Hjarki

What I'm getting at that while many of these notions may seem reasonable in a vacuum, Dominators start from zero in both the defense and recharge categories. This means that the slotting on virtually your entire build has to be focused on these two goals long before you can start to worry about issues like proc slotting. Given that, it's reasonable to presume that what you consider a 'decent build' includes defenses that would ordinarily be considered woefully inadequate for the tactics you're using and you're bridging the gap with inspirations/temporary powers/ally buffs/etc. or hoping that your control effects will keep you alive.

Your 'corrected' numbers are damage/activation (and you got Psionic Dart and Call Swarm wrong). The numbers I posted were damage/animation numbers - something you probably should have realized when you discovered that every single number was off by precisely a factor of the power's activation time. In any case, it doesn't really matter because even in your 'corrected' version, they refute the point you're making (albeit less effectively since failure to include the activation time makes them less accurate about a statement of the quality of the T1 attacks). In terms of Envenomed Dagger/Contamination, I already invited you to present the numbers with a model that better reflected their mechanics. Contamination damage is still damage generated by a single target attack, even if it isn't against the primary target. Envenomed Blades is perma-able, so it's not entirely unreasonable to claim that we should count that damage. If you've got a different approach to modeling the behavior of these effects, then present it. I submit that you need to take a step back and stop trying to 'win' an argument you're clearly ill-prepared to even engage in. The goal is not to 'win'. It is to inform - and you're subtracting from that process, not adding to it.

I'm not sure what your objection is here. While I'd probably play Water/Storm as a Storm/Water Defender instead, it's still a top-tier choice amongst Defenders/Corruptors - there are very few builds that even approach it in terms of sheer power.

Slotting Char for damage means you can't slot for it Hold sets, which are incredibly potent. Now, with Dark Blast, an argument could be made for slotting a set like Cloud Senses for the same reason. However, Char can't be a simple drop-in replacement for Dark Blast because the recharge is too long. Much of the problem is that you seem to make all sorts of assumptions without understanding the consequences of where those assumptions lead. It is possible to make a build where you use Char for damage rather than hold. However, it is far from certain that is an optimal solution for what you're trying to accomplish. In the case of basic dps, it certainly isn't. Dark Blast 37.56 Stone Spears 37.55 Charged Bolts 37.55 Power Bolt 37.55 Flares 39.04 Ice Bolt 43.57 Shuriken Throw 54.97 Psionic Dart 42.02 Neutrino Bolt 53.36 Call Swarm 48.92 Thorny Darts 32.12 I'm just pulling the raw numbers. If you've got a decent model for handling Contamination beyond simply using the raw numbers - which is admittedly not ideal - feel free to present it. What I've demonstrated is that your approach does not yield optimal dps. The difference is that I'm presenting a model that can be analyzed and critiqued while you're guessing. Dominators already tend to run much lower defenses than other builds. You can only depend so far on control effects. The 80 DPS is 80 base DPS (unenhanced). Since we're just comparing across sets, it doesn't really matter what the enhancements are as long as they're common to all comparisons. Likewise, the choice of Char isn't relevant to such a comparison since it's common to all Fire/* Dominators. In terms of how to slot Char, that's a judgement call. However, there are a few notes I'd make: As I noted above, you're losing one of your best powers for slotting recharge/defense. Since Dominators are further away from their targets than almost any other AT, this can be a problem. It compromises your ability to use your single target Hold as a Hold. With Fire/Fire, you don't really have a backup plan if the enemy resists your Holds heavily. Slotting the ATO into the ST Hold limits its availability for AE, where you arguably need the +damage more. At the end of the day, pylon times are nice but give you a deceptive view of the utility of dps. Most of your single target damage isn't done against AV/GM - where you're the beneficiary of the full team/league buffs - but against individual enemies in the midst of spawns. Having to prioritize your lowest damage attack in the middle of your AE to get a damage boost for your AE is likely to be counter-productive. Slotting the ATO reduces the damage you're getting from your Hold procs, not just in the sense of eliminating the possibility of another damage-dealing proc but in lowered proc chances on all the other procs slotted into the power. Slotting the ATO forces you to break the set. For most Dominators, this isn't a big deal since you don't need the Ranged Def anyway (in virtually all decent melee-centric Dominator builds I've seen, Winter sets are used for typed rather than going for positionals). For */Fire Dominators, it is a big deal since Ranged Def tends to be your primary form of Defense and the ATO is one of the best places to get in. As for using T1 powers, bear in mind that you're forced to take them anyway, so you've already dedicated a power to them. There's a good chance you also need that power for recharge/defense, so it's not uncommon to slot that power. Given that, why would you stand there doing nothing when you could instead be dealing damage? Even in the most extreme case - the gradient between Flares and Blaze, a half-second of doing nothing to get to your Blaze more quickly doesn't improve your dps. I get the impression that you - and Frosticus - tend to favor a model where you eschew defenses in favor of hoping your controls cover it. I see these Dominators in game all the game and, frankly, they're not all that much to the team because even one extra death tends to be a far greater burden than doing 2% less dps on the final AV/GM fight.

