Steampunkette

Because perceptions guide people to make decisions. People buy the "Economy Box" of laundry detergent because it's 'cheaper' than buying the smaller box. Sure you pay more at the register but you get a lot more detergent so it evens out, right? But they give you a commensurately bigger scoop so that you use more laundry detergent with the big box than the small box and run out at the same time. You spend more total money on the big box thinking it will last you longer, it lasts the same amount of time, so you spend more money. Instead of $6 every 4 weeks you're certain you'll spend $9 every 6 weeks but you wind up spending $9 every 4 weeks. If anyone was arguing for 'Perfect Balance' that might be a worthwhile question to ask. But no one is. Or ever has. So pick up your Strawman off the ground and stop knocking him over. Poor guy. See, that's what -I- thought, but it's just not popular. *Shrug*

1) Yeah, 69k out of 60k. There's a lot of people who combine SS and SJ. *shrug!* I guess if you're already going for CJ and Hasten you might as well, right? 2) The "Ire" is aimed at Hasten because it's the big standout that only becomes unbalancingly powerful when combined with the Set Bonuses. However the Set Bonuses themselves have got a bunch of different gates. The set bonuses are actually pretty well balanced among themselves. But Hasten isn't pretty well balanced among power pools. So while set bonuses are pretty well balanced against each other, this one power interacts with them in a way that unbalances recharge rate. Change 1 power, or change the balance of every set? Rough choice. 3) The Original Post was "Delete Hasten and give everyone a flat 20% recharge rate improvement, effectively giving everyone unslotted hasten with it's bonus spread out and turned on at all times instead of cyclically". It would've affected everyone, whether they took hasten or not, by basically giving them unslotted hasten. For those who 2 slotted Hasten for recharge it would've been a net loss of about 12% overall recharge rate. But it only would have had a severe negative impact on the people who stack recharge. 4) I offered up the other suggestion, as noted, because the backlash against deleting hasten and applying an autopower +20% recharge buff to everyone. I still firmly believe that hasten is too damned good compared to other pool powers. However people tend to attribute economic values based on what they're seeing rather than what is. If you show that Hasten 'only' gives a 25% recharge rate buff, when attacks are 20% faster than they are, now, it will looks less attractive than a 70% Recharge Rate Buff. And maybe it'll look a little closer to the attractiveness of a 10% damage buff to your whole team, or some other pool power. (Obviously this wouldn't work on the hardcore builders who are going to keep taking Hasten no matter what, but over time it could have an impact on new players, or players who aren't in the hardcore community) As far as ED: Yeah. A Bunch of people left. It was a controversial decision. So was the aggro/target cap implementation. That one also cost CoH some players. But was the game itself made healthier for it? Not the community, 'cause you could argue that in a bunch of different ways. But the actual gameplay itself. The build variety. The playstyle shifts. ED and Target/Aggro caps ultimately made the game more fun than it was, previously. More challenging and engaging, more deep and dangerous. Suddenly the tank had to actually worry about the blaster unintentionally aggroing another group when they're already at the aggro cap and can't taunt the new mob off the Support characters. People had to consider endurance costs, recharge rates, and Arcanatime instead of "LoL, 6-slot Damage!" Honestly... that's a -good- thing. I earnestly don't think people would've played CoH as long as they did without ED, because it encouraged variety of playstyles and goals and tools. +Recharge is so singularly, monolithically, powerful that it narrows down the potential for different styles. Every set now has an "Optimum Attack Chain" that you're supposed to strive for and the only path to it is more recharge. What still gets me is that you're still confused by this. I've explained the thought process 4 or 5 times as of this post. Are you not reading them or is it that you don't understand? 'Cause I've made it about as simple as I can.

