Kanil

haha, yeah. i really dislike mace from a conceptual/thematic level and love battle axe for that exact reason. i ended up switching up my main character from a warmace character to the battle axe character earlier due to that specifically. it's one of those things where it's comforting to know that it's pretty likely that i have the strongest build for that and do more damage than basically anything besides a tw/bio character. anyhow, here's the build: the string itself is just jawbreaker->clobber->shatter over and over again. the proc rate for force feedback is good enough, but since there's potential gaps without some recharge enhancements i used the dam/rech and acc/dam/rech purples on clobber and shatter to make sure they form a tight string regardless of whether ff fires off or not. this means you get to use the ridiculously stupid strong string AND get the benefit of having build up fire off more and hasten be extremely-more-than-permanent (like, 20s to spare on the average every refresh?) i know a lot of people would be uncomfortable with the def/res as there are genuine pretty big holes there, but it's one of those things where a single purple mostly accounts for that weakness and bio armor's ridiculous absorb click powers synergize with the FF procs firing off so hard. purples are easy to come by, and defense debuff can be accounted for by cranking your resists and just killing the enemies faster than they kill you with your double absorb clickies. you just gotta watch out for that psi hole, which will wreck the hell out of you. also as an aside, i tested a fortunata build and was getting 3:30~ pylon times using follow up->lunge->procced out dominate (5x procs) and psychic wail with gladiator's fury in it. it's kind of annoying that their ST damage is that low, but i guess that's the tradeoff for having a nuke and everything else. it really makes me wonder just how bad night widows are since they don't get build up AND follow up while fortunatas get to use aim and follow up. the disconnect in power is absolutely bizarre - i just can't find a reason to ever actually pick night widows besides thematics as a choice between the two unlike banes and crabs.

i kinda had a thought, like 'wait, i should be able to retroactively apply the things that make that battle axe build really strong to mace since my mace build was pretty vanilla' and i did. so, here's a 1:15~ time for wm/bio. timer starts at 4s~ when siphon dna is hit. i'm not actually sure if i gain time with siphon dna vs. just doing the chain but i decided to test it like once and got that run, haha. the actual average of the mace was brought down by roughly 10s, so instead of averaging a solid 1:35 consistently, it averages a solid 1:25 pretty consistently now. with this run, i'm almost certain that mace would be able to break 1m with a good stroke of luck.

i was thinking about how broadsword shares most of the anims with ba/wm, and thought 'well, theoretically it should have the luxury of being able to be procced out given the -def component of the attacks to maybe even the score' so i tried out a build. took a lot of fiddling around, but it's not bad - luckily, broadsword's primary attacks have the same kd proc factor as ba/wm so i'm able to slot very similarly to the axe build. in terms of ST damage, it's heavily reliant on force feedback firing off despite the actual FF proc being less reliable than battleaxe's version due to the recharge time being slightly faster on broadsword than BA. that makes the standard time sit more around a 1m45-1m50s range with similar dips as wm/ba into the sub-1:30 range. the procs are pretty heavily spread, and i think there might be a better secondary chain (if ff doesn't go off) if i sacrifice boxing's slots/some def and super speed for slash but i can't be assed to respec and try it out. it's really bizarre to me that hack and slash have the exact same anim time despite one having half the recharge time. given that broadsword's version of crowd control/pendulum doesn't have any kd/kb component, it's probably worse in live play than the ba/wm builds but interesting to see as a thought experiment how far you can take things. bio armor definitely seems to level the playing field pretty well in a solo single target situation on all of the i0 weapon sets, which is nice. mace obviously still has the advantage in crowd control's 10 target cap but that's just gonna be a given since mace got a buff pass while neither BS nor BA did. it's really hilarious to me that this vid starts off with a miss, but i guess that's just RNG for you.

done. messed up the formatting a bit and forgot to include the archetype on some of the results, though.

