Prototech

I agree, I just think 3 is the starting place and to adjust from there, at least at level 50. While leveling most of my attacks don't have three damage because of a lack of slots to go around, with only a couple I six slot asap. I hate missing too, but I heavily abuse inspirations to the point there have been a couple times I've created a temporary shortage on the market and prices skyrocketed. A like (inf?) for you for the constructive conversation! Man inspirations, haven't even thought of factoring those into my 'model'... back to the drawing board.

You need sets for perma uptime on Rage no? But in general I agree with your response. But we could go in circles like that because If I fight reds or enemies with tohit debuffs I may want two acc, but if in a good group of 8 I may need 0 acc etc etc. Point is, especially if you are leveling and maybe soloing, the common wisdom isn't always right, best to analyze your powers and rotations and choose based on that with an understanding of the basics. Sidenote: I hate missing, I'll grab more acc even if it's a theoretical dps loss, that may bias me a bit

yeah fixed, still better

Missed this initially, but I think seeing it as 50 is the wrong way to look at it. It's 20% more damage, which is significant. Depending on the power a second recharge could indeed have a dramatic impact on damage too, but will a second accuracy increase the powers overall damage by 20%? That is extremely unlikely. Sure if the comparison is 2 lvl 25 IOs vs 3 lvl 50 IOs but if you are looking at 2 lvl 50 IOs that is 83.32% enhancement which gets you 272.2 dmg & extra lvl 50 IO will barely get you more than 20 more points of damage! Which is still about 7.5% increase in damage, which is also not insignificant. There is a reason that slotting three SOs/IOs is very much the norm and common practice. Until someone shows the math that an additional accuracy or a recharge would give a bigger increase to damage, that is not going to change. Also, when comparing these values, subtraction is a poor way to do it. The percentage will give a more useful comparison. There is such a thing as opportunity cost. You mentioned accuracy, a better example could be recharge. A second recharge vs a third damage seems a better option in almost any scenario for dps. Accuracy could be a better option as well as you can get more than a 20% increased chance to hit on reds which is more than 20% damage over time. Even better, if you still have end issues leveling to 50 then cost reduction could be your biggest dps gain, change third damage in all powers to end reduction and suddenly you don't have 5-10 second pauses in long fights. Goals are irrelevant here if they are based in flawed assumptions. Edit: meant to also copy post under yours and address both I don't disagree entirely here, just adding caveat. There are too many variables to have just one answer, but that additional recharge will not matter on lower DPA attacks that aren't used as often. The standard is 3 damage and then some other mix of acc/end redux/recharge. That is generally the best way to slot, but there are countless exceptions to that. 3 damage is the starting place(for DPS focused characters) and people should adjust accordingly to fit their playstyle and character needs. Until there is hard data taking into account various common play scenarios to prove the standard is wrong, people are better off using the common way of doing it and adjusting when they need to. Let me try then but a few points first. 1. concerning low DPA attacks - yes obviously if I said anything to suggest all powers are equal in where certain enhancers should go it was not intentional 2. Math... ah this was one of my main points. Those hard math calculations are actually not good things to go by because they don't take practical reality into consideration. Basically you are wrong in the fundamental assumption that the math modeled usually on a per power basis is the best guide. Especially when leveling and slotting as you go, then at 50 its set time anyway. It also doesn't factor in the frequency of hit debuffs, potential end drain. If it does it's at a non end issue level where again... sets. But even with that said, let's do some math. Equal level enemy, base 75% chance to hit. 60 second window. Brute SS Knockout blow at 50% fury at level 50 with 25 IOs (because that's what I have in pines). 3 dam, 1 acc, 1 rec, 1 endcost 433 damage should hit every time and lets assume one endcost will prevent running out in long term which would kill all dps anyway (for this build we are running, some while leveling may need 2!) Recharge now at 19 seconds 3 attacks in 60 seconds = 433x3 = 1299 2 dam, 1 acc, 2 rec, 1 endcost > recharge is now 15 seconds 4 attacks in 60 seconds = 392x4 = 1568 ... ... ... This isn't down to the decimal so I guess you can fault me for that but hopefully this is enough to make you realize that going with some hard math model on dmg enhancers only is just a flawed approach. Feel free to correct me, couldn't make me happier to learn something new. Just don't go into some small technicality or theoretical just for the sake of it. To me for long cooldown hard hitting powers another recharge is absolutely more valuable than a third damage for dps. Edit: You know I will say I just realized more attacks means more end spent... So following my own rule of practical vs theoretical, if this means running out of end and 3 attacks does not (as long as you always have another attack off cooldown to attack at all times) then I'm wrong with this as soon as that end is out. If recovery can keep up with scenario 1 non stop than it's higher long term dps and faster playing/leveling. But looking at end means taking whole build into account and the length of a mission/string of fights... so that's a whole other deeper look that certainly isn't modeled by any hard math that I've seen so far.

