Kanil

what are you talking about? where did anyone say that? you're off on a weird tangent puttin words in people's mouths and makin strange assumptions about build preferences. i don't really get the implication at all and given im one of the fellas who'd like to see some numbers i don't really get the point of puttin words in my mouth besides fulfillin this weird axe you seem to want to grind with "rech and def building" what am i missin here edit: damnit, forgot again: obligatory demand for toggle full auto

i'm saying 'if they say it's the default pick for builds to invalidate parts of the game in terms of build variety eradication and what's been observed', show me the receipts - my stance is the same as lax's in terms of how the change doesn't really positively affect things in increasing diversity or power pick variety or build variety. if they can show 'hey, every build takes this because it's good' then sure, that tracks with the logic. so far the presented defense is 'it's overpowered because there's no reason not to pick it' and 'it invalidates intended designs'. the former should theoretically have data in the sense of hard numbers that can be used to evaluate how much value folks put into that, even if it's a dumb strawman to equate it in a 1:1 fashion in terms of judgement of power. 'is it disruptive to build diversity in the playerbase?' - it's something that is observable with data. the second point is a bit strange since as stated above, you can pretty much can just take clarion and party hardy even as a casual player in the sense of disengaging with the mez mechanics as stated reasoning wise. findin' unique and weird combinations of things that are powerful in a way where you can break limits and just go 'damn that's sick' seems like a thing to encourage rather than forcing folks into the def/rech single build hole since that's what more or less works - you want to have those "spice" picks that let folks rock and roll in a way that inspires other players, y'know? origin pools seem liked they're designed to be those "spice" picks since you can only have one at a time and they're thematic with "big" effects in the t5s especially. why not have a reason to bust out of the shell besides 'haha i know it sucks buuuut'? also since im bothering to post more than a little bit in a dev thread here's the obligatory demand for toggle full auto edit: also the effort of readin through these threads with idiots like me postin it up combined with the effort to nerf the power in the first place seems like such a hassle, lol

you have hard numbers on power picks, right? 'cuz i wanna know what the hard numbers on RoP picks vs. other origin pool T5s to where 'this is overpowered and the default pick to invalidate the game as a norm build-wise' comes from when it comes to just how many people actually pick RoP as a whole, esp. separated between 'squishy' chars that would take it what's the public perception on those picks in the sense of 'hey it's arguable how strong this is, idk man' that's shown by the power pick numbers? why make powers that people are discouraged to pick and invest in? there's always an element of effort that seems strange to me about this kinda stuff when it comes to that.

its one of those things where gloom/dark oblit is just way better than any of its competing options for ST with some AOE as a bonus- without gloom the ST damage on widows is lower than fortunatas with gloom by a lot and that bothers me too much, haha id be curious to see how much adding electrifying fences and the cone from mu would shake things up though

rad/ninja/mace blaster w/ def amplifier using t3 muscle/clarion radial/assault (off) avg: 5m51s times: i said it before in the pylon thread, but the 'weak' times on this set really bother me for blapping purposes - even with the additional help of a defense amp there are still deaths and the times are still overall just on the 'good but not great' side which feels gross as a blaster with that kind of survivability i dunno, it's.. annoying. crit strikes very much puts scrappers in a very solid and clean area for their role, which is nice - it's a thing you see missed a lot in buildmaking/concepting where it's disregarded entirely when it's basically the thing that makes scrappers outperform stalkers for crowd clearing. having a power that reliably procs it is such a gamechanger. it's very notable especially on things like DB where being able to do crit strikes SS->typhoons edge over and over and over with the BF damage bonus makes a huge difference in output overall

it's definitely likely it would be better to swap to moonbeam but i want ball lightning to have a second pbaoe/aoe for extremely fast AOEing (see: clear times in trapdoor). GIS crit strikes is also important in live play because it lets you much more likely have crit strikes on command for crit frozen aura/ball lightning for AOE-melting - in a team/fast paced setting you can ignore it and just use faster attacks but if you're taking lead or taking care of crowds having that kind of firepower is really important. realized i don't think i posted this char either so cranked out some times with them. there's a kind of.. 'meme' around DB stalker to where folks assume it has better firepower than DB scrapper because of the insanely high DPA string (AS-abs-ss-abs) combined with assassin's mark, but in my own playing of the chars (since db is one of my favs) i've never really 'felt' it - the burst damage is certainly significantly higher bc of AS but in AV busting it always felt a lot worse. figured i'd put some numbers to it, and here's what i got: db/bio/experimentation (adrenal booster) stalker t4 core muscle,ageless,assault (off )t3 degen core times: avg: 1m37s there's an interesting element to where it's much more stable than db/bio scrapper in terms of results (all within the 1m30-1m40ish range vs possibly ranging up to 2m) but i wanted to do a direct comparison, so ran some more scrapper testing too. db/bio scrapper t4 core muscle,ageless,assault (off )t3 degen core times: avg: 1m37s huh, what the fuck well, it's a smaller sample because i've seen db/bio get sub1m and over 2m so lol