well i couldn't resist so here's a test server axe/bio run. thematically, axe is my favorite set so it hurts to know axe is significantly weaker from a numerical standpoint on paper due to not having clobber and slower anim times. given the SS build before, i wanted to try and leverage what strengths axe has with it's version of shatter being stronger and it's ability to be slotted for knockback IOs on all it's attacks and got some surprising results. t4 muscle, t4 degen, t4 ageless, t4 assault hybrid (non-active) it's more variable than war mace but generally still pretty stable. has a slightly lower average time (like 1m45s) vs mace's but in exchange it has some potential for really hilarious lucky streaks and might even be stronger in live play because of the nature of the high recharge of the build combined with force feedback/damage procs firing off on basically every single major swing. i had a run that i didn't record that was like 56-59s with extreme amounts of luck, to where crit strikes procced off every single build up (and gaussian proccing every time too) and i spent a bit chasing that dragon but to no avail. there's some more slotting that can likely be done to make this build even more jacked up because whirling axe has FF but not cleave (or whatever axe's version of crowd control is) since i put a superior avalanche in there. it might be possible to just permanently sit around 250-280% recharge when doing regular stuff, with a 13s~ or so recharge time on build up

okay, i rebuilt my fire/bio char after learning about a better string (aka how godawful greater fire sword is) and played around with some slotting and adding a fuckton of procs to fire sword. i originally naturally had 182% recharge but had to sacrifice a lot of it to crank out damage - that 20% lost recharge doesn't really sting thanks to the strings still being pretty loose. the average time is definitely on the weaker end of the melee sets i've played, sitting at around a 1:50 - i'd be very surprised if it were possible to dip into sub-1:30 with how it's laid out, but at a sheer output level it's pretty good when considering that the only -res in this is from melt armor+heel proc. i know people really like incinerate but i honestly hate the 4s burn window a lot. i think it sucks in live play on boss-level enemies since you usually want to alpha strike/mulch them as fast as possible! once again, this one has music so probably mute it. the journey in bio armor scrapping continues - not sure if there's many other sets i really want to play in terms of melee stuff besides battle axe, but i really can't imagine battle axe being decent in a high-end environment

here's a 1:30 on kat/bio scrapper. t4 core muscle, t3 core degen, t4 radial assault t4 core ageless . i had to ask in the scrapper channel for the right slotting and attack chain to really get this right - was pulling 2m~ times with crit strikes on SD, but it seems that GD is the right place to put it after all due to how crazy GC is. i completely underestimated gambler's cut - i'm not quite sure why it procs so often given it's rech/anim time... might have to experiment more with that to reduce times, maybe. either way, just doing GD/GC/SD/GC over and over seems to be the key once you've got high enough recharge. this is another one of those sets with annoyingly high variation. this is the lowest it got, but the median for the times was closer to the 1m50 mark, with the average probably pulling at a 1m45~ or so. it finally made me realize the obvious thing of 'oh, sets that have a high dps due to low anim times are probably naturally going to have higher variance across the board because they have more chance to miss'. sorry for the music, just wanted somethin' besides the game sound fx playing.

so in my completely unscientific testing of 'throw myself at pylons and see what the general time to kill is' it's roughly about a 30-45 second loss (as in, slower) on pylon times for bio/ss tankers on test vs live for ST damage using a non-jab string (on test) vs jab-included string on live on a proclord build. i don't know why it's such a drastic loss but yep. maybe i need to optimize my string more, but honestly on my live tests i was just freeballin it throwing jabs as gap fillers anyways so yeah that's cool