Hey man, Totally get it, I have the sickness too when it comes to this game and alts. Now the best advice is to try and get into a group or two at that level, if you find a good sgroup they can actually help you do some power leveling or just be around to break up the slow pace of soloing at that level. I know you said you prefer solo and you could still do that MOST of the time but it's quite easy to join in a group here and there and honestly the coh community is super lenient when it comes to 'performance'. In this game like 1 group in 5 has some issues with it but mostly its very easy to just play and enjoy. For you I can recommend avoiding any groups that get pedantic around what 'roles' they are and how they need a specific type of defender. Best case they are looking for more performance than you are comfortable with, worse case they are a bunch of losers that don't understand the game and will just make the experience terrible for everyone by trying +4 because they have a 'healer'. I'm on everlasting @Prototech, I don't mind if you want to run just some duos to pick up a bit extra XP I'll even carry most of the challenge I have a few characters that can handle x3s solo though I tend to run them -1 when by myself. A lot of players, most better than me, would be willing to do the same to help at a fellow passionate fan of the game. If you truly want to stay solo, the only thing you can do is try to really enjoy the game and worry less about leveling. Even pretend you're at max level already! Once you get to mid thirties you have a real good kit of powers and can be pseudo complete in your build. Just play and enjoy.

Missed this initially, but I think seeing it as 50 is the wrong way to look at it. It's 20% more damage, which is significant. Depending on the power a second recharge could indeed have a dramatic impact on damage too, but will a second accuracy increase the powers overall damage by 20%? That is extremely unlikely. Sure if the comparison is 2 lvl 25 IOs vs 3 lvl 50 IOs but if you are looking at 2 lvl 50 IOs that is 83.32% enhancement which gets you 272.2 dmg & extra lvl 50 IO will barely get you more than 20 more points of damage! I should have used 2 in the example, not sure why I used three. Example is even better with 2.

You're the one who is missing the point. That dude is saying go ahead and slot IOs at level 25 because it gets you in the ballpark of the numbers you'll be getting at 50. At 50 you can do better but it's not worth waiting. Thanks, that's the main point I was making.

That's the thing. Because 2 level 50 IOs can get you almost as good as 3 level 25s, that means you have a free slot to play around with. At that point it's about slotting efficiency and variety. True, in some powers it won't help because they only take one type of enhancer. And you should be focusing on kitting out with sets at 50. But in the mean time, mixing things up by changing out for level 50 IOs where you don't have sets yet can still be helpful. Yeah you're right I hammered to hard on the point, I think both things are true with some nuance.

It does, I was just editing as you replied. You can slot 3 Res lvl 30 Ios and get only slightly better res than if you just slotted 2 lvl 50 IOs You're assuming that slotting 3 level 50 Io's is worthwhile where you can actually slot 2, marginally lower the % bonus vs 3 level 30s, but free up the slots for use elsewhere. But why would you ever slot 50 IOs? You'd have to wait til 47 and then it's pointless. Theoretical math not taking reality into consideration isn't helpful. Slot 25s at 22, grab whatever as you level up that's easy and affordable if you even want to spend the time, then sets at 50. But ok, I see your point. If I was out of slots at 50 and couldn't afford sets yet, I could swap three of something into two 50s and have an extra slot. Fair enough,

