us down the path of creating entire new power set types whole-cloth, and all the uncertainty that comes along with it. I'm really happy with what Rebirth is attempting with their Guardian, but nothing about it feels like it's part of CoH's original trajectory, which is my best description possible about the positive changes Homecoming has made. Good, meaningful additions that fit the game's trajectory. Prong 2: Empathy (and other difficult sets) It could be a noise/signal ratio issue, but it seems to me Empathy is always the argued point about any Support/Melee (or vice versa) combo. It's iconic, but there are some problems, here. 1) While it obviously contributes to the stereotypical Paladin, there really aren't many comic book superheroes that fit this. In fact, Empathy type healers are pretty rare entirely; let alone as a combo with awesome melee prowess. In other words: this is a conflict of fantasy. You are trying to wedge a medieval trope into a superhero comic book setting. 2) Empathy's core design principles are the most antithetical to a melee character. Dominators still don't have Illusion Control. That never stopped Paragon Studios from making the AT. You focus on the powers that work. 3) This isn't really a "problem" of Empathy but I had a 3rd point to make and nowhere else to stick it: just like any other AT, proliferation can happen down the line. But it requires first, a solid foundation of how the class is expected to play. And that brings us back to the thesis: the reason we want to talk about tanking and the reason we go straight to Empathy (a set not in particularly high demand elsewhere), is because we keep trying to create a one-stop shop for all your Paladin needs. But if you build an AT for one specific flavor of character, it ceases to be an AT at all. If this is a topic we continue to revisit, let's - as a community - focus on truly filling what's missing: support/melee combo characters. There are a billion characters waiting to be realized in this space, and we'll never get to any of them as long as we can't move past Empathy.

This is just about meme-worthy at this point.

Yeah. This is... a really solid approach.!

Thanks, good catch. It's 32s on the melees vs 16 for blaster. But also, KO Blow is 25s on the melees and 40s on blasters, so distorts that comparison as well. These are definitely "biased" skills, which is inevitable when trying to compare a tanker to a blaster -- we will mostly resort to attacks designed for one AT being used by the other. I suppose I should put together who Flurries best but I'm super not-gonna.

-I like the t1 and 2 power activation mechanic, oddly enough. I think Opportunity needs to lean into it more by emphasizing all their added effects into those 2 "modes" paired with increased up-time (second half of post). -Sort of like a Kheldian, Opportunity should provide 3 mindsets: Offensive-only, Defensive-only (I'm ok with this one being less common), and "stance-dancers." -Whatever debuff penalties are apparently and supposedly going on regardless of Opportunity should probably be rolled into Offensive. -Defensive Opportunity should add a taunt to all your attacks, and supply more survivability. Right now, it appears to just be a weak heal per target hit, which means a good Defensive Opportunity relies on triggering it timely, with your meager aoes off CD to use right at that moment. I would probably change it to a straight up stacking HoT triggered on all your attacks, with amount per tick scaled to the powers' recharge. Keep attacking to keep healing... but also taunting. I would also change the triggering system: * T1s and 2s only require 10-20% of the bar to be filled, with duration the same as Live (or no duration; it just deactivates if you hit 0) * Instead of emptying the bar when it's over, attacks simply drain the same amount they would normally fill while an Opportunity is active. * Using the other starter attack will either flip modes (or allow you to stack both Opportunities at double-drain, though I do not prefer that route). That should result in something like an 85%+ up-time, with real decisions on what they are achieving for the party.

Ok. ...No really. I can see the sense in this. That said, it achieves the same thing to just get Tanker in a good spot relative to the other high performing popular ATs, then move onto other ATs in the next cycle. As someone (EDIT: Haijinx) said a few pages back already, "get your buffs and move to the back of the line."

In addition to system-level changes, there were at least 30 powers modified in this update. By definition, this was not "quickly slapped together." While I am mostly all for these changes, I do think there is some risk in going above 500% damage increase. But given half a chance, I would probably up Defenders, Dominators, and any EATS to 500% as well (MMs and trollers effectively ignore their damage caps anyway). Really, though, I think it feels wrong to balance around max damage multipliers. Are you guys really running around with full time perfect Fulcrum Shifts?

That would be double-dipping. Tanker .8 damage modifier *1.2 (best case scenario for an unresisted Bruising) = .96 damage modifier. So the damage .96 is essentially "idealized bruising" baked into every Tanker's power. The fact that it also affects a lot of their aoe is probably being viewed as a rough tradeoff for the actually negligible amount of damage you were providing your party via debuffs.

Re: Bruising vs AVs. I saw posts (much) earlier in the thread talking about how it ignored purple patch, and others saying it purple patches itself into oblivion. It would be really nice if someone was able to say definitively if this really ignored Purple Patch on Live or if a developer just said it did. I'm not saying the live devs were liars so much as human. Entirely possible they meant for it to ignore it but it didn't work come implementation time.