i really don't get how people are like 'yeah but bruising sucks because of the level gap' like it's not also applying to every other source of -res in the game and good in the hands of other folks like that. maybe i just don't understand the -res system, like does it work differently for bruising on tanks or something? many of the -res powers in the game on non-defenders do -22.5% res, and it ends up averaging down to the same -13~% as bruising when applied to +3/+4 enemies. this includes stuff like melt armor, enervating field, distruption field, acid mortar (though this stacks per pet like sleet so this is maybe a bad example) and anguishing cry - all fantastic powers in their respective sets, even outright 'signature' this is just something i've noticed when power analyzing everything that i've fought for so long in an obsession in seeing -res numbers (on cold dom and traps defender) - bruising seems like it's 'minor' because you think 'oh, it's only 13% realistically' but it's contributing equally as much as some of the capstone -res powers in many power sets given common situations where it'd actually be useful (ie fighting AVs on a team, or EBs solo, even) someone please explain it to me because i don't understand statements in the vein of "you must have brain damage if you think bruising is good" under the context of just lookin at -res contributions on my support chars in literally every single AV/GM fight they go into edit: also i figure i'll throw together some average pylon times to see how bad of a nerf the same bio/ss tanker build i used for the pylon times thread got hit once i stop bein' lazy and throw that char together on the test server. it's really funny in hindsight thinking about how i made that character on live in excitement at the tanker patches of Big Footstomp and Cool SS Damage guess jumpin' the gun is always a fool's errand

i had to do an obligatory footstomp check, it's affected with the nerfed radius of 10ft so it's basically just back to what the regular radius is right now

so, i was inspired by the giant writeup by sir myshkin to try out a bio/ss tank on the live servers (not the test tanker buff build) and ended up having my own tweaks to the build he had posted very early on in the tank proc thread for a tad bit more of recharge and survivability/resist. and, uh, well, i ended up with this. bio/ss tank, t4 core muscle, t4 core ageless, t3 core degen (-75% regen), t4 assault hybrid. one of the things that bothers me about ss times when actually testing them out is that you're actually starting off by testing with doublerage on, rather than starting from 0. it sort of feels like cheating because you're not going from 0-100 as part of the test, even though SS is generally gonna have sustained doublerage anyways. anyhow, that's the best result i had out of like roughly 10 tests, with 5 using hybrid on and 5 using hybrid off. one of the biggest shocks is just how stable the results were despite the crash factoring into the active time midway/twice through. with hybrid on, i got between 1m56s and 2m8s - generally pretty stable! with hybrid off, my times were from a 2m28s to a 2m45s. note that the 2m45s was a very high outlier, as a large majority of the previous tests i did sat the mode result at 2m30s or 2m31s on the dot, and the other 3 test results from this run doing the same. in comparison to his results from the previous post: it's interesting to see that the overall range is relatively similar despite the changes in damage/gauntlet. i'm... not quite sure how i feel about that because it then suggests that tankers might be losing out on a pretty large support role for a vaguely insignificant change in damage when considering ss? i don't know, but my string includes adding jab and punch a whole bunch to add the -res and fill gaps so i'm surprised things are still roughly even at a ST level? overall, i'm pretty happy with the results but something feels 'weird' to where the set itself doesn't feel as effective as the pylon numbers would suggest while in live play. i'm not really sure why that is, but it bugs me quite a bit. thinking about the -regen on offensive mode, i might consider using that while the rage crash happens to see if i can lower my time.

wm/bio because it's basically just slightly less good tw/bio in terms of output and nobody plays it so i get to feel like a special snowflake still you have similar-ish output to TW without any of the awkward feeling downtime or drawbacks of the momentum system when they do pop up. it doesn't run the risk of being nerfed like TW, and it's monstrously stable at the expense of not being as dynamic (and fun) to play as TW. whiffed clobber? no problem! just shatter! whiffed shatter? no problem, just jawbreaker! got a crowd around you? hit that crowd control! that whiffs? hit shatter or whirling mace, and then crowd control again! i genuinely don't understand why it's so good in comparison to all the other weapon sets, it's so bizarre. multiple superior damage attacks, an absolutely outrageous extreme damage attack.. nonstop knockup/knockdown/stun on stuff.. i actually have no idea how this set and BA were even supposed to be comparable when BA is so lackluster. i'd be very curious to see how SS on a scrapper performed vs. WM for battle of second place, honestly - i've got this gut feeling that SS might lose out just 'cuz of it's lack of stability/smoothness from it's crash in comparison to WM just hitting buttons edit: the crazy part is, i think i get why mace isn't played that much- and it's just that... well, maces aren't as cool as axes! or swords! or katanas! if i could get battleaxe with the literal same output then i'd switch to that in a heartbeat!