Except High Pain Tolerance isn't a great example because it has a fairly low resistance percentage boost to start with. The greater the base level % effect of the power the more you benefit from a 50 io over level 30. A level 50 IO gives a roughly 42% enhancement a level 25 gives a roughly 33% enhancement I don't have exact stats for a 25 IO to hand but level 30 compared to 50 gives: Level 30 Damage IO 34.80% Level 30Defense IO 20.90% Level 30 End/Def IO 21.75% / 13.06% Level 50 Damage IO 42.40% Level 50 Acc/Dam IO 26.5% / 26.5% Purple Damage IO 53% Further details here: That's why it's a perfect example to my point. Your counter doesn't address diminishing returns where the difference shrinks significantly at 2 and then to the point of irrelevance at 3 for many powers. I even say "Unless you only have one IO of a type in a power, the difference between level 25 and 50 IOs is counter intuitively borderline pointless" so if you just have one IO of a type, yes it can be worth going to a higher level IO in some cases. BUT again we are stuck in the theoretical because the noticeable difference even there is between 25 and 50, you can't get 50 until level 47 right so it's irrelevant to practical reality. Once 47 just wait til 50 and get sets.

I think I'll start auto filtering now as I see it but seen so much nonsense on disc and in game it's hard to believe. Other people in this thread are confirming too.

Rule of 5 is really a thing -- but a different thing. You can benefit from at most 5 of any specific set bonus (e.g., you could slot ten different sets that all gave you a 1.5% hp set bonus boost, but you'd only benefit from five of them. However, you could have five 1.5% boosts, and five 1.13% boosts, and benefit from all of those). The person who told you that was probably a bit mixed-up. Just goes to show how the effect of information spreading deteriorates it completely over time.

There is such a thing as opportunity cost. You mentioned accuracy, a better example could be recharge. A second recharge vs a third damage seems a better option in almost any scenario for dps. Accuracy could be a better option as well as you can get more than a 20% increased chance to hit on reds which is more than 20% damage over time. Even better, if you still have end issues leveling to 50 then cost reduction could be your biggest dps gain, change third damage in all powers to end reduction and suddenly you don't have 5-10 second pauses in long fights. Goals are irrelevant here if they are based in flawed assumptions. Edit: meant to also copy post under yours and address both I don't disagree entirely here, just adding caveat.

what is your goal here? What are you hoping to achieve with your post? Original goal was to find out if I was missing something, and if not start a better conversation around IOs than what is most common in game and even on this forum a lot of the time. It's since become a fun conversation about that process of leveling and selecting an enhancement path. Sort of obvious if you read beyond the first post. I feel you are full of yourself. You want to fix the game due to your genius insight. Not a single comment about fixing or changing the game in this entire thread. Not sure where you got your assumptions from but they can't be reasonably drawn from any of my posts. Take your personal issues elsewhere.

Ok ignore most of what you hear, especially if you don't have tons of influence. 1. Powerlevel to 22 through DFB then group SC missions or positron. 2. Hopefully you'll have 1 piece of orange salvage, sell it for 500k. Buy and craft all the level 25 IOs you want. Don't replace them at all until level 50 then start saving and replacing them with sets. Only replace the 25 IOs if you have recipe drops or tons of money, replace them as it's convenient or you have plenty of cash. But even then replacing 25 IOs with highler level IOs is barely worth the TIME it takes to go to university and play around with it. Unless you only have one IO of a type in a power, the difference between level 25 and 50 IOs is counter intuitively borderline pointless. Don't listen to anyone talking about 'different schools of thought' it's all BS. just look at the numbers. Perfect example is High Pain tolerance: 3 level 25 IOs = total of 8.68% res 3 level 50 IOs = total of 8.91% res

Sure, if I find them I craft appropriate sets for bonuses. While leveling, and realy in general, I want to type '/ah' as few times as I can. :) Played plenty, tricked out plenty of characters back in the day. I am one of those players that would never look at an MMO market interface again if I could. :) I would be fine and happy with all recipes being in the workbench and having to get components through focused hunting, for example. I would be fine and happy with all enhancements just dropping, so you knew to farm X to get Y IO even. To re-iterate as well, I just don't _care_ how much inf I spend on doing these things easily w/o have to make a list, leave the base, buy the things and come home to cook...that's just not my thing...I build what I have and use it, making an accounting task in the middle of playtime is not my thing... After playing the game, I get more stuff and I can make more things, repeat. It's all just ephemeral points in pretendy funtime. If I play a character to 50 and I really like it, then I will sit down for a weekend and make a 'final' build. Did that for a half a dozen characters on Live after years of playing, had 30+ 50s. The more sublte point I guess I am trying to make is that while interesting to a degree, gaining that extra % to feel uber just took me a weekend I could have been killing pixels...or leveling the next idea... Yeah sure but that kinda shows why you can go with the simple mindset of just getting cheapo 25s and slot two of each of the type you want, biggest bang for the buck and time. I was never interested in the one % and that was one of my points, I want the 30% and 20% anything else is a waste of time and effort until sets come into play.

