Steampunkette

I mean... Except that the cooldowns of all powers are reduced by 14% which is equivalent to a 70% recharge rate increase when regular slotting is taken into account... Like... Did y'all read the third suggestion, yet, or are you still arguing against the first one?

Bonus: Option 3 frees up Autocast for all the current Hasten-Brigade. That means no more "Bind Juggling" for Dominators, Humanform PBs can just put Lightform on Autocast, etc etc etc.

Permadom, under Suggestion 3, would require a total of 92% Global Recharge from all sources instead of 123%. Possible, but expensive. Here's an example build with 100% recharge rate without hasten:

Suggestion number 3: Step 1: Delete Hasten. Replace with a new power which does not affect recharge. Possibly a Burst of Speed type ability with lower damage, or perhaps an enemy-targeted teleport-to in the same vein as Savage Leap. Step 2: Reduce cooldown of all player powers by a flat 14% across the board. This is not a Recharge Rate bonus, and Diminishing Returns does not apply. Exclude powers that are unaffected by recharge rate. (Though what I'd do with them is a whole other thread, entirely...) Step 3: Increase all NPC Health Values by 9% at level 1-20, 19% from 20-27, 24% from 27-34, and 30% after 35. This applies Hasten at full power (I.E. Permahasten) to all builds, and rebalances enemies accordingly... essentially. Keyword: ESSENTIALLY. At low levels it offsets the attack rate increase of a few fast-recharging powers (The biggest outliers would be KO Blow and TWs, but TW needs a balancing pass as it is). At higher levels the heavier attacks with the longer cooldowns require further HP increases to retain the current TTK<TTD ratio. Take Aim for example. Aim has a cooldown of 90 seconds. With an 14% reduction in cooldown it slips down to 77.4 seconds. Two slotting Aim for Recharge Rate brings the cooldown a further 83% (Roughly 41% cooldown reduction) to 31.7 seconds. With Aim under the Hasten Model, 2 slotting for Recharge brings it to 49 seconds and then Hasten takes it to 35.53. However it doesn't -stack- with further Recharge Rate changes. As a static reduction in cooldown it benefits them in a nonlinear manner. This becomes important at the most extreme ends of recharge, as demonstrated by Phantom Army: Phantom Army normally slotted exactly like people slot it now with Hasten removed you'd have a 230% recharge rate. The cooldown would drop from 240 to 206, and that 230% recharge rate bonus (including slotting PA) would bring the cooldown to 62 seconds. But you'd get another pool power choice (Or a different power pool) for your trouble. MAAAAAAATH

That was the original idea. Only transferred into an autopower rather than a slottable full-form, so as to avoid recharge-looping itself and MASSIVE global power boost in favor of a smaller one. Which, of course, would wind up being a Nerf to recharge-centric builds. There's no reasonable way to make Hasten an auto-grant in the form that it's currently in, sadly. Though... fun note about Fitness becoming Inherent? That happened in i19. It came about when the IDF became a thing. So it's not like "Happening late in the game's life" is a real issue for power pool rebalancing. But I am formulating a new idea for a different suggestion, here, it's just requiring a ton of math (Which is why I didn't post, yesterday)

Why bother? I've explained. Why now? Because it wasn't done on Live. What if people leave to the other servers? Any change to any system that isn't a flat buff is going to risk that. Any power that gets removed, or severely altered. Any Archetype that gets short-shifted by some alteration. Sentinel's getting a massive rework. People who love Sentinel as it is, now, are going to get angry and leave. But you don't make the game better or healthier by leaving in massive feedback loops of power and pretending it'll either go away or somehow be fine. You're wrong. And the fact that you're wrong was covered in the first page of this thread. 155,593 players had Hasten between levels 4 and 50. The only Pool Power that is more popular is Flight at 182,678. Third place is Superjump with 129,071. Then Combat Jumping at 93k and Superspeed at 84k. In the "Add Recharge to Swift" thread I initially used that data to try and deflate the idea that Hasten was overrepresented, because while it was the second most used power pool there was, it still represented around 1/8th of the playerbase which wasn't a majority. TheAdjustor pointed out that 83% of level 50s use it. So players who aren't 50 who use Hasten? 102,013. Which still puts them ahead of the total number of Combat Jumpers including 50s. And Superspeeders including 50. And all other power pools at all level ranges except Flight and Superjump. It's a massive outlier in popularity. "Hasten is always taken because it alone is a MUST HAVE" And there it is, folks. That's the problem. The power is simply too damned good. Tell me, Cooltastic, what could we do to, say, the Stealth power that would make you choose it -over- Hasten? What buffs, what changes, what overwhelming power would Stealth need that you choose Stealth but -not- Hasten? Because that's what it would take to make "Buff the other pool powers" a reasonable suggestion. A massive power increase across the board to all the power pools so that Hasten is no longer a "Must Have" You wanna talk about Power Creep? That shit would be Power Dash. Power Mach 1.