Area Effect - powers that affect multiple targets at once.

There really isn't anything that interferes with a single target rotation in Fire. Everything's long cooldowns, AE or maybe tossing a Hold. Dominators simply don't spend all that much time with their primary set powers unless they're doing AE with them. Why would anyone value 'your experience' given the fundamental lack of understanding you've displayed thus far about the game mechanics? It's certainly not a valid basis for any argument you're attempting to make. Neutrino Bolt has 53.36 dpa. Flares has 39.04 dpa. In most of those rotations, if you were able to use Neutrino Bolt would yield 10% - 15% higher dps for the rotation as a whole. I don't care what 'bar' you're using, that's a significant chunk of damage. Every other non-Epic AT in the game can get recharge, defense or both from primary, secondary or both. Dominators cannot. They must get all of their recharge and defense from pool powers and set bonuses.

A no-Dark Blast rotation might look like: Smite/Gloom/Moonbeam/Midnight Grasp. At 122% (perma-Dom) recharge, this would give you 100.5 + 78.5 + 237.7 / 4.5 * 2.67 + 169.2 = 489 damage with a cycle time dependent on Moonbeam of 20 / 2.22 = 9.01 sec for 54 dps. At perma-Hasten, this would drop to a cycle of 20/2.75 = 7.2727 sec for 67 dps. Which is lower than just running the Dark Blast rotation I listed. Nor is this universally true for T1 Blasts in Dominator sets. For all of them, it really depends on how much recharge you have and your alternatives. Now, the above math isn't quite accurate. It actually overstates the dps you get from the priority list method you're recommending because the simple math can't account for potential conflicts delaying activations. To get a finer picture, we need to sim it. For Fire, we have the result I listed above at 83 dps. Using a priority list: Perma-dom. No Flares priority list drops you to 67 dps. Perma-Hastern. No Flares priority list drops you to 78 dps. Recharge Cap. Priority list is justified here, with the no Flares priority list running 109 dps vs. 97 dps for the Flares-included priority list. So you're correct - if you're intending to play at or near the recharge cap (which is effectively unreachable except with the kind of buffs you'd only experience in a full League). Given all this, I'm forced to ask why you believe differently. The notion of 'rotations' - as opposed to priority lists - is and has been a key element of CoH play since it came out. You're proposing a completely different model at odds with this notion and I'm curious if you have any justification for your beliefs. Neutrino Bolt is a better T1 because it's a higher damage T1. It's also got a slightly slower recharge and more proc opportunities if you're going that route. As a side note, due to the enormous recharge demands imposed on Dominators coupled with the defensive burdens they face, simply throwing away a power pick is often untenable even if it did lead to a higher dps method of play. Note: For support AT, priority lists are far more common because the gaps you're filling with low dpa attacks on a dps AT are instead filled with support activities.

Because there is no negative to knowing the numbers and often a positive. There are plenty of reasons to play */Dark - but maximizing dps is not really one of them. No one is saying what you're trying to do is 'wrong'. There are plenty of players who simply choose sets based on how they look, and that's perfectly fine. There are plenty of players who look for certain abilities because they like their style, and that's perfectly fine. But it's always better to know what the trade-offs you're making are rather ignoring them.