All the time, someone told me you could slot 5 in theory just the other day. "Rule of 5" they said as if it was common knowledge. "May not be wort more than 3 unless you're trying to really max something", completely nuts. EDIT: even better now that I realize you pointed out that even 3 makes no sense ESPECIALLY level 50s, beyond common for people to go 3 even at 50. Make no sense unless you have an extra just laying around and an empty slot with nothing else to go into it.

what is your goal here? What are you hoping to achieve with your post? Original goal was to find out if I was missing something, and if not start a better conversation around IOs than what is most common in game and even on this forum a lot of the time. It's since become a fun conversation about that process of leveling and selecting an enhancement path. Sort of obvious if you read beyond the first post.

25s are super cheap and easy to craft.. so essentially those in the know are confirming slot cheap stuff until fifty then go sets... 50s IOs are pointless

I see recommendations in chat all the time about upgrading IOs to 50 when you hit 47.

Fighting above level all the time and getting debuffed all the time so overcapping accuracy seems sensible but point taken. As far as squeezing dps, again you can do so better by lowering recharge and end cost than by adding a third damage IO. This is exactly what I'm talking about, more damage IOs =/= dps after 2 in many if not most cases. You're not wrong, but it's also highly dependent on powersets. Some have better accuracy or give more recharge or recovery, etc. Plus a specific attack may already have a short recharge and reducing it past one recharge enhancement may not be the most efficient. This is also dependent on the character level, generally the lower level the more I slot for accuracy and end redux since all the powerset's tools aren't available. If I six slot an attack while leveling, I'll usually put in 1-2 acc, 1 recharge and 1 end redux, and 2-3 damage. You're not wrong either :). Agreed on all points. Interestingly on weak fast recharge powers specifically recharge IOs are less interesting especially if your rotation is full, I try to skip the weak fast power unless it has important secondary effects all together.

Fighting above level all the time and getting debuffed all the time so overcapping accuracy seems sensible but point taken. As far as squeezing dps, again you can do so better by lowering recharge and end cost than by adding a third damage IO. This is exactly what I'm talking about, more damage IOs =/= dps after 2 in many if not most cases.

Right once sets come in it changes things completely. However so many of the recommendations and builds I see are all about slotting IOs as you level and hit 50... I haven't even looked at sets, hopefully what I've seen from others there actually ends up being the right info, so far on IOs it's been 90% wrong.

Sonic is res no?

Hi community! So I've been making assumptions around IOs based on in game chat and these forums. Now that I've been back for a bit and experimented with the game+pines it seems to me that people have strange ideas around IOs. It's like the most common approach is highly theoretical and doesn't take into account realistic or economic scenarios while leveling. To summarize my own thoughts before getting into it. 1. Just get the lowest level IOs that are of negligible cost to you around level 22-30 (for me this is level 25 IOs) 2. Don't bother upgrading until end game with plenty of inf and even go straight to sets if you can 3. slotting more than 2 of any kind of IO seems like intense diminishing returns, more than 3 is almost always stupid When stacking IOs, whether you have level 25 or 50 IOs seems almost negligible in scale. Especially if you have to spend time gathering inf. This is especially true for low values like your first attack or willpower minor defenses. Perfect example is High Pain tolerance: 3 level 25 IOs = total of 8.68% res 3 level 50 IOs = total of 8.91% res Here is the kicker 2 level 25 IOs = total of 7.79% res You barely gain 1% by going from 2 25s to 3 50s!!!! This goes against so many of the recommendations I've been seeing, seems a lot of people have no clue and so many of the builds I see posted are nuts. Please jump in and educate me here If I'm missing something. Other great example: ANY damage power but let's use Knockout Blow from SS 148 base damage 2 25 damage IOs = 243 dmg 3 50 damage IOs = 295 dmg 50 damage is nothing to sneeze at in this case BUT, what about the free slot I get? I can slot 6 total and would much rather have 2 recharge and 2 accuracy for this heavy hitting power. Hitting twice as often and more accurately is way more valuable than the 50 damage per hit. Am I crazy here? Do most people just not get it or do I not get it?