Emmert was big on the holy Quintet. Tank, Glass Cannon, Lancer, Support, Control DPS is a thing, absolutely, but it was broken into two segments. The Lancer or Melee DPS and the Glass Cannon or Ranged DPS. With the idea that Casters would have controls to keep themselves alive while Lancers had lesser defenses than Tanks. Meanwhile the Support character could provide heals but also buff you to the nines or ruin the enemies by making it harder for them to hit. And of course Control is all about battlefield denial and locking them down completely. And if you look at those character roles you can certainly see the seeds of the Holy Trinity of WoW or the Holy Quartet of EQ. But it's really, at it's core.... The 5 Man Band of D&D. The Five Man Band is a series of gaming roles that can be fulfilled in different ways by different classes. Sometimes the Tank is the Paladin or the Fighter or the Barbarian or the Wildshaped Druid. Sometimes the Glass Canon is a Sorcerer, a Warlock, or a Wizard. The Lancer can be a Ranger, a Rogue, or a Light Fighter. Clerics, Druids, Wizards, and Bards can play the Support Role. And of course Druids, Wizards, Sorcerers, and some Warlocks can play the Control role. Five Man Banding was the surest way to survive GenCon One-Shots because you covered specific roles that synergized well. Of course it was -absolutely- useless when Gygax pulled out Tomb of Horrors... but still.

Far more likely is: After ED they knew they wouldn't be able to take Hasten apart without a maaaaaaassive backlash.

Incarnate Enemies are designed to have enough ToHit to punch through Softcapped defenses and require 56% to be softcapped to them rather than the typical 45. So it's disingenuous to say that balance went out the window with IOs, since outside of SR using all toggles, autos, and their Tier 9 it's pretty much impossible for an SO-only character to hit 56% defense. Are you done? If you are we can talk like adults. If not I'll just put you on ignore, it's healthier for both of us.

I'm certain it seems like very little gain... to you. If it were determined that "Perma Phantom" and "Perma Dom" were something healthy for the game, those specific powers could be looked at and have their recharge lowered. To rebalance everything around everyone having inherent hasten would be much harder. You'd be rebalancing all the NPCs, leveling values, and then look at the powers and determine if you want to/need to increase the recharge time of essentially every single power to push them out to be harder to get up fast. If we did the delete and add version, a few specific powers would need to be revamped. Inherent Hasten would require a -game- revamp.

You're -way- back in the timeline. Also She, not he. I figured the name and the avatar gave it away, but whatevs. And yes. City of Heroes is a Balanced Game. Not entirely balance between powersets or balance between archetypes, but a rough balance between players and NPCs. That's where the whole "Challenge" aspect of gameplay comes in. However due to certain decisions, the challenge has been stomped into the mud. We can either dig it out and clean it up, which is healthy for a game, or we can just keep walking all over it, which is not healthy for a game. There's a reason DOOM gets -really- boring after you type in IDKFA and IDDQD. It's fun to blast through the levels invincible and with all the ammo and weapons, but it cheapens the victories and when you're finished instantly one-shotting everything you're left bored as hell.

1) Cramming more recharge is futile 'cause you'd be losing 50% recharge if we removed it. You could -try- to make up the loss, but you'd never be able to obtain the same level of optimization... If we removed it entirely. 2) Does kill Perma lots of stuff, yup. Unless there's a rebalance pass around the increased presence and lowered availability of +Recharge. It's something discussed on page 2, I think? Maybe 3... 3) Any change is going to require more balancing work when it involves a power that LITERALLY AFFECTS EVERY OTHER POWER IN THE ENTIRE GAME. Except the handful that are immune to recharge rates, obviousl. I think there are 3?

Megajoule has -kinda- got an understanding of it: It's pretty much impossible to completely remove hasten without doing -anything- to fill at least some of the hole. My initial intention was to do so with a smaller bonus, because the gaping hole it would leave behind requires -some- filling. But that wasn't sufficient, leading to the second suggestion.

The End cost would be closer to 2 than to .26... but it could be done. It just wouldn't mean a whole lot in the end.