realized i never actually like, wrote down times for my ice/bio/mu scrapper so yeah. the ice/fire/soul has me curious, so i tested it out. kind of disappointing results but also, Eh ice melee/bio/mu (zapp + ball lightning) t4 core muscle, core degen, core ageless, hybrid assault (off) times: avg: 1m36s decidedly average for bio armor scrapping, but has a cute thing where frozen aura is somehow i think my best ST option in rotation instead of ice sword. so ti goes: GIS (crit strikes)->freezing touch->zapp->GIS->freezing touch->frozen aura

rad/ninja/mace blaster t4 core muscle/ageless/core degen/core assault (off) w/ def amplifier(sigh) times: avg: 1m31s string is GD->snipe->choking powder->cosmic blast (or whatever the slow as hell move is called)->sting of the wasp, achilles/fury slotted in GD and decimation build up chance slotted in cosmic blast idk how i feel about this char still, it's annoying how much 'extra' stuff you gotta do vs just playin to make em go wild

speaking of fortunatas, here's their extremely-worse counterpart: night widows! turns out not having any crit power beyond hides and have a 'worse' spin and no shockwave/other claw AOEs besides eviscerate really neuters them in the AOE department. what's annoying is that they're also worse or equal in the ST department too, with a chain that mostly requires being in melee range... it's quite annoying how bad they are comparatively to the quite overall top tier fortunatas! on the plus side, this lets me headcanon the char concept decently in terms of power so that's cute i guess night widow/soul avg: 7m1s i'm not even sure what exactly is causing the large deviations in time - possibly evisceration luck w/ gathering groups of enemies?

holy shit thats some loooow times for ice moonbeam really does some dang work. i wonder how badly the proc nerfs will affect its perf postpatch.

a lot of it is being able to alternate psychic wail and mass confuse leveraged with psychic tornado for force feedback alongside abusing follow up 2 stacks -> dark oblit->spin

psi/ena/fire scrapper - a rare non-bio scrapper for me! my actual first char to hit 50, revamped in the test server to try and maximize their performance. avg: 6m30s hilariously consistent despite the random insight nature of psi melee. one of the weirder parts of the way psi melee works in insight seems to have little effect on the actual AOE portions of the damage. it's interesting, but it makes sense after multiple runs - the burst damage you are doing is more important than the added DOT from mass levitate or psi blade sweep. honestly, i thought mass levitate did more damage so i'm kind of surprised how often it fails to like, kill enemies even with crits? theoretically it should be doing heinous damage all procced out but it seems to constantly disappoint and really prolong fights. it's strange! anyways. psi melee is overall one of those sets that sits in an awkward spot. i should test this with bio for a stronger comparison point between the other sets but there's nothing really standout here that i'm noticing in terms of performance from that part. energy aura's DDR and layering made things really a breeze when clearing in terms of target priority though - didn't have to spend any time focusing tarantula mistresses because they barely did jack squat to the def on the char. so, that was a nice change of pace.

oh, is also the thread where i ask for full auto to hit 16 enemies and have a cone that isn't 20 degrees (lmao) because that's what i'd like to ask as well for a change to that point - playin a bit with the set the flow is like, better but overall it's just... still full auto? the power doesn't feel that different ultimately. it's strange because you know, a 4s->2s change in animation time is a giant DPA increase and a pretty huge change but the overall kinda weak and uh, "narrow" feeling of the power is maintained. no idea if that's on purpose or not but yeah. just using it in small spaces sucks total ass still for those reasons - the poor damage, the poor area of effect that makes it awkward to use on anything that isn't specifically like 30+ yards away... there's a lot goin' on with the power that just makes it ultimately feel bad. the occam's razor application of 'hey this nuke should be friendly to use like every other nuke' doesn't seem too far out - it's not like AR is really full of these outstanding wild powers or anything.