I believe this 'cascading effectiveness' is full power on the first target and (roughly) half power on every other target. So the amount of benefit you personally receive should always be the same (since you can never be the primary target).

The point of such rotations is to better understand the nature of the sets in a objective way, rather than relying on 'feels'. So while you might not use Flares, Dark Blast or Stone Spears, that doesn't actually say anything about their utility for single target damage. For a Fire/* Dominator, all three of those attacks are generally inferior to Char/Ring of Fire (as I noted). However, I excluded these for two reasons: They're common across all builds with that primary. While this does change the balance a bit between sets with a weak T1 (most of them) and those with a strong T1 (such as Radiation), it's not really necessary for a basic comparison. I excluded pool attacks for the same reason. Slotting them as attacks imposes a huge burden on the build. Sets like Gravitational Anchor, Unbreakable Constraint, Basilisk's Gaze, Entomb and Lockdown are all great choices (depending on build). Those are all better choices than your third choice once you've already slotted Apocalypse and Winter's Bite (and, depending on build, Winter's Bite may not be worthwhile). In any case, those 'filler attacks' tend to be necessary if you want to maximize your dps because otherwise you need to slot too many attacks or need too much recharge. */Stone manages to pull it off because it has unusually long activation times. Consider the comparable no-Flares */Fire rotation. This would require +346% recharge to run Incinerate/Fire Blast/Blazing Bolt/Blaze, for 123.8 + 105.4 + 237.7 / 4.5 * 2.67 + 152.4 = 523 damage over 1.848 + 1.452 + 1.188 + 1.33 = 5.818 sec or 90 dps. It's not impossible to hit these numbers, but doing it on an otherwise functional build isn't likely - especially given you're transitioning from an all-Ranged build to one that also needs to function effectively in melee range. If you think you've got a better scheme, then you should outline what it is so we can take a look at what you're doing. As I said, the rotations I posted are the simple ones. A basic rotation tends to be A/B/A/C, but Dominators have unusually long recharges on powers like Sniper attacks so this ends up being A/B/A/C/D. So those (with the exception of the one Earth rotation and the Fire rotation I posted above) are the ones I used. This sort of strategy only works out if you're solo - and tends to be overly convoluted to yield the results it does even when you are. In most situations, the perfect set-piece battle you're imagining is a lot more chaotic and you're going to lose a lot of damage when things don't work out in precisely the order you need them to. In contrast, sets like Earth can simply stand there and inflict large amounts of damage without disrupting the spawn or requiring all that dancing around. As I noted above, the reason we work out a "best" attack chain is so that we can get away from the sort of "my team is the best!" comparisons you're talking about. As I pointed out in the post, I don't have a definitive answer for what the "best" attack chain is for every Dominator Assault set. But if you're going to claim that your particular attack chain is better, it's helpful to know details about that attack chain beyond "I don't use Dark Blast".

Like most defensively-oriented sets, Electric Affinity tends to work better on Masterminds than other AT. The fundamental issue is that in most content, your teammates will not really need your defensive support to succeed and even if they do, it may not be the right kind of defense that they need. Electric Affinity is also a set that doesn't get much payoff from the Defender version. Many of the best effects are the same scale across all AT and many of the rest tend to fall into the 'too little to matter' or 'too big to matter' range. A Mastermind with EA is already healing superstar; ramping them up to Defender levels is just superfluous. EA also pairs very poorly with Blast sets because it's such a 'busy' set. Not only are you constantly throwing a variety of effects from the set, but you need to do so to keep your stacks up. This effectively reduces your ability to deal damage. The bubble as a click rather than a toggle further limits what you can do - while other people are leaping straight into battle or dropping massive debuffs, you're just putting up a bubble that you're probably the only one who cares about.