If we do the Delete Hasten and shift to 20% global recharge for everyone (Effectively giving everyone unslotted Hasten) the immediate result is the Recharge Meta goes out the window. Recharge will still be a strong mechanic, particularly among set bonuses, but it won't be the end-all-be-all of power. Long term, this would encourage different builds. Different "Optimal Attack Chains" and overall increase the challenge of the game by stripping some of the extreme ends of power away. If we do the "Shift things around" design, very little changes in the short term. In the long term, though, more people who are moving into choosing sets and final builds for characters will run into the 'Smaller gains' appearance, since "Permahasten" just takes you from +20 to +45. And might try something different... It wouldn't be the Optimal Build, but it would at least be variety, which is the spice of life.

Short answer: No. Long answer: The Arachnos Soldier and Widow costume slot was required as an entirely separate setup covering a bunch of different pieces attached to body points that don't always line up right with the standard character creator. Even putting them in the game actually broke the character creation UI to the point where the art department gave the fuck up on fixing the costume slot window so that Soldiers and Widows 'appear' to have the same number of costume slots as everyone else with one of them locked. When in fact they get an extra slot that's off the end of the UI accessible only through /cc commands. The Helmets we got just fine... but almost everything else would require some MASSIVE changes to the way the character creation system works.

Posted in wrong thread...somehow.

IOs weren't put in the game to "Fix" ED. ED was put into the game as preparation for IOs. The current culture of "Six Slot Reds" was unhealthy and caused people to get really frustrated really fast when their attacks missed and their endurance cratered. People had to be prepared for the idea that 6 slotting Damage wasn't the end all be all of how to make a character -work-. People had to be prepared for the idea that sets were coming and they wouldn't be 6 Damage IOs with full set bonuses tied to them. ED was the healthiest improvement to the game. It made people make choices. Particularly around their Blue Bar... But yeah. IOs weren't "Fixing" ED. ED wasn't broken. There's just people who didn't like it 'cause it made their attacks hit less hard and their defenses less powerful.

I disagree. Hami-Os. They used to be a big deal! With Hami-Os, which are basically the precursor to IOs, you could get mix n' matched powers to push ED further while still getting some of the 'other stuff' that you needed but wouldn't have gotten when using only SOs.

Let's not go there, Pax. He doesn't want the change because it would negatively impact him. That's basically why everyone who is against the change is against it: It would ruin the current recharge-centric meta of which they are a part. There's some people who are against it 'cause they're against change, or think that it would be a catastrophic change that pisses off the people who are in that Meta... But yeah. Most people arguing against it are probably part of the recharge meta. And there's -nothing- wrong with that. Being against something because it negatively impacts you, personally, isn't wrong.

Before ED you just slotted for whatever the power gave you the most of. MAYBE an Accuracy with 5 slots of damage, but everyone took Stamina and slotted it with a boatload of endmod. I was there, too. I had 6 slotted Blasters who dealt great damage and ate floor 'cause the tanks couldn't hold aggro. They were different days... Yeah... so... That wasn't a response to you. It was a response to someone who was being condescending so I responded with condescension. Why are you trying to be insulted by something not aimed at you?

No doubt. But they were a new company struggling to get the game built and out the door so they could start making money. Decisions that seemed like no-brainers at the time turned out to have complex reasons that weren't considered when the decision was made. The mistakes they made, in the long run, however, still lead to a pretty great game, for all it's foibles.

Because perceptions guide people to make decisions. People buy the "Economy Box" of laundry detergent because it's 'cheaper' than buying the smaller box. Sure you pay more at the register but you get a lot more detergent so it evens out, right? But they give you a commensurately bigger scoop so that you use more laundry detergent with the big box than the small box and run out at the same time. You spend more total money on the big box thinking it will last you longer, it lasts the same amount of time, so you spend more money. Instead of $6 every 4 weeks you're certain you'll spend $9 every 6 weeks but you wind up spending $9 every 4 weeks. If anyone was arguing for 'Perfect Balance' that might be a worthwhile question to ask. But no one is. Or ever has. So pick up your Strawman off the ground and stop knocking him over. Poor guy. See, that's what -I- thought, but it's just not popular. *Shrug*