so, i posted a thing in the plyon damage thread showing beam rifle's potential for damage for those more curious about a demonstration of it. so far i've only solo'd jack in irons and adamastor because i can't ever find the other gms but it's been pretty easy cruising. the inherent -regen in beam rifle definitely adds up vs. that GM health - it's about equivalent to tossing an envenomed dagger in yoru string. it is a br/temp build but i'm honestly not sure how much the secondary comes into play for GM hunting specifically. the /temp part of it seems.. i dunno- it's probably good in teams (if nobody has or can use an envenomed dagger) but the amount that time stop and time wall add in terms of -regen is like... it's about the same as the degen part of single shot with 3x the animation time. so the /time component isn't really necessary at all for the gm meltathon. the big part of BR is how you can really feel the lack of aoes though, and that's where i think things really help out because end of time is a comedically good pbaoe. after having a generally top-end dual pistol and assault rifle char, beam rifle is a very nice change of pace because those two powersets are so middling in comparison.

cool, cool. put in my wm/bio time for now, will probably add more later. the form is missing dual blades otherwise i woulda put in my current test in: db/bio scrapper, 1:21~, t4 muscle (core), t4 ageless (core), t3 degen (core), t3 assault (radial) i assume this is around the best possible outcome for this build because the range on testing is still drastic. i guess it wasn't a quirk of fire armor after all and just how DB works. like, my total range is a 1:18 lowest to 2:15~ highest. i don't know -why- there's such a potential disparity using the exact same string over and over. there's no like, stable point with outliers as well, it's just all over the place in general. it's kind of frustrating to see it all over the place because it only really gains traction in a long and sustained string against a single target. in live play, it just feels 'less' than war mace still due to war mace being more stable across the board and being able to spike up it's damage output ASAP with the build up + proc into CC ->whirling mace combo. i had also tested out a fire/bio armor character but their output wasn't up to snuff so i ended up canning them before i got any footage. the average time for that was like, close to 3m with the lowest range being 2m25s~ or so. fire melee just feels... lacking? i dunno.

yeah, i did see that but the big thing that throws me off is the bonus damage and DOT from the disintegration mechanic- it seems like maximizing lancer shot is where a lot of the juice is at given the additional heavy DOT damage from that bonus on top of the general bonus damage on penetrating ray. ill have to check out adding some procs to see if i can really crank up the damage on stuff, though given i have so much extra recharge sitting around in the build.

so, here's a vid for beam rifle/temporal manipulation with a 2:32 time. in multiple attempts it usually averages that 2:35~ range, with the far extreme slow end being like 2:45~ and the fast end being 2:20~. i put the tildes there because i measured using the recovery on ageless, which i'd pop immediately. so maybe a bit slower than that since it's a real rough estimate. since there's no established BR attack chain it took me a bit to try and figure out what was 'optimal', and i'm pretty sure i still haven't reached it yet. generally going between disintegrate->lancer shot->sniper ray->penetrating shot as a starter and then doing the same chain sans disintegrate twice seems to be ideal since that's how much you can do the chain and still get the full disintegration bonuses before needing to re-apply the attack. on top of that, managing aim and build up so they are constantly active on top of each other rather than stacking both at once seems to produce substantial effects as well- doing the same string while applying both instead of juggling the two would shoot up my times to around the 2:50-3:10~ marker. generally any 'lesser' attack string would do the same too. i'm surprised adding 'charged shot' to the end of the loop there pushed the times that high too given the additional -75% regen it has (and the force feedback proc i have on it shortening the bu/aim timing) but i guess that's the nature of those attacks.

thanks the writeup! i'm sure you get asked the question like a million times, so i appreciate ya going into detail about it and showing vids for it. i'll have to check out the tank proc thread- i've only recently started dipping into considering frankenslotting procs thanks to trying to squeeze performance out of dual pistols blasting, so it's great to see someone go super in-depth into it in testing and mapping that stuff out since it takes a lot of 'theory' off the table, when you can see the results. as an aside, i'm still thinking about db/bio as a test - given just how often critical strikes gets a chance to proc with blinding feint and how much sheer +dmg you get running a non-moonbeam string, it feels like that combination might be able to fly close to TW if you build it right and have the right string (there's no way it's not just BF->SS->AS, i guess?)

