Wavicle
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Posts posted by Wavicle
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1 hour ago, Haijinx said:
The other guardian? This one didn't seem to have that.
This one gets a small amount of mez protection and absorption in the inherent to make up for the lack of actual armor.
I know nothing at all about the class on Rebirth. -
6 minutes ago, Leogunner said:
Well you did bring up Corruptors' uniqueness. I merely described how their inherent can be considered a uniquely offensive aspect of a support AT.
Perhaps you'd want to throw back all the way to the original comment saying how the AT would FUNCTION differently? Inherent status protection is different, but it's also passive (the most passive you can get). Nothing wrong with that....then what ELSE does it do uniquely?
FYI, I'm one of the 2 people that upvoted your OP. I haven't been making many comments because I've been sick but now that I'm pretty good now, I make comments to get people talking and if it's a suggestion, brainstorming on improving stuff. Being critical of ideas is a good thing.
And your comments have been some of the most constructive on the thread, and I appreciate that. If I come across as just arguing I apologize, it was only the suggestions by some people that there was no possibility for this combination of power sets to be fun to play or that it was somehow by definition over powered or under powered that I objected to.
I’m pretty confident that these devs are at some point going to attempt a melee support class using some version of the existing support sets. Maybe it won’t look anything like what I’ve described here, but I think we’re going to get it eventually.
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9 minutes ago, Haijinx said:
It partially does, since Assault sets are already largely similar to Blast sets.
If what you're suggesting actually worked they could have, instead of creating Sentinels, just proliferated Armor to Blasters. There's a reason they did not do that.
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5 minutes ago, Leogunner said:
And why the hell does ANOTHER AT's unique mechanics have to rely on another hypothetical AT's mechanics? The point was making the AT unique in some way and you tried making an example of an AT that DOES have a unique mechanic.
I was alluding to the mess of "It's between this AT and that AT in this, it's between this AT and that AT in that..." Just tell us what the AT is MEANT to do and then let the players fondle it to do what they want with it, even if it's at non-optimal capacities than a more specialized AT.
Then I'd ask what the absolute frikk a GUARDIAN has to do with trickery and sneaking about? Maybe you didn't have a clear concept or you changed the concept halfway through?
That's fine. I'm just saying don't tie your concept to an extremely situational power like Placate. There's not that many people who clamour for it and its effects immediately disappear the moment your own effects start to touch the target which would be VERY likely if you have any kind of persistent debuffs on the field.
Also, I don't know how you can play anymore defensively than a Defender without completely cutting your offense at the ankles. If that's the case, why not keep Placate as an offensive tool that's limited so you can actually do something effectively offensively but on a limited scale dubbed by Placate and its recharge?
Well, the inherent I designed DOES have a unique mechanic, so that has already been addressed. The AT is meant to be a non squishy support toon.
I don't think Placate neccessarily has to be about being sneaky, but I see what you're getting at. I just see it as an aggro management ability. But that's fine, something else in that spot is an option.
I originally considered going with Confront, but I thought Placate would be more unique and interesting, given that only one AT really gets it and no AT that isn't pure dps gets it. -
Just now, Haijinx said:
I did not suggest Melee sets
I suggested Assault sets.
That doesn't avoid the problem I cited.
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1 minute ago, Haijinx said:
History would suggest otherwise.
Sentinels are not right yet.
You could argue that Kheldians are not right yet.
Doesn't change the fact that adding melee sets to Defenders would be a huge problem. For one thing, they would likely duplicate abilities already in their Epic sets, so Those powers would have to be replaced within the new sets.
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Just now, Haijinx said:
It is perhaps easier to adjust melee scale than coming up with a new AT.
That changes how all the melee attacks already available to that AT work. You would then have to individually changed all of those powers.
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It is in fact wrong to say that power proliferation is a simpler way to do this. It is actually a More complicated way to do it. Making a new AT is the simple way to do it.
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1 minute ago, Haijinx said:
Id rather do neither. But proliferation would be much more straight forward than a new AT.
Look at Energy Blast vs Energy Assault. They already share multiple powers.
So you are actually only juggling partial set changes. (Replacing some ranged attacks with Melee attacks)
It is in fact not that simple.
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2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:
Id argue it is not given that there are a couple spots left.
If this was a game in beta I'd suggest we may already have too many.
Besides flavor text, why are Corruptors inherently "ranged"?
Corruptors have BAD melee damage modifiers. If you gave them a melee set it would suck. This is how the game works.
An AT includes more than just HP and an inherent. -
Just now, Haijinx said:
Id argue it is not given that there are a couple spots left.
If this was a game in beta I'd suggest we may already have too many.
Besides flavor text, why are Corruptors inherently "ranged"?
They are a ranged dps/support hybrid. That is the design.