You're wrong about permadom. https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Perma At 123% it overlaps by -just- enough to make it perma if you have it on autocast. Every point beyond 123% makes it easier to ensure it never falls off, but 123% is the magicn umber on it's own. The rest of your post, here, is a bunch of ad-hominem attacks, strawmen arguments, and a big ol' either/or fallacy. So I won't be addressing it. 17,355 have Fly 25,729 have Super Jump 23,968 have Super Speed 2,761 have Teleport 53,870 have Hasten. There are 60,348 level 50 characters. The impact of Hasten is outsized even related to travel powers. Twice as many people have Hasten as literally -any- Travel Powers. Also your dig isn't sly. It's just -really- weaksauce. Too far? I disagree. But it would be a nerf to everyone who takes Hasten -and- Stacks Recharge toward Permahasten. Which is a smaller portion of the population and a vocal portion of the Forum Base. I have a feeling if there was an announcement in the Beta Patch Notes about a "Hasten Revamp" that shortened it's recharge bonus and reduced it's duration, and a nearby note that everyone would get a 20% recharge, the Patch Notes Thread would be swamped with "WHY ARE YOU NERFING HASTEN INTO THE GROUND?!" pretty much instantly. Even if, as demonstrated, here, it wouldn't functionally change much of anything for the high end function of Hasten while providing a global buff to everyone who doesn't take Hasten. Both. In a vacuum, either would be fine. In a world where Hasten was an autopower with a lower value, like Quickness, both would be fine. But as a power pick in a game where you can create a feedback loop of power that affects your entire character... it's not so fine. It stands out like a giant, vaguely flaming, thumb where it is massively more valuable than it's contemporaries. That is to say T1 and T2 Power Pool Choices. I earnestly believe that when Sets were introduced Hasten should've been changed into an autopower granting 20% increased recharge, globally. It would still probably be taken to a larger degree than other powers, particularly by Dominators... but it wouldn't have had such an overwhelming impact to builds and build designs to the point where it is largely viewed as nigh-mandatory. This is a problem. There will always be people who say it isn't one because 'it's not hurting anyone' or whatever, but it is a problem. It represents an extreme value disparity that results in 83% of players at 50 tanking this one power. People love to talk about how there should be 'More build variety', but so long as Hasten is around, providing it's feedback loop of recharge rate, that will continue to be the surest path to power. ... But now I think I understand why Paragon Studios -didn't-. And it wasn't because it's no big deal. Or that it's not broken. It's because of the Backlash that would've come from it.

Adjustor I've got you on ignore because you started out at 'Rude' in our encounters and went downhill from there. When I respond to you it's because I am making a posts and the "1+ new replies" thing pops up and when I click it and it shows your post distorted as shit instead of not showing your post at all. And yeah. Recharge has minimal effect on short-recharge powers with 10 seconds or less. Meanwhile shit like Build Up, Mass Holds, Lightning Rods, and shit all -significantly- benefit from having their recharge rate slashed. Lightning Rods starts at 90 seconds. With 2 Recharge IOs it's down to 49. With Hasten it's 35 seconds. That's 14 seconds off the recharge rate, roughly 2/5 of the remaining recharge time. It's almost like you're choosing short-recharge powers specifically to try and minimize the impact... Weird that. Figures don't lie, though, right?

Well, firstly you could get Permahasten by slotting 2 Recharge IOs. That would be +45% Recharge at all times with a brief window of +70%. With recharge slotting, you could get it to completely double stacked, for +70% Recharge, the same as Hasten currently has, and with about the same slotting you'd need for permadom, which is (total) around 120%. This Hasten would provide 45% so you'd need a total of around 75% recharge from slotting and/or other powers (Like Quickness). So, really, builds that already exist wouldn't change at all. So balancing around SOs Hasten would get nerfed to a 25% recharge, -technically- and functionally it would be nerfed to a 45% recharge, but it would be much easier to get Permahasten at the lower value. So out of the gate it would elevate everyone who doesn't have or take hasten slightly, and it would make hasten -appear- to be a much smaller recharge buff than it has been. Which means people who aren't super build saavy or huge on big recharge numbers for optimal attack chains would be more likely to consider other powers by comparison. But for the people who -are- big on the recharge, or who plan to do an 'Optimal Attack Chain' build, it wouldn't change at all. There would be little to no change for months. But over time, I feel like there would be people taking other powers instead of Hasten, even though it didn't -actually- get nerfed. Well. Other than the "Double Stack Start Time".