A Dark rotation might be Dark Blast/Midnight Grasp/Dark Blast/Smite/Moonbeam. This would be 1.188 * 2 + 2.244 + 1.188 + 1.33 = 7.138 sec requiring +244% recharge for a total of 44.61 * 2 + 100.5 + 169.2 + 237.7 / 4.5 * 2.67 = 500 damage or 70 dps. FIre's rotation is basically Flares/Fire Blast/Flares/Blaze with Blazing Bolt used opportunistically. In practice, this ends up being something like Flares/Fire Blast/Flares/Blaze/Blazing Bolt/Fire Blast/Flares/Blaze. That would be 1.188 * 2 + 1.452 * 2 + 1.188 * 2 + 1.33 = 8.986 sec requiring +161% recharge for a total of 46.37 * 2 + 105.4 * 2 + 152.4 * 2 + 237.7 / 4.5 * 2.67 = 749 damage or 83 dps. A Radiation rotation might be Neutrino Bolt/Devastating Blow/Neutrino Bolt/Contaminated Strike/Proton Volley. This would be 1.188 * 2 + 2.904 + 1.056 + 1.33 = 7.666 sec requiring +319% recharge for a total of 63.4 * 2 + 258 + 120.7 + 237.7 / 4.5 * 2.67 = 647 damage or 84 dps. A Stone rotation might be Stone Spears/Heavy Mallet/Stone Spears/Hurl Boulder/Seismic Smash. This would be 1.188 * 2 + 1.848 + 1.716 + 1.716 = 7.656 sec requiring +161% recharge for a total of 44.61 * 2 + 169.2 + 101.8 + 218.3 = 578 damage or 75 dps. However, Stone has two PBAoE (with KB no less) and a damage aura, making it dramatically better than any set except Martial for AE. If you go up to +270% recharge, you've got Stone Mallet/Heavy Mallet/Hurl Boulder/Seismic Smash, which yields 1.848 + 1.848 + 1.716 + 1.716 = 7.128 sec for a total of 100.5 + 169.2 + 101.8 + 218.3 = 590 damage or 83 dps. Now, I can't analyze every possible rotation for every possible set, but the above are the 'basic' rotations. In theory, you could replace some of those T1 attacks with Char/Ring of Fire, but this would require slotting them as damage (which is almost certainly not what you want to do). I also don't include powers like Toxic Dart or Energy Transfer which could bump the above numbers up a bit - doing every possible rotation for every Dominator set is a project better suited to a community (or at least someone willing to take the time to write the code) than an individual responding to a post. Lastly, I tend to consider all Dominator Assault sets except Fire 'melee-centric'. Fire is the only Dominator set that both has a high dps non-Sniper attack and lacks a high dps melee attack (technically, Incinerate is better than Flares but the slight increase in dps is rarely going to be worth the enormous stress it places on your build to move from all ranged to 'melee for this one not particularly inspiring attack'.) Almost everything you're talking about has little to do with Dark Assault. In terms of AE, I'd rate three sets (Ice, Martial, Stone) as 'strong' and the rest of them as 'not strong'. Ice, Martial and Stone all have multiple AE they can use while fighting in melee range. The other sets tend to split their AE between narrow arc ranged cones and PBAoE, which are fundamentally incompatible. In melee range, that 20/30 degree arc is rarely going to catch more than one or two targets - even if you're willing and able to play 'pop up' games. You can't realistically dance between 70 yards out and melee range to rotate between the two attacks. So you really end up with an either-or scenario where you choose either your PBAoE or your Cone (and it's almost always your PBAoE since Dominator sets, in general, operate in melee range). In any case, I wasn't claiming that Dark Assault was unplayable. I was pointing out that, compared to other sets, it's generally going to be lower damage.

I don't believe the Scrapper's Burn can crit. There's also the issue that Burn is an additional AE for the typically AE-lite Stalker sets.

The proc chance on initial hit is based on the 25s recharge of Burn (adjusted by any internal recharge for the power). The proc chance on the pseudo-pet is based on 10s. So if you have no recharge slotted into Burn, you should expect it to proc 2.5x on the initial hit as opposed to the following DoT.

Well, my preference would be for Fire/Earth since it solves some of the issues with Hot Feet via Mud Pots and if you're going for a pure AE farm-style build, might as well go all in. With that in mind, I don't tend to view Fire as a particularly good primary for a Dominator because you tend to just end up making a gimpy Scrapper.