That's like asking "besides flavor text, why are Dominators inherently "CC"? "Why are Stalkers inherently melee?"
Because that's the game. -
2 minutes ago, Leogunner said:
Scourge is pretty unique. Sure, it's just "crits" which both Stalkers and Scrappers do...but no ranged AT does AND it has unique mechanics that trigger it. That's unique.
No one said anything about DPS although an argument could be made that having an offensive secondary DOES make Defender a partial DPS AT.
But I said hybrid melee and support. Whatever a melee AT tends to try to accomplish could be what one considered "melee" which could also include keeping targets away from other teammembers or acting as a focal point (drawing foes toward you) for the rest of the team.
Whether it's meant to be a pure support SHOULD rely on what the AT can't do and then gauge if such a niche is unique. Do we need more pure support ATs? Maybe so...then what CAN'T this support AT do to justify the things it can do?
Power Build Up? Why not just scrap placate all together and make a new power instead?
Scourge is unique but has nothing to do with buffs. The comment I was responding to was about unique Buff mechanics.
I was very careful to give the design limitations so it would not be overpowered. What specifically can you point to as a problem?
I like the idea of the AT getting Placate. The POINT of the design is to have a Buff Primary class that plays more defensively than the Defender. Support that is not as squishy. To justify that it has to be fairly low damage and low range. Placate fits with that design better than any sort of Taunt. As an ability in the Attack set it makes sense that it has Something to do with interacting with mobs. I'm open to another idea. Any suggestions? -
Just now, Haijinx said:
Or perhaps the other way around.
Many of us feel adding a new AT should be very rare. Thus the need should be compelling.
Often its an excuse to get some broken inherent or some unbalanced sets of stats introduced.
For example. If we prolifered some Assault sets to Corruptors, you could basically do the Support+ Melee thing, without changing the game's character all that much. Since the inherent, hp, epics, etc already are hashed out.
But proponents always want the new AT. And to me that suggests something.
I'm trying to work within the system that currently exists. Profilerating melee attacks to corruptors is not justified within the existing system. Corruptors are a ranged dps AT, by design. The design of the game suggests that to have buff with melee a new AT would have to be created.
I agree that adding a new AT should be rare. There are only a couple spots left. One is buff with melee. Another is Pets on a DPS class with perhaps a small amount of armor, but Not buffs. That's about it. Everything else is already filled.-
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2 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:
it's NOT FUN (I played a beta of the original guardian)
I'm asking for more. because That one was not fun does not therefore imply that the basic premise of buff/melee is not fun. WHY was that one not fun?
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1 minute ago, boggo2300 said:
and the general purpose, which is what I believe is the problem, don't get me wrong, this is much better thought out than the original Guardian, it's just the base premise is flawed I think
You're going to have to back that up. There is, as far as I can see, no reason to think the base premise of buff/melee is flawed. Justify your statement, perhaps?
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Just now, boggo2300 said:
no But Leo and Cpt Powerhouse tried and rejected the Guardian that's now on rebirth for similar reasons
This has nothing to do with that. Only the name.
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13 minutes ago, boggo2300 said:
Take it up with Positron, he's the one that said it
Positron couldn't make it fun, maybe. But he doesn't work here anymore!
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41 minutes ago, Leogunner said:
Basically, this topic has been rehashed many times. Overall, a melee offense, support defense type AT can be done in many ways and its overall effectiveness can vary.
The problem is, IMO, is posters get very caught up on proposing "the best" way when what is needed is "a unique" way. People get caught up in making it the best "middle of the road/jack of all trades" when it mostly needs to play differently which is actually harder when you're hybridizing 2 ATs together (a melee AT and a support AT). Because people get caught up with that aspect, they then get caught up in reinforcing said idea in their head and completely forget about the first paragraph (that there are many ways to come at the idea).
Another way to come at an idea when presenting it to others is telling us what it DOESN'T DO. I think that's a funny angle because people will get caught up explaining how it fits between 2 ATs at various things. If you tell me what it cannot do, you can justify it for what it can do.
Well, I'm not really convinced that they need anything "unique" in that sense, Corruptors don't really have anything like that. But I'll play along.
First, this is not meant to be a hybrid dps/support class. It is meant to be a pure support class, like Defenders. So perhaps, first, the buffs need to be a little stronger, close to Defender strength.
Now how about something like this: What if their Placate gave a 10 second buff to Heals, Defense Buffs, Damage Resistance Buffs, ToHit Debuffs, Defense DeBuffs, etc.?-
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They aren’t designed to fill a tank role. They are designed to fill a support role. They don’t typically get pets in the primary that’s just dark miasma. Which is just the example I used.
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So are people saying they think this would be either overpowered or underpowered? I would think the numbers could be tweaked to make that not the case.