1) Yeah, 69k out of 60k. There's a lot of people who combine SS and SJ. *shrug!* I guess if you're already going for CJ and Hasten you might as well, right? 2) The "Ire" is aimed at Hasten because it's the big standout that only becomes unbalancingly powerful when combined with the Set Bonuses. However the Set Bonuses themselves have got a bunch of different gates. The set bonuses are actually pretty well balanced among themselves. But Hasten isn't pretty well balanced among power pools. So while set bonuses are pretty well balanced against each other, this one power interacts with them in a way that unbalances recharge rate. Change 1 power, or change the balance of every set? Rough choice. 3) The Original Post was "Delete Hasten and give everyone a flat 20% recharge rate improvement, effectively giving everyone unslotted hasten with it's bonus spread out and turned on at all times instead of cyclically". It would've affected everyone, whether they took hasten or not, by basically giving them unslotted hasten. For those who 2 slotted Hasten for recharge it would've been a net loss of about 12% overall recharge rate. But it only would have had a severe negative impact on the people who stack recharge. 4) I offered up the other suggestion, as noted, because the backlash against deleting hasten and applying an autopower +20% recharge buff to everyone. I still firmly believe that hasten is too damned good compared to other pool powers. However people tend to attribute economic values based on what they're seeing rather than what is. If you show that Hasten 'only' gives a 25% recharge rate buff, when attacks are 20% faster than they are, now, it will looks less attractive than a 70% Recharge Rate Buff. And maybe it'll look a little closer to the attractiveness of a 10% damage buff to your whole team, or some other pool power. (Obviously this wouldn't work on the hardcore builders who are going to keep taking Hasten no matter what, but over time it could have an impact on new players, or players who aren't in the hardcore community) As far as ED: Yeah. A Bunch of people left. It was a controversial decision. So was the aggro/target cap implementation. That one also cost CoH some players. But was the game itself made healthier for it? Not the community, 'cause you could argue that in a bunch of different ways. But the actual gameplay itself. The build variety. The playstyle shifts. ED and Target/Aggro caps ultimately made the game more fun than it was, previously. More challenging and engaging, more deep and dangerous. Suddenly the tank had to actually worry about the blaster unintentionally aggroing another group when they're already at the aggro cap and can't taunt the new mob off the Support characters. People had to consider endurance costs, recharge rates, and Arcanatime instead of "LoL, 6-slot Damage!" Honestly... that's a -good- thing. I earnestly don't think people would've played CoH as long as they did without ED, because it encouraged variety of playstyles and goals and tools. +Recharge is so singularly, monolithically, powerful that it narrows down the potential for different styles. Every set now has an "Optimum Attack Chain" that you're supposed to strive for and the only path to it is more recharge. What still gets me is that you're still confused by this. I've explained the thought process 4 or 5 times as of this post. Are you not reading them or is it that you don't understand? 'Cause I've made it about as simple as I can.

You're wrong about permadom. https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Perma At 123% it overlaps by -just- enough to make it perma if you have it on autocast. Every point beyond 123% makes it easier to ensure it never falls off, but 123% is the magicn umber on it's own. The rest of your post, here, is a bunch of ad-hominem attacks, strawmen arguments, and a big ol' either/or fallacy. So I won't be addressing it. 17,355 have Fly 25,729 have Super Jump 23,968 have Super Speed 2,761 have Teleport 53,870 have Hasten. There are 60,348 level 50 characters. The impact of Hasten is outsized even related to travel powers. Twice as many people have Hasten as literally -any- Travel Powers. Also your dig isn't sly. It's just -really- weaksauce. Too far? I disagree. But it would be a nerf to everyone who takes Hasten -and- Stacks Recharge toward Permahasten. Which is a smaller portion of the population and a vocal portion of the Forum Base. I have a feeling if there was an announcement in the Beta Patch Notes about a "Hasten Revamp" that shortened it's recharge bonus and reduced it's duration, and a nearby note that everyone would get a 20% recharge, the Patch Notes Thread would be swamped with "WHY ARE YOU NERFING HASTEN INTO THE GROUND?!" pretty much instantly. Even if, as demonstrated, here, it wouldn't functionally change much of anything for the high end function of Hasten while providing a global buff to everyone who doesn't take Hasten. Both. In a vacuum, either would be fine. In a world where Hasten was an autopower with a lower value, like Quickness, both would be fine. But as a power pick in a game where you can create a feedback loop of power that affects your entire character... it's not so fine. It stands out like a giant, vaguely flaming, thumb where it is massively more valuable than it's contemporaries. That is to say T1 and T2 Power Pool Choices. I earnestly believe that when Sets were introduced Hasten should've been changed into an autopower granting 20% increased recharge, globally. It would still probably be taken to a larger degree than other powers, particularly by Dominators... but it wouldn't have had such an overwhelming impact to builds and build designs to the point where it is largely viewed as nigh-mandatory. This is a problem. There will always be people who say it isn't one because 'it's not hurting anyone' or whatever, but it is a problem. It represents an extreme value disparity that results in 83% of players at 50 tanking this one power. People love to talk about how there should be 'More build variety', but so long as Hasten is around, providing it's feedback loop of recharge rate, that will continue to be the surest path to power. ... But now I think I understand why Paragon Studios -didn't-. And it wasn't because it's no big deal. Or that it's not broken. It's because of the Backlash that would've come from it.