My thoughts on sets mentioned so far: Fire is a primarily ranged set - to the point where you probably don't want the melee/pbaoe abilities at all. This makes it the preferred set for 'control-centric' Dominators - players who are leveraging Domination to lock down spawns. However, it is very late-blooming - you don't even complete your single target rotation until level 38. Energy. I'm not a big fan of this set. It's got a mix of melee/ranged and never really does either particularly well. Radiation. This is arguably the strongest ST damage of any set. However, it is a melee-centric set, making the Cone AE relatively useless and its PBAoE isn't one of the better ones. It does have a self-heal, which can come in handy. Dark. I'd say this is defensively the strongest set but offensively the weakest. Normally, this puts it low on the totem pole since ST damage is what you really need from your Assault set. Earth. This another melee-centric set, albeit one with stronger AE than Radiation. It also has a damage aura, which is handy for 'farm' builds designed to just grind through large spawns. Fire Control itself is... problematic. Hot Feet + Bonfire give it great AE performance, but Hot Feet especially can be very disruptive - it tends to scatter spawns rather than concentrate them. Of your preferred options, I'd probably go with Fire/Rad.

Ordinarily, Burn has two components: An initial hit. This uses the standard recharge/area formulas and will have a chance to proc per target as normal. A pseudo-pet. This uses the pseudo-pet proc chances, but doesn't last long enough to get a second proc chance. Any sort of buffs, pet summons, etc. will not have any impact from this portion. However, the Assassin's Mark 'Chance to Build Up' isn't actually a proc. It's a global effect that gives all of your Stalkers powers a 5% chance to reset the recharge on Build Up. It doesn't matter where you slot it. I believe - but am not entirely sure - that it is confined to primary damage-dealing powers (i.e. no secondary or pool/epic powers) and the number of targets is irrelevant. I haven't seen any comprehensive testing on it, though.

Strangler: Hold sets are generally strong, so this is probably a poor place to seat the ATO. Flares: Your ST rotation isn’t closed, so you probably need to slot this (since you’re forced to take it anyway). Roots: This is primarily a damage-dealing power. Dominating Grasp isn’t a particular good set for your purposes since it has neither recharge nor Ranged def. Hover/Fly: You can save a slot by ditching the Slow Resistance and shift the KB resistance into Fly. If you’re getting hit with Slow effects, you have a lot more to be worried about than the Slow itself. Fire Blast: The 6th Apocalypse does little for you (Psi Defense well below soft cap). Even a Toxic damage proc would work better here. Tough: The HO is unnecessary. Aegis and Gladiator’s Armor 2-set bonuses aren’t fantastically useful, but they’re better than nothing. I’m not sure you use a stray Resistance IO from Aegis. Vines: Even with all those procs, this isn’t going to do all that much damage. You’d be much better off spending the slots in Fire Breath. Afterburner: You really don’t need additional Flight speed here. Maneuvers: I go with 4-set on LotG sometimes, but with 3 slots I’d probably just grab the 2-set for S/L Resist from one of the other Defense sets. Carrion Creepers: I’m not entirely sure on the need for accuracy in this power (I believe it can do out). Slotting recharge would be helpful, though. Tactics: Throwing some hit enhancements in here would push up your Blazing Bolt damage a tad. Sting of the Manticore: Another situation where tthe 6-set doesn’t get you much. You’re nowhere near the Toxic/Psi hard-cap, so taking a trifle less damage from an uncommon source isn’t going to benefit you much. Blaze: Winter sets are great if you’re building for positionals. But you aren’t, so why spend the influence? Rain of Fire: Unless something has changed, procs in Rains aren’t all that great. Fireball: Another unnecessary 6-slot. Fire Shield: This just puzzles me. I can’t figure out why you’re 6-slotting this. You absolutely don’t need that much enhancement in categories like Recharge and the set bonuses aren’t all that impressive. Sprint: Celerity is almost universal here Health: I like to add Numina’s to the mix, but it’s probably not strictly necessary. Stamina: Power Transfer also goes well here. Overall, I think your recharge and your Ranged Def are both too low. You get one +10% bonus from the 6-slot Dominator set. You’ve got two more from CP and Apocalypse. You can have 5 total, and usually the control sets are the best. You’re one short on LoTG and there are plenty of defensive pool powers that are possible choices. Basilisk’s Gaze 4-slot is a cheap source of +7.5% recharge (and +1.25% Ranged Def). 6-slot Artillery gives 4%+ Ranged def. 2-slot BotZ gives +1.25% Ranged Def as well. For comparison, my Plant/Fire/Cold: There are a number of design decisions - most notably the lack of Hasten - that tend to be peculiarities of my own. But a lot of what I'm doing with sets should help you hit the targets you're looking for.