The inter-dimensional Katana and Bow thief has finally be caught and brought to justice! (fixed Katanas and Bows frequently being invisible to other players) Titan Weapons (All versions): Fixed a bug with some Titan Weapon powers starting Momentum too early, most notably Crushing Blow hip hip hooray

ya just can't beat the appeal of beating up nazis in caves, i guess anyways, decided to try and run some of my admittedly weak blasters. death is unfortunately still super, super common on them. this is more a venting post than anything because it wasn't really useful as a scope of comparison because these chars just die. the only thing i really grasped is just how drastically different having aim+BU and a nuke vs only having BU +nuke is in terms of survival and the "kill them before they kill me" buildset, which should already be pretty obvious. like, across maybe 50+ attempts overall i've never managed to complete a single one, haha. something inevitably goes wrong and i just die soooo, i decided to use a defensive amplifier to see if that mez protect does anything stabilize the results. bad news: it doesn't! despite starting with near softcapped s/l from the scorp shield, AND the bonus 5% def from defensive amplifier the poor chars still just explode like paper. dp/tac arrow/scorp shield + defensive avg: death (only 2 real results out of 5 attempts, not enough data) AR/time/scorp shield avg: death (only deaths) beam/time/scorp shield avg: 5m28s

staff/bio/experimentation (adrenal booster picked) avg: 8m45s i've posted the sentiment before, but i often times wonder where people get the idea that staff "has good aoe" besides the fact that it has a bunch of bad aoe powers. this is the only melee char i've tested that regularly dies on this. it's specifically related to not being able to kill tarantula mistresses fast enough due to the looooooooooooong ticks of the AOEs so any time there's more than one the char explodes from a lack of def and DDR ill/pain/scorp controller

honestly, you're overthinking it - its a similar deal to pylon testing for why some folks are OK with using judgement and not. using stuff that drastically affects dmg or cleartime adds in too much of a fuzziness factor to the comparison points between powersets - same deal as hybrids bein on/off etc. especially in the scope of a full mission where those things get even more variable. the most realistic view in scope of going "no holds barred" includes huffing insps and just going buckwild but at that point it's more of a race and not really generating that much valuable data for comparison points. i don't really give a shit about rules lawyering results or anything, its just how i measure my own chars power levels to see build effectiveness. its interesting to see results for stuff like elm where the scope of a char really pushing the limits even w defensive insps can clear at x rate so if you wanna post clear times go nuts my dude cuz i just want dataaaaa Show me your power levels

mender ramiels arc isnt incarnate content so you only get the +1 boost from it as per "normal" 50 content

it's meant to be in conjunction with pylon testing for hard sustained ST DPS, which is why i mentioned that in the OP. however, the combination of the amount of frequent bosses and an EB at the end actually makes a massive difference for clearing times so while it leans to AOE it isn't strictly aoe-only for the reasons ratch mentioned. a good example is the dark/fire corr - it actually blazes through the mission relatively quickly but upon reaching the AV, but once getting to trapdoor it takes a bunch of extra time to get him down. it matters a lot. so, it's not quite fully an "aoe DPS" test either. it's much more evocative of real mission parameters which are naturally AOE focused because the majority of content structure is beating up groups of enemies and not AVs. i'd also argue it's not an aoe DPS test either because it's not sustained but at the same time that kinda falls into the same trap of how realistically sustained aoe DPS isn't really goign to matter vs. the actual expression of content this is meant to mirror since initial aoe burst damage and openings between groups/downtimes between groups are all accounted for as part of this and massive parts of real play also, trapdoor can only be an EB anyways lol stj/ena/fire stalker avg: 6m31s

broadsword/bio/weapon mastery (lmao) overall happy with my big brain respec into having target drone and explosive shuriken together since proc builds generally tend to lack accuracy/tohit

i put in a brief description - not sure how detailed i should get into getting the mission, haha. anyways, also added a ranking sorting and average times for my own results, haha.