what's with the low difference between the times on a tanker and brute? is it related to the damage scaling change or more how the majority of the damage is coming from procs and 2x rage? whenever i see proc-related builds, i'm usually thinking about the loss in set bonuses too. i've honestly never played SS because i really hate the idea of dealing with the crash but was thinking about doing so if the beta changes go through as a change of pace. how do the other numbers generally look for that build? with bio, you're running two recharge-intensive powers to really keep you extra alive (parasitic and abalative) and assuming you're trying to be optimal overall, the crash highly damages your survivability if not for those powers adding a monstrous amount of absorption - is it one of those deals where you can get away only putting procs in like, 2 powers (ko blow and gloom?) and then get away with it because the procs are so good, or are you potentially sacrificing 4 sets of bonuses (20-40% rech?) to keep that in balance so you can keep attacking while the crash is happening. idk how much test you've done in livefire scenarios but i usually end up using this stuff as a measure for avmelting in live play so i was curious since i really want to like SS otherwise, haha anyhow, here's the best time i have db/fire scrapper i've had for awhile. i'm actually really bothered by how bad the the time is relative to /bio scrapping - you'd think the additional -res proc and the extra build up on top of DB's nonstop bonus 100% damage from blinding feint would help bridge the gap but it still doesn't. i'll have to try a db/bio at some point because the difference between this and wm/bio seems really extreme when considering just how much extra stuff warmace has in comparison to db's moves. the variance on times is extremely high too- unlike wm, where most of my results ended up around 1:35, this can vary from 1:35 to 2:20 easily. it's really annoying, and i don't really quite grasp the 'why' - i assume it's possibly related to the moonbeam proc making a massive difference alongside the general lack of control when the build up on building feint fires off. note the disclaimer that i have the superbase +recovery and +kb protect buffs on because this thing's endurance drain actually beats out ageless's recovery with a full IO set (pancea, miracle, perf shifter) and fire armor's total lack of kb protection. just more stuff on the pile that's annoying about this build.

let me hail of bullets 50 targets instead of 16 if i die by getting sneezed on while superman gets to eat nuclear bombs to the face without flinching while killing everyone around him

mind you, this is basically the best possible result with the crit going off nonstop and like maybe three or so whiffs total. the actual average is more around a 1:35. i really hate that the most optimal string i've found so far is just the 3 strongest attacks in a row over and over. i was really hoping to fit in the t2 since it's so fast but it apparently is suboptimal vs just lettin them rock edit: forgot the incarnate stuff. it's t4 core muscle, t4 radial assault, t4 ageless the one you always pick, t3 degen -regen

TW/BIO Brute t4 muscle core, t4 degen core, t4 ageless core, t4 assault radial my time's 1:40 (or so?). generalist build that's built around content so it's got pretty good def/res/rech as well. edit:initially uploaded wrong vid w/ slower time, roughly 1m52s or so? high variation from whiffing/starting position changing string/time. i think the starting position of being next to the pylon vs. not changes a lot for TW due to losing out on a FT during the initial BM string slower time example: my string is separated into two basic strings i try to follow w/ some adaptation depending on how the followups go Build Momentum String: BM, FT, RA, AoD, FT, CB, RA, FT into Regular string: CB, FT, RA, AOD, FT depending on the followup/whiffs and when BM recharges ( don't pop BM mid-string only pop it where you would use FT anyways) i can change the string to the alternate ones, which you see me do. alternate BM string: FT, RA, CB, FT, AOD, CB, RA, FT my momentum-builder move (aka CB) whiffs i immediately supplement it by hitting titan sweep instead and keep going w/ the string i have a STJ/EA stalker that gets like 2m30-2m40 times that i'm pretty bothered by tbh because i saw that 1m40s time early in the thread and have been just tryin to wrap my head around how to crank my damage that high w/ StJ on a stalker, haha