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13 minutes ago, FDR's Think Tank said:
You could always make the Inherent similar an inverted version of Mastermind Inherent. What if the support/melee is like a Tauntless Tank? They basically have automatic pain-sharing from allies in a certain range of them... it's giving an ally cover. They would have aura buffs they share that don't quite give them defense on the level of a tank, scrapper, or brute... but all of their buffs/heals/rez powers can SELF-target as well as be used on allies. You would probably have to deny the class any pet powers or debuffs that weren't some sort of self-aura, but I think this could be really fun having super flexible support abilities, a beefy HP, and simple melee.
I could even see a some of the support sets for this class being based on existing defensive sets too... The Shield Set would probably have some interesting differences as a support power, for instance. For sets like fire, you can modify the support powers to fit the new AT Profile, but even sprinkle in some defensive set powers where the support ability slips out of buff/heal/rez/self-aura debuff.
This side steps the issue of having a inherent that forces you to try to take damage when you are squishy and competing with tanks for taunt. Otherwise, you might drift from the team and main battle, trying to hunt down foes simply to hit you so your bar can fill up. A support class can fight, but they should focus on positioning themselves to assist allies. The scrapper, the brute, the stalker are the classes that can haul off on their own and stir up trouble on the fringes. They don't need to worry as much about the team formation.
For other AT names... you could try Champion or Warden.
What you've just described is the Arachnos classes. The whole point of this design is to use the exisiting Buff sets.
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1 minute ago, Replacement said:
Was it this AT or are you talking about the name, Guardian?
My understanding is the other one they were playing with (which is apparently a thing over on Rebirth now) is an Assault/armor/support AT (in roughly that order), and the OP's suggestion here simply uses the name Guardian.
We definitely need a support/melee. We really do. But yeah, it would be a bad idea to call it Guardian at this point.
My design here is based on a suggestion made by GM Jimmy in a conversation on Excelsior. I had no idea that there had been a previously considered archetype with the same name. We can change the name.
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Proposal for a new archetype: The Protector, melee support specialist.
The Protector has a buff/debuff primary and melee damage secondary. They take a pure support role alongside defenders and controllers, they lack the range but make up for it with survivability.
Their buff/debuff and CC values are similar to those of a corruptor (perhaps very slightly better), but they have hit points closer to a stalker. The range of most of their buff/debuff abilities is no more than that of sentinel's blast abilities. Their melee attacks do somewhat less than tanker damage, with base damage slightly higher than a brute but a cap lower than a tanker. Their self defense caps are around those of a stalker.
Like most melee attackers they get Build Up or some other damage boost in their attack set. They do not get Confront, but instead get Power Placate, which does not allow you to get critical strikes but gives a 10 second Power Boost effect when used.
The Protector has an inherent power that helps them survive in the melee environment, Stalwart, a passive power that gives a small amount of protection from sleep, stun, and hold and gives a moderate absorb shield that gradually refills when depleted. It also grants a buff to the range of many of their buff/debuff abilities that increases as team health decreases. The range buff does not activate when solo.
Their Ancillary and Patron pools look similar to those of defenders, but with short range attacks instead of melee, and of course without access to Power Boost or Power Build Up or other powers now available in their secondary sets. None of their epic pools would include sniper attacks, but their Patron pools would include pets at the highest tier.
A sample Protector powerset combination:
Primary Powerset: Dark Miasma
1 Twilight Grasp
1 Tar Patch2 Darkest Night
6 Howling Twilight
8 Shadow Fall
12 Fearsome Stare
18 Petrifying Gaze
26 Black Hole
32 Dark Servant
Secondary Powerset: Psionic Melee
1 Mental Strike
2 Psi Blade
4 Telekinetic Blow
10 Power Placate
16 Psi Blade Sweep
20 Concentration
28 Boggle
35 Greater Psi Blade
38 Mass Levitate
Ancillary Pool: Electricity Mastery
35 Electric Fence35 Ball Lightning
41 Charged Armor
41 Shocking Bolt
44 Power Sink
With their higher hit points and defensive inherent ability the Protector serves as a lightly armored support specialist, somewhat tougher than a defender despite slightly less powerful buffs. Their low base damage and damage cap gives them damage close to that of defenders, but their need to be in melee to do that damage puts them at greater risk despite their resilience.
The Protector fills one of the last holes in the archetype system, giving the player near total flexibility in choosing powerset combinations for their character.
EDITS: Changed Placate to Power Placate (Placate+10 second Power Boost) and changed name from Guardian to Protector.-
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I just had an idea though.
What if Sentinel primaries got Build Up (with +Range) instead of Aim?
Regeneration suggestions
in Suggestions & Feedback
Posted
I am unconvinced that any of this is necessary. People just need to learn how to play their regen characters.