so, i've been hanging on making this thread until vids were unbanned because a lot it is "source: trust me bro" and there are factors that could be observed in terms of how folks handle clearing through maps, buuut i've been curious about this stuff for awhile in terms of comparing results with other folks. this is also a place to encourage me to keep better record of this because i love hitting pylons and doin' this just for fun, haha. what is the trapdoor test? it's running mender ramiel's "defeat trapdoor" mission at +4x8. this is the second mission in the "power overwhelming" arc found in ouroboros. specifically it is the second mission in mender ramiel's chain after talking to positron or lord recluse and the "view your future" mission. it's looking for completed builds with incarnates in and similar rules to pylon testing where you don't use hybrid active nor lore pets - only destiny and yellow insps for the blinds that the arachnos do when it comes up. you kill everything up to trapdoor except the popup turrets (this favors ranged by a lot to run off to the sides) and then waste trapdoor. timer starts when you self-buff w/ destiny or whatever and ends when trapdoor turns blue. note: do NOT click trapdoor or else the mission will complete and you will lose it - part of the good parts of the test is that it's insanely easy to get and reset! if you have mender ramiel as a regular contact, you can ouroboros portal out and then just reset the mission normally. if you are doing it as part of an ouro mission, you will have to log out of the char to reset it. why trapdoor? it has a good combination for testing parameters in terms of accounting for issues that you will come across at lvl50 and being a very straightforward map that has good enemy grouping and very, very simple layouts making runs simple and clean while still accounting for taunt auras/how diff powersets generate runners. in terms of the spread of enemies and what they do. the combination of arachnos having a bunch of asshole things (include holds, -end, blind, -def, etc) and council mostly having their standard s/l loadout, means you get a realistic measure of defensive power. it's effectively a way to measure a build's general clearing power in a mission rather than raw ST DPS. when combined with pylon tests it can be used get a general ideal of the overall firepower of high end builds i've made. results that i've recorded: rankings based on averages: PLAYLIST OF RECORDED RUNS HERE: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRcxfxypPPGjsGMnEwDzswMxGqKDniZcl postnerf tw/bio scrapper (crit strikes in AoD) avg: 5m38s postnerf tw/bio scrapper (crit strikes in FT) avg: 5m33s postnerf tw/bio brute avg: 5m59s fire/bio/fire scrapper (crit strikes in cremate) avg: 5m1s fire/bio/fire scrapper (crit strikes in GFS) avg: 4m52s battle axe/bio/phys scrapper avg:5m29s kat/bio scrapper avg: 5m16s db/bio scrapper avg:5m28s ice/bio/mu scrapper avg: 4m47s EM/bio/fire scrapper avg:5m45s EM/bio/mu scrapper avg:5m25s rad/bio/fire scrapper (all in on procs, bad build with like 22% s/l def) avg: 4m38s fire/time/dark corr avg: 6m11s fortunata/soul avg: 4m42s bio/ss/mu tank (doublerage active from the start) avg:4m51s broadsword/bio/weapon mastery (lmao) scrapper avg (redraw off): 5m32s stj/ena/fire stalker avg: 6m31s

yep, this has been an issue since the open beta with the changes. it's why none of the old strings with crushing blow as it's starter work as well because it wasn't like this before. it's likely related to whatever caused crushing blow to go from a 4s anim time without momentum to a proper 2s one, but yeah. it's mad annoying.

swapped to dark/fire/fire on this dom because i was really hating not having aoes. having a much more fun time in live play, but man... the loss in ST damage is really notable just from losing out on sleet, haha. times with same stats as before: t3 core degen, assault radiil (off), t4 muscle core ageless core dog out, started with melt armor-> haunt-> build up-> rain of fire same string as before, blaze->blazing bolt->hold->sometimes fire blast times: 2m 2m3s 2m10s 2m5s 2m2s 2m 2m yeah... i dunno, the time loss is so huge. i was getting sub 1m30 times really comfortably with ice. but that's ultimate ST perf anyways, i guess. the 2m time break is mostly because i'm guesstimating after the timer runs out - it's usually a second or two after or like, close. i really was hoping being able to sub in fireball over fire blast would've helped, but it actively makes the time worse. it's pretty annoying!

dark/fire/cold dom t3 core muscle, core degen, radial assault (off), t4 core ageless only ran 2 quick tests with this, but yeah. threw this together after feeling like trying something different. 1:55 1:43 edit: ran 2 more during lunch 1:47 1:38 pretty sure i can get sub 1;30 with t4s and some more clever building/glass cannoning all the way but ehhh. still not happy with the live play power-wise - might end up switching to fire just for fireball already had permadom up and umbral beast out. timer started on casting ageless, which is then followed up by sleet->haunt->build up (or whatever the dom ver is called)-> ice rain into just chaining blaze->blazing bolt->the dark hold w/ all procs and the dominator +dmg proc using fire blast or blaze to fill in gaps whenever i can re-apply sleet when it's up, same w/ domination, haste, other shit this feels like one of those ones where the ST damage check in pylon testing isn't actually THAT useful because it assume all pets will be alive and the likelihood of that is pretty low since the dog and shades will usually explode upon any AV doing any AOE near them. the build also has an issue in live play because it doesn't have any solid AOE options so without constant application of controls you just explode because attacks will eventually pierce the 45% def softcap and ream you build mostly copied from this thread: with some slight tweaks - swapped out ragnarok for positron's blast because i'm cheap and shifting some slotting around to get annihilation into sleet and the dmg proc into the hold edit 2: got t4 muscle thanks to a lucky trial run ran a few more tests: 1:30 1:28 1:24 1:32 1:58 (no dog) 2:02 (no dog) 1:22