Mad props to you for this. Definitely reaffirming why I've always loved the community. This is a valid concern. I feel I should mention it's also an edge case (Blasters are always getting high amounts of +damage, Brutes obviously moreso; Tankers are only getting it in parties that lack real damage dealers because those slots were replaced with Kins). I'm liking this. In the discussion of "Tankers need some amount of increased damage (and damage potential)," we stumble on a metric that functions as something of a pivot point: Can the Tanker be allowed to do "the adults are talking" levels of damage, and how much actual party damage does it require you to sacrifice to hit that point? I don't know these answers, I just think it's a good note to keep in mind. I wanted to run another scenario, swiping your format: Dmg % Ball Lightning Damage Scale 100% Blaster 63.81 1.125 500% Blaster Cap 319.05 1.125 100% Tanker Old 45.38 0.8 400% Tanker Cap 181.52 0.8 100% Tanker New 45.38 0.8 575% Tanker Cap 260.94 0.8 100% Brute 42.54 0.75 775% Brute Cap 329.69 0.75 Ball Lightning was designed for Blaster as much as KO Blow was designed for Tanker, so these are opposing in their biases and we need to recognize that. But this is often a "bread and butter" skill for brutes regardless. Assuming I did my math right (and I strongly suggest someone check it; I'm just using Mids and multiplying by max damage), you can see the Blasters and Brutes were maxing out at just about double what a Tanker was doing. And with their far superior access to damage buffs, even the starting damages are worse than they look Anecdotally, my experience has been that as blaster who isn't even paying attention, I tends to hover around 30% damage buff (83 damage Ball Lightning) from Defiance, and that a Brute with plain IOs can get roughly 60% damage buff (68 damage Ball Lightning) from Fury within the first half of the first pack they come across. I feel like we need to launch to Live servers with a waiver message that pops up whenever you try to roll a tank that says "hey, this might get nerfed later on and you waive your rights to complain about it by choosing to create this character."

This isn't binary, buddy. There exists a point where you can add enough damage for tankers to feel good without threatening other ATs. And as CP said, Bruising is currently providing almost nothing to Tankers except forcing a weak power into all of their attack chains. I feel like every argument you make against the changes should apply to Corruptors. But the forums don't seem to show a bunch of upset Defenders and Blasters so nuance must be working, to at least some extent. Note that the damage cap is going to be 575% from 600% next build, so keep that in mind. As someone who mostly plays in squads smaller than 4 members, I will enjoy these buffs. As someone who enjoys playing Support, I would feel a lot better knowing any offensive buffs aren't a complete waste on a Tanker. As a human being trying to enjoy a game, I welcome changes combating the old "this class just isn't allowed to have fun" mentality.

So this is interesting. I've been rewatching Chuck with my wife and what do I see? Pineapple: a code word to be uttered in emergency, to declare that everything is over and that it's time to abandon all hope and run. Seems to fit the Tanker and Rage feedback threads pretty well. (sidenote, while goofy, this show is brilliant. It's not all this sort of stooge-humor)

Actual testing is so page 10 (edit: looks like my own 20/30 testing was page 12). We really needed a dedicated "cathartic argument" thread separate from a dedicated testing/feedback thread. Dear Homecoming staff: please give us a brand new thread when this week's patch hits the Pineapple.

Yeah! It's hilarious when you activate Walk on a /martial blaster! (Reaction time gives you a move speed buff when it's DEactivated, resulting in a very fast walk). Pretty sure outside buffs would also have the same effect. Ok that's all I'll say on that off-topic, here.

Yeah but, I would love it if Walk was turned into a Rest Lite. -Remove detoggle -May or may not need only affects self -No debuffs aside from "I walk slow but I look cool" -level-based bonus to regen and recovery while active, so characters slowly graduate to using it as Rest stops being useful.

So.... what are we arguing about? This is called agreeing with me. I just said I want it to go to Combat Jumping numbers, which is low enough that it feels crappy to IO for defense, but it's acceptable. You just said taking it to CJ numbers would really help out. So we both want it to get CJ numbers and be capable of taking Defense IOs. Go team!

I still struggle to see the point of using AE for powerleveling characters to 50 when alting is the endgame, and we have a beta server right over there I frequently use to try out power combos I'm curious about. But then, I have zero level 50s on the HC live servers, and I've taken to running 2x tunnel witches on most new characters. I'm sure people with more play time than me are just as tired of founder's falls radio missions as I am of steel canyon radio missions.

Finally got a chance to test this. Leandro is a monster. This is ruining my marriage.

I thought we had one from a few months ago but I either made it up or my search-fu is weaker than new-forums-fu.

The consistency sucks. I'll grant you that, Inferno. On a power scale, though, this is the outcome: Increases power of the set for a veteran; decreases the power of the set for the fresh recruit. It's simply evident to me that the whole thread highlights the need for Ice Armor to get an update. Up the base defense to 2.5% first, and I'd be happy to see it added to the defense IO list (still so low that it's nearly a trap to enhance for defense, but at least it's at a precedented level). EDIT: It appears I should stress this: I seem to side with Vanden overall on why Wet Ice shouldn't get +defense enhancements in its current state, but my solution is to take the time to have a conversation about Ice Armor anyway. It's "not bad" at the moment but it could use some slight buffs, particularly pre-26.