Well, the basic principle is you Force Feedback everything and have a lot of recharge. With that in mind, I believe this works better as a Defender since you can hit much better defensive totals and the damage from Storm Summoning is the same either way. Without a (reasonable) way to hit the damage cap, you're not going to do all that much more damage with Water Blast and you'll lose some -resist debuffing from Storm. You should also be aware that Storm Summoning builds without a way to Immobilize and -fly enemies can find such opponents problematic due to the heavy emphasis on ground target fields.

This is more of an organizational issue than anything else. You can put together a decent group with all support set AT, but you tend to run into scaling problems because you're dependent on a lot of pet damage. I think it works well on Masterminds. Indeed, this is generally true of 'healing sets' - they work well for Masterminds and somewhat poorly for other AT because there's no guarantee your buffs/heals will have any meaningful impact on some arbitrary ally. When you bring your own allies, you know precisely how much healing/buffing they'll need and anything you give the rest of your group is simply gravy.

I'm sure you will be accepted - people tend to bring anyone along. Useful is another thing entirely. Against a single hard target, Illusion is fine. Your Phantom Army will happily pound away. Storm is more problematic. Many AV will simply run out of Freezing Rain and run away from the Tornado (which will also take them out of range of your static Lightning Storm). This makes playing Storm without a ST Immobilize on a Controller problematic. Virtually your entire secondary can simply be negated by an AV who likes to move around. It also makes fighting that AV a nuisance for all the melee in group. Against large spawns, it's even worse. The primary tactic for dealing with them is to condense the spawn and then use AE abilities. However, almost everything you do fights against that 'condense' process. Your Phantom Army will pull things out and tank them. Your Tornado will cause enemies to run away. Enemies will try to escape your Freezing Rain. In some groups, your Illusion/Storm will actually be 'negative damage' - if you had just stayed at zone and not contributed at all, the mission would have gone faster because you weren't interfering with everyone else's ability to deal damage. This is less of a problem if you simply go off on your own parallel path for most of the mission. However, Ill/Storm isn't very good at dealing AE damage, so this is problematic as well. You'll eventually kill a spawn, but it will take you a lot longer than almost any other (decent) build. With that in mind, this is primarily an issue with being incompatible with melee. If you're an group entirely comprised of Controllers/Masterminds (and, to some extent, Defenders/Corruptors), then you can play a useful role because they're not so reliant on tightly packed spawns.

+100% damage on your ultimate every time it's up is about 50% more damage. Since the rapidly recharging ultimates are really the only advantage Sentinels have over other AT, I'd call this a pretty big deal. The Sentinel-with-Aim is going to be competitive (aside from target caps) vs. the Blaster for sustained AE dps. The Sentinel-without-Aim is not - and they're not going to be competitive with any other style of damage either.

There really has been a bifurcation between people who are simply trying to get an objective gauge of dps and people who are actually competing on pylons. Both are certainly reasonable approaches, but we shouldn't confuse the two. As noted, pet-based classes have some enormous advantages that don't tend to exist in the game at all. But even more conventional builds like TW/Bio don't turn in times really reflective of their effectiveness - the wind-up time of Titan Weapons is (mostly) meaningless on a pylon but hugely important in actual play.

On a Blaster/Defender/Corruptor, not having Aim is manageable. On a Sentinel, it's crippling because you use it before every ultimate. So that's Aim + Gaussian's + Ultimate for massive damage every spawn.

I tend to think "why play /Cold when you could play /Storm?". The two power sets are very similar in many ways, but Storm brings a lot more damage. However, Cold does complement Dark relatively well. The shields will keep the Umbra Beast active while the debuffing will add a bit of damage.