I posted it on the forums to get feedback. To get some kind of idea of how to change something that is -clearly- overpowered. Like. There's literally no better example of something that is way more powerful than it's contemporaries than Hasten. I don't think there's a single person who could earnestly argue that Punch or Kick is anywhere near as strong as Hasten. Or Aid Self or Aid Other. Certainly not Combat Jumping as iron-hard as people would grasp on -that- power. Instead I've got "It shouldn't change and you're greedy for wanting to change it" or "This is change for change's sake" or "Why would you try to fix something that isn't broken when there's other broken stuff?" and a heaping helping of "LoL R U SRS?! Lemme post some obvious bait or make jokes about you as a person instead of entertaining the idea of offering any kind of actual discussion!" Like holy fucking shit, folks, this one power gives you a 70% Recharge Time Bonus. That affects IT'S OWN RECHARGE TIME. Compare that to any of the other power pool tier 1 and 2 powers and it's painfully obviously stronger than all of them. But there are still people who will argue 'til they're as blue as these forums that it's not OP. That it's perfect how it is. That 83% of level 50 characters using it is -fine- and if we're gonna make any changes we should make all the other power pools have at least one power that is -JUST- as strong to balance it out. It certainly brings Parity, I'll grant you, but it sure as fuck won't Balance anything. And others who admit it's OP but still don't want any changes because they build their characters around this pillar of being OP. It's not change for the sake of change. It's change for the sake of making the "Must Have" power into something less. Either as an inherent for everyone, like Stamina got changed (But no one wants that 'cause it's 50% less total recharge rate) or a much smaller change meant to provide a superficial nerf in order to sway people from always choosing it by reducing the -apparent- bonus (But not the functional one) while elevating all other characters up a bit to make the OPness of this one power stand out a -little- bit less. Yeah, people who build their characters around Hasten are still gonna do it. But I refuse to believe that 83% of level 50 characters are -all- building optimum chains by maxing out their recharge when it's much more likely that a portion of them (Possibly a significant portion) just took hasten because it was the biggest buff in the available pools and they -had- to take at least 2 pool powers.

Cool beans. One of my characters has Permahasten. None of the rest do. About half of them don't even have Hasten 'cause I'm not trying to get optimum attack chains that eschew anything but strong attacks. It's just not important to me. I get that it's important to you, though. Which is why my suggestion went from "Delete Hasten and replace it with a different power, then give everyone a 20% Recharge bonus inherent" to "Let's try defanging the psychological component of Hasten without reducing the power" I got shit for the first one, and I got shit for the second one. People want it to stay perfectly unchanged, by and large. Why? 'Cause nothing can change. The power can't change and the number of people who take it won't change 'cause that would RUIN ALL THE THINGS. It's really demoralizing.

Everyone HAS TO take at least 2 pool powers by level 30. You don't have a Choice unless you're an EAT. Right now, there's one power that is a 70% bonus to Recharge. It's -huge-. There's nothing that can compete with it. But a 25% bonus to recharge...? That's something other stuff could compete with. Unless you're planning a recharge-centric build where you need as much as you can get. Yeah, people who are gonna go Recharge-Heavy are gonna get it and double stack it and continue playing the game like they have. But new players? New Builds? Maybe not.

If 99% of the playerbase was against a change that gave 100% of the playerbase +20% Recharge at all times and made Hasten marginally less powerful for 1 minute before it 'spun up' to full power I'd be STUNNED. In no small part 'cause a lot of people would just be getting a minor buff. And "Why not look"? Because it's not a Zero-Sum game. There's people talking over fixes for underperforming sets. There's people talking over fixes for underperforming ATs. This isn't Rocket Surgery, dude. People can care about more than 1 thing at a time.

Two things: 1) Psychological change. If you've got 20% recharge buff, do you -really- need a click-recharge buff for 25% that recharges 3 minutes later? Sure you do, if you're building a recharge build. But for a lot of people who aren't -specifically- trying to build for recharge it appears less needed on it's face. It even looks like it's been nerfed with a 45% total, before double stacking. 2) It also helps to level the playing field for people who don't take Hasten, bringing the bottom up while not really moving the top very much. See above.

... I made a note about changing the title in the OP. Why are you trying to make a 'thing' of it? The suggestion changed, so so did the title.

Yes. With enough Recharge (Basically Permahasten levels) it'll be a complete overlap, recharging every 60 seconds. It'll be a nerf for the first 60 seconds, then it'll get up to full power and stay there as long as you've either got it autofiring or click it once per minute.

The suggestion as it stands is 3 parts: Reduce Hasten to a 25% Recharge Buff. Add a 20% Recharge Buff to all Players. Reduce Hasten's Cooldown time to 200 seconds. On it's face it's a nerf. Hasten and the auto-grant only give 45% recharge rate. But at 200 seconds you can get Permahasten with 2 Recharge SOs. And actually slotting for recharge allows you to double-stack. Bringing it back to 70%.

And it still would be with the proposed change. With ultimately no real difference to IO builds. But a psychological change that weakens the power without weakening the character, overall.

The playtesters in 2002 through 2004 didn't have IO Set Bonuses to contend with. In a Vaccum, without set bonuses, Hasten is fine. It's about a 20% overall passive recharge bonus like Quickness from Super Reflexes. Only it's not going to have any effect on most melee attack powers outside of it's 2 minute window, and it's really only absurdly long recharge time powers that take full advantage of it. It's only now, with Set Bonuses, that Hasten has become the big bad that it is.

The problem being that pool powers are SUPPOSED to be kinda bad. They fill out your style, rather than define your play experience. They're not supposed to be something huge that you would forgo a primary powerset or even secondary powerset pick to choose. That's why even as "Good" as tough and weave are they're not as good as any Scrapper's defense or resistance toggles. "Buffing the other pools to be good" won't help unless they also provide globally big benefits that would make someone consider not taking Hasten to take one of them, instead. And that's a -huge- leap on the power curve. Particularly since they wouldn't be mutually exclusive. People would just take Hasten -and- three other 'Character ability redefining' powers instead of just Hasten.

The fact that 83% of level 50 characters use Hasten shows that it's either overpowered or all of it's contemporaries are underpowered, Mechano. It's the single most extreme outlier among power pool choices there is. Nearly -everyone- takes Hasten because it's too good to pass up. I disagree that fixing Energy Melee or Regen is 'More Important'. Those powersets have a significantly lower impact on the game's population than Hasten does. Hasten is used by every single archetype, where EM and Regen are used by 3. It's not really comparable.

Yes. He can do X before Y is fixed. Or Z. Or A. He can do shit in any order he and the others choose. Some fixes are easier than others. The change I've offered up is low-hanging fruit. Add +25% Recharge to everyone's 100% baseline Recharge, Reduce the Cooldown of Hasten, Reduce the Recharge Value of Hasten. Compare that to digging through the Pet AI and figuring out which of the three (or if it's all of the three) versions of baseline pet AI needs to be snipped to make the system work (If any of them can even be pulled out...) Plus the -rest- of that spaghetti... Honestly, editing powers themselves is likely the -easiest- part of working on this game because each power is self-contained as a process. Except shit like Fury and Domination where it's actually, like, 6 separate powers working together hidden behind a single power in your UI...

Being rude in response to someone who is rude to you isn't "Ironic" It isn't even unusual. Honestly, it's the -expected- outcome. But go ahead and keep on with the Faux Civility where I'm a 'bad person' for responding to unkindness with anything less than perfect manners.

The Paralysis of Lists is the same in any argument. "We can't fix X until we fix Y." when Y has nothing to do with X. I.E. Y is not a component of X. Also known as the "Zero Sum" game.

Which is why you asked when I would be nerfing Empathy and Spines/Fire. It's the same principle: A Strawman Argument. You picked something that wasn't my position and held it up as my position. He did the same to you. And nah, Shard. You didn't 'simply disagree'. You were insulting and fallacious. That's not a simple disagreement, that's intentional rudeness.

I need Vampires! I'm holding out for Vampires on the edge of the night! And they've gotta be fast And they've gotta be strong And they've gotta give my neck a bite! I need Vampires! I'm holding out for Vampires 'til the morning light! They've gotta be sure And they've gotta be cool And they gotta make me their Wife! Make me their wiiiiiiiiiife!

Turnabout is fair play. But if people keep stuffing words into each others mouths it might become foreplay...

Because the intent is to make Hasten -look- less attractive. To make it less required. By putting it into the 25% increments it becomes a 'Nice Benefit' for some builds, but not -as- big of one, unless you're looking to push Recharge to the point of double stacking it. It creates a psychological separation. "If I've got 25% already, do I really -need- that other 25% when I could instead take X power from Y pool, instead?" The people who desperately cling to the 70% Recharge bonus would retain their benefit without changing anything they're doing. For the extreme buildmonkeys it would even be a 5% haste buff (That largely means nothing thanks to diminishing returns)... There's also the increased end cost if you do double stack it. It's not a big deal but it is marginally less attractive that way. Ah, yes... The "We can't fix anything until we fix everything else" argument. The Paralysis of Lists. Good stuff.

So 3 pages ago, now, I posted an alternative suggestion. Everyone was too busy engaging in Ad Hominem, Strawmen, and other fallacies to notice it, though, so I'll repost it, here: Reduce Hasten to a 25% recharge buff. Reduce the Cooldown to 200 seconds. Add a Global 25% recharge buff to everyone. With 2 recharge IOs Hasten becomes Perma at 25%, with the 25% constant, that's 50%. Like Practiced Brawler, it will be possible to double-stack Hasten, resulting in a net 5% gain at 75% total. But the incentive to do so is lessened, aside from the minmaxers and recharge monkey powersets and archetypes.